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Offlinejust_curious
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I think I have ADD/ADHD.
    #23713506 - 10/06/16 03:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I went to a mental health type provider today to try to get some answers. I feel as if I have been very distracted more than usual. I've been forgetting A LOT of stuff for the last year. At first it was things to laugh at like "oh man, how the hell did I forget that!" But now it is an everyday occurance, multiple times per day. Anybody that strikes a conversation with me, I don't really pay attention, I'm not completing tasks I start, and if I'm given instructions to complete a task, I either didn't pay attention during the block of instructions, or immediately forget them. It's to the point where my wife and co-workers are noticing. As a child, from like pre-K to 2nd or 3rd grade, all my teachers told my mom that they think I have it and should get tested. My mom just thought "kids are supposed to act like that." And I thought the same way, until all of this. I was disruptive, got in trouble, got bad grades, etc. as a child. It's like it's all starting to fit together.

When I talked to a counselor today, she didn't do anything for me. I have to schedule a different appointment to get a biography of me so they can better help me I guess. I'm just concerned. I feel like I already know what the answer is in my heart, but what if they don't think so. They were asking me if I was stressed or depressed, etc. I don't have a reason to be. This whole lack of concentration has been giving me anxiety, and maybe a little bit of lack of enjoyment in doing things, and lack of emotional connection, but I don't think it's anything big. It's because I'm thinking about this shit. My mind is always going crazy. I guess you could call it day dreaming. At least, that's how it was put to me today. I just figured my mind was racing. One thought will lead to another, and another, etc. I go very deep into thought. Especially when I'm talking to somebody, watching a movie, attempting to read (which also takes me FOREVER). What do you guys think that have dealt with this.


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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: just_curious]
    #23722008 - 10/09/16 12:22 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

sounds like ADD to me. if the doctors don't give you medication, just proof that you can get very very medicated for no good reason (gotta cram a few nights of study!) but then can't get medicated for...reasons.

so i hope you can find some help.


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Offlinejust_curious
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #23722154 - 10/09/16 01:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you for your input. I'm hoping somebody actually diagnosed with ADD or ADHD can provide me some insight into their minds so I can either support or shut down my thought on it. But right now, it isn't looking good.


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Offlinebigdoodie
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: just_curious]
    #23726834 - 10/10/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Mushrooms are known to have negative affects on our memories. Just Google it, youll save a lot of money I'm sure


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Offlinebigdoodie
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: bigdoodie]
    #23726848 - 10/10/16 10:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Also, those disorders are not real, they are labels used to create a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist, we are addicted to distractions, the best thing to do is to step away from earthly things for awhile and get comfortable with sitting in silence all day without any distractions. A strong consciousness can prevent Alzheimers in the future, people are just so careless.


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OfflineEDM
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: bigdoodie]
    #23756347 - 10/20/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Bump. I would like to see more opinions, information on this topic.


--------------------
Yahweh is lying to you... I will show you the way. Trust me.




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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: bigdoodie] * 1
    #23756575 - 10/20/16 11:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

bigdoodie said:
Also, those disorders are not real, they are labels used to create a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist, we are addicted to distractions, the best thing to do is to step away from earthly things for awhile and get comfortable with sitting in silence all day without any distractions. A strong consciousness can prevent Alzheimers in the future, people are just so careless.



no. there are physiological reasons for these disorders. they are not just mental productions from living in society. and they are not just labels that don't exist. if someone has a problem, they seek a solution; these labels arise out of the instance of people finding those solutions, and those postulating that the problem exists, and they then give it a label to help define it, which helps people recognize the problem easier.

you can't safely project your beliefs onto a patient who isn't exhibiting those defined effects of a specific problem, so how could one help anyone with said problem if no one knows how to look for it, or what exactly the problem seems to entail, on a general basis, in medicine? without a label, you're working blind.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23756747 - 10/21/16 01:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

What we don't wish to experience we call a "problem"

What we resist and run from we call a "problem"

Our only problem is that we create our problems.


We can get cancer or be on death row and maintain our peace of mind.

(If we have the perspectives and skills to do so)

Suffering isn't a disorder. It causes great harm to label people as such.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23756786 - 10/21/16 02:03 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

yeah but sometimes problems are actual problems and not just metaphorical ones :rolleyes: RJ.

yes, cancer...:rolleyes: just...forget about cancer, you'll be fine...you realize you're simply reciting the adages of Stoicism, right?

and no one said "suffering is a disorder".

we're talking about attn. deficit disorder -- of which there are several sub-types.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23756806 - 10/21/16 02:23 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

(I never recommended one should "forget" about their cancer, or their broken toe)

Cancer is only a problem if you decide it is. Death is a problem if you decide it is.

Isn't it crazy how we call things we don't want to experience "problems"?

Have you seen the bumper stickers and t-shirts that say "FUCK CANCER"?!

That's absolutely rip-roaring hilarious. As if cancer is trying to kill us!

OP says the belief they're abnormal has created anxiety. Dead on bulls-eye!


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23756821 - 10/21/16 02:32 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

i have no anxiety about my condition/constitution. :shrug: i don't take medication, and i know that i could use medication, because i could use medication to help me concentrate better, in accordance with what is expected of me in the real world...now those expectations might not be rational, or even natural, but my real world effect of not being able to concentrate on these piddling concerns (which truly don't concern me, but yet, if i don't live up to expectations, i don't eat) is an actual concern to me, because i need to preform at my best to settle people's expectations. i might not like it...but that doesn't mean the medication cannot help me.

please, stow your stoicism. you're trying to boil down the absolute of existence into easy equations so that YOU don't feel YOUR OWN anxiety -- all whilst insisting that people's problems aren't real. quite ironic.


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OfflineThey
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23763181 - 10/23/16 03:58 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Dude, you choose your own interpretations of the situation, my story here is that you 100% absolutely do NOT have ADHD, and all you have is an untrained attention, self-distracting behaviors that most people do when they have emotional stuff they'd rather not deal with.

I have a couple of things I can recommend you do, and they should in fact be quite helpful, reducing symptoms and also giving you clues as to what the deeper underlying issue is.

Please realize that the more you buy into the ADHD story, the more likely you are to find a doc that believes you have it, confirms this for you, and to my knowledge, what Western medicine does in this case is prescribe you speed. That is the story, that's where this goes.

My story is that you have attentional problems, that stem from a constant avoidance of something deeper. You are instinctively cultivating a fast Beta brainwave range (mental chatter, restless thoughts, racing mind) in order to avoid the slower brainwaves that would reveal your emotional issues, that maybe you don't like the job as you once did, or the house, or the relationship with the wife or kids (if you have any).

I don't at this stage know which one it is, and that's not the point. The point is that you can choose between shallow, "modern" medicine analysis that likely ends in daily speed use, OR you can choose the more med-free and deeper approach, that looks at the root cause of these matters, and may involve a longer process than just going to a doc for a prescription. I highly recommend this latter path but it's up to you.

Should you decide on this latter course, here are the exercises to try:

1. Active focus of the mind. Sit down somewhere where you do have a good 15-20 minutes of no interruptions. Phone off, everything off. Room of the house works, parked car works as well, but make sure it's away from traffic. Put a timer for 15-20 minutes, close eyes and start following the breath. Fidget and scratch as much as you want, that is fine, but do keep those eyes closed, and breathe. Actively make sure you are breathing. Focus on both the temperature and feel of air as it enters / exits nostrils, AND listen to yourself breathe. Get the ears engaged.

Since you start from fast-brainwaves these days, this may initially feel UNBEliEVABLY boring. Read any Buddhist meditation stuff and they speak exactly of this, that a mind used to always processing fast-paced external stimuli, or to give out verbal chatter, when you close all that jazz down, will want to find other things at that same fast pace, and in this practice it won't find it. But do it. Try it every day for a week. Do this, 20 mins a day won't kill you. Do it, and compare how you are on day 3 compared to day 1. Do use the timer, to eliminate need to open eyes look at watch, or to wonder how long this takes. YOu know how long. 20 minutes. Close eyes, make sure you breathe. Observe the breath as-is, no need for it to be deep or slow or in any particular way. If you fidget, pardon my French, like a motherfucker, then that's OK, observe the fidgeting.


2. This one involves the wife. It is a MUCH more accelerated version of the first one, it's my own discovery, and it should give you some quite interesting results if attempted :smile:

The exercise goes like this:
Be in a room with the wife, preferably bedroom. Quiet, phones off. TV off. Everything off. The exercise involves avoidance of speaking and also avoidance of large area electric contact. So you guys are there, clothed or not (doesn't matter) and the idea is to not have third party attention stealers (books, TV, phone, computer) and also not dispel the electric stuff that happens internally inside humans, via things like full body hugs, just laying there on each other. Keep eyes either closed or on each other, and play with fingers for instance. Small electric contact surface. Focus intently on just one contact point between the two bodies. Or close eyes, touch fingertips and follow the sensations that move through the finger contact areas. You'll see things happening quite fast.

Just get in there, put a timer for again, 15-20 minutes, and be there together, no-talking, no TV, no book, nobody throwing attention outside, but keeping it right here, right now. YOU WILL see effects, you WILL see emotions rise up, most likely in both, and this non-verbal situation will force tactile expression of some sort. THAT will be what you need to get at. The emotions, the blockages, whatever comes. Do this at least 2-3 times this week, if you can do it every day I'd be amazed. Also, it will be REALLY obvious who has any intimacy issues, because they'll either interrupt contact during those 20 minutes, OR will find reasons to avoid future sessions during the week. Since we know that everybody has 20 minutes for the spouse in a whole day, that will show exactly who's avoiding what in that relationship.

If the real issue is work related, past-related or anything like that, it doesn't matter, it WILL come up during one of these two exercises. Try it, report back, then if this doesn't work go do ADHD, doctors, speed pills :smile:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: They]
    #23763203 - 10/23/16 04:17 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

no, actually i have a greatly trained attention -- i just have nothing worth focusing on outside of my own work. :shrug:

i have no self-distracting behaviors -- i have interests with which i pursue that fly in face of the expectations people make for me. :shrug:

i have no emotional stuff i have to deal with -- i have existential quandaries, at best.

i do not have mental chatter. my mind is literally without chatter, lest i formulate it.

i do not have restless thoughts. i have an open-awareness of mind; the only time i have any problems with this is when i sleep.

and i do not have a racing mind: i have a considerably slow mind.

so this shows how much you know about ADD.

and also: i've gone the straight approach...i don't take meds, like i said.

so....? what now?

dude, your theory does not make sense. my emotions arise in me quite frequently and ably.


Edited by akira_akuma (10/23/16 04:22 AM)


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OfflineThey
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #23763273 - 10/23/16 05:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

akira, I know my post came right after yours but all I wrote was meant as reply to the OP, just to clarify :smile:

If you wish to get into that, I am curious, what makes you think you have ADD, as in, that your attention functions somehow differently than others'? Just give me your direct personal experience, not descriptions / definitions written by others elsewhere.

To me your posts look like very much regular attention was used to type them :smile:


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Offlinejust_curious
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: They] * 1
    #23763727 - 10/23/16 10:07 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think that everybody has ADD to a certain extent. However, when it starts effecting your performance at work, relationship/communication with family, etc. then there is an issue. That's what I am going through. I don't believe it's stress or anxiety. I think it's my attention is elsewhere. I don't listen to people when they are talking to me. I forget to do key things that need to be done. They may be little things (usually they are), but at the end of the day, they add up. It's frustrating to watch your performance slip. As I said, all my teachers suggested to my mom that I may have it. The warning was Ignored, even by me. The majority of my adulthood so for hasn't been an issue either. When it starts getting seen as an adult is when you start handling more responsibilities. You become unorganized, drop the ball on stuff, day dream a lot, ignore direction, etc. It's not like I am purposely trying not to pay attention. I will be talking to somebody, then something is said to think of something else. While I'm thinking of that, something reminds me of something else. Next thing I know, I'm down the rabbit hole in thoughts with no idea of what the original convo was. It's also the forgetfulness. It's little things like, I will be at a stop light, notice the gas station, know that I need to stop at the gas station, then blow right past it. Or, go to the grocery store for specifically one thing, and then end up getting everything besides what I came there for. Like I said, it's not major things, it's cumulative things through out the day that I forget or not pay attention to. I'm caught in my own little world inside my head 95% of the time. Don't get me wrong, I'm still successful, but I spend a lot of time reacting as opposed to getting it right the first time. Pretty much a "fake it till you make it" situation every day.


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OfflineThey
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: just_curious] * 1
    #23763928 - 10/23/16 11:05 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Dude this is so fresh, this info you give here, it is absolutely awesome. Hopefully the reply will clarify why :smile:

Quote:

just_curious said:
I think that everybody has ADD to a certain extent. However, when it starts effecting your performance at work, relationship/communication with family, etc. then there is an issue.



This I will agree with. Abso-freaking lutely. 100% :yesnod:

My only difference in thinking is this: IF everybody has it to a certain extent, and IF it affects you at some times more than others, then I say, that it is in fact a VARIABLE trait, and furthermore you have control of how active it is at different times. Like a skill, an ability. The ability to de-focus, to attention-scatter. It's a way to explore for OTHER things, than the right-here right-now, and playing free-association games in the head. Very useful, when engaged with proper timing, very disrupting when engaged at random times mid-convo.

Where it REALLY starts to be a problem, is when you keep doing this thing more and more and say (or give yourself the idea) that it does itself, outside of your control.

Quote:

That's what I am going through.



Right here. This part is the meat of the matter. As Alan Watts says, do you do it, or does it do you? :smile:

I say this because I TOO have notice I do THAT EXACT STUFF YOU DO, at certain times more than others. I've lost sometimes important objects, dear to me, and of course if you ask me in the heat of the moment I'll say it wasn't intentional, I loved that thing, but after the fact I'm clear about me CHOOSING to allow my mind to go un-disciplined, haywire, choosing not to give a shit with which kind of focus I approach that situation. If that makes sense, kind of like drunks choose to not give a shit about the consequences of their drinking.

Having spent years observing both myself and others at length, both on shrooms and off, especially after meditation retreats to quiet the mind, I have noticed that EVERYBODY does this, when they're not particularly fascinated with what's going on before them, right then and there. Go watch some kids in church, or some husbands that don't want to be there, you'll see HALF the church has something a lot of ADHD-like behavior, a large percentage of the time. I say it's not ADHD at all, it's just the fact that the shit is BORING, and if they had half a backbone they'd realize and own it, and at the very least change churches, become a Baptist, at least they sing more, it's got more rhythm :lol:

Now this is the bit that is super fascinating to me, that to the extent that you DO this ADHD thing ABOUT THIS VERY POST, you will in fact skip important-yet-uncomfortable parts of the post, because it's easier to NOT own it, if this allows you to maintain the "I'm not doing this, it's being done TO ME, I CAN'T CONTROL THIS" type of attitude.

But make no mistake, THIS is the meat of the matter. How much control you believe you have about the widening or narrowing of your attention. And as a meditator I can tell you that is INCREDILBY flexible and trainable.

... unless you say "Ah, but ADHD people CAN'T train this, because they have this condition, this disease, that makes their attention go wildly randomly out of control" :lol:  (to which I would call bullshit, and say it's just an excuse to not even try and do the work at all :wink: )

Quote:

I don't believe it's stress or anxiety.



We shall see, to the extent that you take the time to actually do the exercises described in my first post, and then see what comes up during them.

Note that you've made this judgment in your head, "I don't BELIEVE I'm stressed or anxious" but WITHOUT having taken a good strong half hour to really sit and notice, what's REALLY going on beyond the immediate surface. Very easy to delude yourself into any idea you wish, for a brief amount of time. Not so easy to do so for say, half an hour. Sit down, see if you can spend 20-30 minutes with yourself, no external stimulation, and not start shaking and coming apart at the seams, and then you'll have a very precise image of how stressed or anxious you are, and also about what, if anything :smile:

Remember that WHOEVER avoids taking the time to do that, is precisely who has the intimacy problems. If it's you, then you have some intimacy problems, basically with yourself :smile:

Quite common, we all have it, no exception, and I believe that's the game, that's why we get into psychedelics and meditation, to reestablish that connection with ourselves. Only the moment you say you can't (without trying) or won't (as it's too boring to do) then fine, you've basically decided to avoid yourself some more, and you can do this for as many lifetimes as you wish. But your experience of life will be rather superficial, and plagued with this forgetful mind-elsewhere-ness, because in order to avoid yourself, you kind of have to play a risky game of not paying attention.That game will spread to other things, external objects, errands, not just yourself, the here-and-now.

The lost objects, tasks and stuff, are an expression of just how much attention you've been paying to the present moment, and where you've been over-extending, trying to juggle too many attentional balls at the same time. THe ones you can't handle, slip. And it's not a disease, to be unable to juggle 7 balls at a time, it's just a lack of training in that direction, maybe one should master 3 and 4 and 5 balls instead, then see about more.

Quote:

I think it's my attention is elsewhere.



Okay. I know. And agree. Question is where?

Avoid "I don't know" answers, pardon my French, like the fucking plague :lol:

Quote:


I don't listen to people when they are talking to me.



Some people more than others? Notice and explore this. Who do you zone out most with? Where? Work? Friends as well? Same amount at work as with friends or family?

Quote:

You become unorganized, drop the ball on stuff, day dream a lot, ignore direction, etc. It's not like I am purposely trying not to pay attention. I will be talking to somebody, then something is said to think of something else. While I'm thinking of that, something reminds me of something else. Next thing I know, I'm down the rabbit hole in thoughts with no idea of what the original convo was.



Ok but I'd say the MUCH more important question is what was the daydream about?

Have you noticed that some people are WAY easier to follow than others? Some you like, they draw you in, others, either they talk too fast, or ramble on forever, or they just come at you with chores or their voice is annoying, and even if they're your boss or coworker, there's a certain "Ah, fuck this, BOOOOOOOOORING" attitude forming inside your head, which I would say is completely appropriate with these people?

Could that be the case, at least some of the time?

Quote:

It's also the forgetfulness. It's little things like, I will be at a stop light, notice the gas station, know that I need to stop at the gas station, then blow right past it. Or, go to the grocery store for specifically one thing, and then end up getting everything besides what I came there for.



This is just bad organizing, failing to write down list. We all do it, not a medical condition at all.

See how aircraft pilots have A TON of checklists, because THEY KNOW things slip through the cracks, all the fucking time. THey KNOW that we all have a somewhat reliable memory, but not fully. Make more lists dude, get organized, or get more intense when you make the plan, more focused on the order of operations. Stop light. Start singing about gas stations. Make up a song, tap that on the steering wheel, get married to that gas station and impregnate it with your little red demon babies, not just briefly glance at its fine silky legs in passing :lol:

Quote:

Like I said, it's not major things, it's cumulative things through out the day that I forget or not pay attention to. I'm caught in my own little world inside my head 95% of the time.



You're not caught at all. You escape there, and things will fix themselves if you just take more time to actively explore that internal world better.

WHERE do you fly off to? WHAT is inside your own little world? Talk on that more, don't just try to medicate away from it like it's some disease.

Where do you zone out to, when things get uninteresting and not fascinating enough to stick around?

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, I'm still successful, but I spend a lot of time reacting as opposed to getting it right the first time. Pretty much a "fake it till you make it" situation every day.



Try the exercises dude, try for one week. 20 mins, won't kill you. Try in the morning, see how your day goes. Or try in the car right after work, stop somewhere, take a 10 minute break and take the present moment in. Body feeling, breath, where you are, just stop and be. Then go about your business, but DO have these islands of awareness, in an otherwise endless stream of busy doing.

Hope this helps :smile:


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Offlinejust_curious
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: They]
    #23764764 - 10/23/16 04:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Very good feed back. I shouldn't say I go places...more like never ending scenarios played out in my head. A word will trigger a thought. A word that comes across in the original thought will trigger a new thought. Next thing I know, I'm so far beyond the original convo or the first thought that came to be.

Believe me man, I used to think the same way. I hated when people would tell me "I think you have ADD". I would always blow them off. I always thought it was a cop out or an excuse. Work and friends don't bother me as much when I don't pay attention to them. What bothers me is I don't give my family the attention they deserve. I don't listen to my wife when she tries talking to me, I forget about plans we made, I don't pay/give my daughter attention, and ultimately I just don't feel any emotions towards ANYTHING. I hate the fact that I say that, but it's like I am so disconnected mentally and emotionally. And people can tell. For a while, I thought it was depression, but I just don't think that's the case. Its a lack of caring because I'm not in tuned and paying attention. I wouldn't say I do it to myself necessarily. I try really hard. However, I also had a fucked up child hood and sometimes chalk it up to that, but I don't think that's the case because I don't think about it. It is so hard to describe. I feel like I'm not even putting a dent into what I'm thinking as far as explaining it. Uggghhhhh, it's so frustrating!! Can anybody relate? I would love to think I'm just imagining it, but I have been asked my whole life if I've ever been diagnosed with ADD or ADHD. It could be that I don't pay attention because i don't care. I've had a few people (not too many) bring up the possibility that I am a narcissist or sociopath. Narcissist I could see, but not sociopath.....I'm going on a rant now, but I'm just trying to explain to the best of my abilities exactly what I am thinking. It is very hard.


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OfflineThey
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: just_curious]
    #23765024 - 10/23/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Its a lack of caring because I'm not in tuned and paying attention.



Good that you notice what's going on and how you do it.

I gave you two exercises that in fact WILL help you to do that, namely to pay attention. If you try them you will see what the real issues actually are. But you do have to set a timer and try.

I CAN relate to what you're saying. Really, and I do. I've seen that in my own head, I've seen it in others, I've been zoned out on mid-sentence while I was talking, early on I didn't even notice, but since I meditate now I am very focused when I talk to people, and I notice EVERY DAMN TIME when someone zones out, and can tell you MOST people do it. SOME do it a whole lot, and nutrition plays into it, general stress level with other stuff plays into it, the company you keep and how acceptable zoning out is, that plays into it, etc. I've seen couples where both partners are zoned out all the damn time, every second sentence has to be repeated, it's a mess. People do this stuff, it's not that uncommon.

I DO know what you're talking about.

We can talk here all day, until you take 20 mins to do one of those exercises (and I recommend starting with the first, focus breath eyes closed, alone) there's just not much left to say, we're talking in circles.

YOu are describing PRECISELY what meditation is designed to deal with, and having done it for a couple of years now, I can tell you it does work.

I'm amazed how most people live day in and day out in that head noise, that mental fidgety chaos, kinda like this:



Am saying I've been there, I find myself there still, sometimes, but it's no longer my baseline state, it's something I have to be triggered into, and it's less and less common that my head actually gets there.

Presence, focus on breath, eyes closed. OR, 20 minutes together with the wife, no distractions no talking. Do one or the other, to get some data of what actually comes up when you force presence. Or continue in this fidgety running around style you're in, but it's pretty predictable where that leads.

I have seen people where attention span was so low, anything beyond a few seconds they'd just zone out on. I've found that throwing a ball at them will snap them out of it pretty well, either when they catch it or when it hits them in the head :lol:

Have you tried something like this, to regain more presence? Team sports, tennis, any kind of sport in fact, where if you don't pay attention you have bad stuff happen to you :smile:

YOu would not believe how many excuses and avoidance behavior I've seen, when I propose to people that they spend 20 minutes in silence with themselves, eyes closed focused on breath. Am really hoping you'll not be another episode in that strange story :laugh:


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: They] * 1
    #23765393 - 10/23/16 09:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

They said:

Remember that WHOEVER avoids taking the time to do that, is precisely who has the intimacy problems. If it's you, then you have some intimacy problems, basically with yourself :smile:



You're offering some wise advice and perspectives.    Love the Alan Watts quote!

Blaise Pascal said, much suffering arises from an unwillingness and inability to sit quietly and be with ourselves alone.

Studies have shown many people would prefer to receive a slight electric shock than sit quietly with themselves.

Anxious rapid cognitive scanning is a highly adaptive evolutionary trait that has helped our species survive. 

Every hamster on the planet would be diagnosed with ADD by current "standards".


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OfflineThey
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Re: I think I have ADD/ADHD. [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23765820 - 10/24/16 01:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Studies have shown many people would prefer to receive a slight electric shock than sit quietly with themselves.



How very right you are. I would also add here the avoidance of sitting quietly with others, without talking, blabbering, throwing attention outwards (book, TV, window etc.)

The more I've meditated and increased my amount of presence, the more troubled people first come close as they sense the peace, then at a closer distance their own issues comes up, and their brain then does that rapid attention dispersal, target shifting, mid-sentence zoning out, it's absolutely awesome to behold. Also mirrors closely the avoidance game in birds. Observe the female here. Tell me this isn't PRECISELY what OP and any other ADHD "sufferer" out there is doing attentionally, as they avoid the present-at-hand:



For me I know this to be the case, as the parallels are so strong, it's ridiculous. Whenever opening up and continuing the convo would expose things about ourselves that we don't like exposed, there are parts of our head that kick in to trigger this precise style of inhibitory / avoiding / zoning out behavior. I've analyzed it on shrooms and Lucy, I've put years into observing this, sooo modern "medicine" can tell me all they want that it's a disease, it's not. It's a legit, context-dependent trait or ability or attentional style that we all have, and use as we feel appropriate.

Take away that suspicious unknown male from the picture, that female among its comfy friends is acting just fine, zero attention dispersal and avoidance. Put a new male in, WHAM! attention (eyes, ears) and behavior are 100% optimized for maintaining a certain minimum distance to whoever is trying to connect, to emotionally get in.

There's a conversational parallel to this in humans, I've made it my focus for a LONG time now, and have observe it quite thoroughly. Now things like meditation will show you where and why you or the other person puts in the gaps, zones out and avoids, you CAN make this stuff conscious, at which point you switch from zoning out and forgetting the question, or failing to hear the full sentence, to actively saying "I don't want to do this, this is uncomfortable for me because XYZ".

I have heard PLENTY of people who, when you ask direct yes/no questions, like DO YOU WANT TO (come for a walk, see a movie, do some drawing together) they think "no" in their minds, but previous conditioning, parents that didn't take no for an answer, taught them to not give it to you straight, you don't get a "no" - you get a "maybe" and a lot of avoidance, so that future questions in that directions are met with irritation, delays, zoning out, playing dumb etc. This is for the most part NOT conscious, and when pointed out it generally takes several convo lines to get to the real honest answer, which is "no". Notice that this not giving it straight strategy, is evolutionary useful, as for instance females use it to string along providers, with avoidance-maybe answers, that can keep a guy "in service" for months and years, still trying to connect, dumping in tons of attention and energy, only getting scraps in return.

So the metric here is "how many convo lines needed before getting a straight yes-no answer to a yes-no question." The more psychologically healthy and integrated someone is (At least on the topic being discussed) the more that distance will near zero. Do you want to? Yes. No. Both are fine.

What you see in emotionally more troubled people, where No was earlier NOT accepted as valid, is they will generally give you non-answers. "Maybe." Depending on what? "Different things". Like what? "I don't know, leave me alone!" - you can see how it's a "going in circles" situation here, evasive answers, you can sort of extrapolate and sense the "no" behind this stuff, but the fact that it's not spoken openly as a no, but you are made to dump more energy in to get it, that's a sort of a win-lose move, attempt to get you psychologically hooked in a sense, to string you along. Evolutionary, perhaps you can be fooled into throwing in two goats and a couple of ducks and candy, and THEN you can be given a "no, I'm going to want HIM instead" :laugh:

Even if you don't need anything from whoever's asking, a clear yes-no answer would commit you to a clear decision, and if there's some insecurity or anxiety there, if not sure, well you can always delay, zone out, ask "what" and now they have to repeat, you have more time to think, it also puts you in more of a position of power, because you've forced the other person to repeat themselves for you, and the irritation created decreases their energy level. 

THis is what OP is unconsciously doing, as others are trying to connect verbally with him. There are also benefits to doing this to people, it's a psychological win-lose interaction, win for the avoider lose for whoever puts extra time/energy/convo lines in trying to connect, and there are deep issues underlying this, issues which do become apparent during meditation or exercise 2 suggested here. Of course OP will do the same dance with the exercises, as the female pigeon does with the male :smile:

I repeat this is not done consciously nor intentionally, so am not accusing OP of planning this in any way, these are unconscious automatic processes.

Personally I've developed very effective ways of fixing this, really fast, and it's also inspired by the bird kingdom. I have a rule (which I am open about) that if I have to repeat myself, WHAM! you get poked in the ribs. Very annoying. I have found this to work well, birds do this to fix their own attentional issues, when enforcing pecking order. If you zone out while eating and don't notice the big rooster coming to eat from that pile, not back off and leave him the space, he will WHAM his beak into you, and the next time GUARANTEED you will zone out less, pay attention more. Couple of WHAM's you will notice ZERO mind-elsewhere and zoning out, whenever close to the particular rooster that hit you :wink:

When smaller no-threat birds are around you can zone out, you can do whatever you want.

I find this effective, have planned it out, do recommend it, and of course expect this to be applied to me when I zone out, which is actually never. Long before zoning out I'll tell you, "buzz off this is boring to me."

OP, as a mental exercise, please watch this video and imagine how likely you are to zone out if you're the redneck in this situation. Just listen to how unlikely you are to stop listening when faced with that threat level at that distance:



Also, go do a few amateur boxing rounds in a ring, just a little play fighting, maybe with foam sticks or something, get hit on the head a few times when zoning out, you;ll see just how fast you can gather your attention and keep it 100% stable. I guess this would be experiment / exercise 3 to try out. Do any of them you'll see they work wonders. THis third one is in fact a great cure for attention problems, there's something about pain and tactile consequences to zoning out, that just triggers proper attention to the here and now. Both birds and dogs / wolves use it, and it works in precisely this way. Zone out on the alpha dog, he WILL fuck you up. Then you don't zone out again. This keeps the reflexes and sensory acuity / perception performance of the whole pack at an all time high, ensuring maximum protection from intruders.

Quote:

Anxious rapid cognitive scanning is a highly adaptive evolutionary trait that has helped our species survive.



Exactly. We can do nervous attentional dispersal, fast brainwave, short attention span, often at a distance, away from the uncomfortable here-and-now that makes us anxious, OR we can do focus, fascination, being drawn in, which would be attentional gathering, long attention span, what lovers and friends do, when things go right. What hobbies do, things that fascinate us.

I bet you OP and every ADD male out there has very little trouble staying focused on things like "awesome unbelievable ass, 3 o'clock" or "Holy shit, that smoking hot girl's giving you the sweet eye, she's totally into you!!!" kind of situation. Somehow that sort of stimuli (can be sexual, can be food when hungry, water when thirsty, job when unemployed, whatever one filters and scans for) just never really has ADHD engaged when it appears.

So if it's that context-dependent, I'm calling BS on being a disease or malfunction. Especially since I've observed myself getting into that mental avoidance pattern and zoning out mid-sentence, when I'm in convos I don't like, any kind of nervousness or anxiety.

Quote:

Every hamster on the planet would be diagnosed with ADD by current "standards".



Yeah, and squirrels too, probably most small size rodents :laugh:


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