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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: quinn]
#23715053 - 10/07/16 03:10 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: in their undisturbed natural habitat
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23715176 - 10/07/16 05:38 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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animals were the first slaves. 'Next' it was women.
So let us see difference between animals used as slaves and animals treated fairly and humanely and symbitoically in domestication and/or wild
Look at how the evil mechanistic mindset used/uses eg chickens, like in a hideous concentration-camp matrix conveyor belt. Compare with a free range farm. totally different worlds
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yeah



Registered: 02/08/09
Posts: 3,729
Last seen: 1 month, 22 days
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: zzripz]
#23715497 - 10/07/16 07:53 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said: animals were the first slaves. 'Next' it was women.
So let us see difference between animals used as slaves and animals treated fairly and humanely and symbitoically in domestication and/or wild
Look at how the evil mechanistic mindset used/uses eg chickens, like in a hideous concentration-camp matrix conveyor belt. Compare with a free range farm. totally different worlds
I don't understand your viewpoint exactly. Are you saying we need a symbiotic relationship with men and women in the west?
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: quinn]
#23715707 - 10/07/16 09:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sure we had droughts, disease, famine and natural disasters -- but not continuously. If life in the ecosystem were so bad, life would not have survived for billions of years. I don't see how extinction, which does not happen to a large percentage of species at any given time, is relevant.
Once again, I do not feel that animals conceptualize a set of unfortunate events as suffering. This is readily apparent to me.
Animals are not always in pain. You're projecting human bias.
Reality can be harsh and unforgiving; it is not so at all times.
Most animals do not eat themselves to death. When they are full, they stop. Exceptions to this are horses, cows and some dogs, which are all domesticated.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: yeah]
#23715863 - 10/07/16 10:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said:
Quote:
zzripz said: animals were the first slaves. 'Next' it was women.
So let us see difference between animals used as slaves and animals treated fairly and humanely and symbitoically in domestication and/or wild
Look at how the evil mechanistic mindset used/uses eg chickens, like in a hideous concentration-camp matrix conveyor belt. Compare with a free range farm. totally different worlds
I don't understand your viewpoint exactly. Are you saying we need a symbiotic relationship with men and women in the west?
Yes, and more so with other species and nature which we have been driven to see as alien and hostile and 'only the fittest survive' etc. Understanding symbiotic connection
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Alexestalex
fallen angel


Registered: 03/20/12
Posts: 5,644
Loc: heart of the sun
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23716038 - 10/07/16 11:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
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Alexestalex said: Animals suffer too.
Horseshit. Substantiate for me how you come to the conclusion that animals, in their undisturbed natural habitat 'suffer too' (as you seem to imply they do as humans).
And before you start to go down some path of 'being hunted/starved', consider the fact that perhaps they don't 'consider' that this constitutes 'suffering'. Perhaps that is just pure, undiluted existence to them.
Animals do not have a deep sense of self and they aren't as aware of time as humans so they typically don't suffer psychologically, but I'm sure the physical pain they experience when they are being eaten alive is immense. And intelligent animals can suffer emotionally. They aren't just robots, they do have a sense of memory and they can form attachments. Animals can feel traumatized or abandoned or afraid.
If you look at the anatomy of complex animals, they all share similar pain receptors and they all react to pain in a similar way.
If no animals existed, that would imply that no innocent animals would have to endure the pain of being eaten alive. Isn't that a wonderful thing?
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Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.
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Alexestalex
fallen angel


Registered: 03/20/12
Posts: 5,644
Loc: heart of the sun
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23716065 - 10/07/16 11:29 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Sure we had droughts, disease, famine and natural disasters -- but not continuously. If life in the ecosystem were so bad, life would not have survived for billions of years. I don't see how extinction, which does not happen to a large percentage of species at any given time, is relevant.
Once again, I do not feel that animals conceptualize a set of unfortunate events as suffering. This is readily apparent to me.
Animals are not always in pain. You're projecting human bias.
Reality can be harsh and unforgiving; it is not so at all times.
Most animals do not eat themselves to death. When they are full, they stop. Exceptions to this are horses, cows and some dogs, which are all domesticated.
1) reality is sometimes extremely pleasant. But pleasure and pain are assymetrical. Imagine you can press a button. If you do, one random person will get a Lamborghini and become very happy. But another person will get terminal cancer and suffer immensely. It's ethically wrong to press this button. Simply because someone is going to experience joy from it doesn't cancel out the suffering it will cause another person. Even if 100 people got lamborghinis and one person got cancer, you still wouldn't have an ethical right to press it. So even though life can be very beautiful from time to time doesn't cancel out the horrors of existence. Joy and horror are assymetrical.
You can even ask yourself this question to prove it. Would you endure a month of the worst possible torture for a month of the most sublime pleasure possible? Of course not. The desire to escape immense pain is the most powerful human desire.
2) Animals certainly do suffer. I don't understand how this is arguable. Yeah, maybe animals don't sit around contemplating existence and feeling depressed but they certainly feel immense physical pain when they are eaten alive by another animal.
3) life doesn't have to be pleasant for life to continue. Life can be extremely gorey. Anybody who has studied a bit of evolutionary biology knows why life persists.
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Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.
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zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: Alexestalex]
#23716068 - 10/07/16 11:30 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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but that idea is a death cult. it is worshipping 'death' as the answer and denying life
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Alexestalex
fallen angel


Registered: 03/20/12
Posts: 5,644
Loc: heart of the sun
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: zzripz]
#23716080 - 10/07/16 11:35 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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What is "life" though?
Life is the collection of all sentient experience, is it not?
Antinatalism means wanting to stop horrible experiences like cancer, wars, gorey misfortunes, etc, which are a part of life. But I am not against life itself.
If no innocent beings had to suffer immense misfortunes like disease, I wouldn't be against pro-creation.
Labelling it as a cult is just an easy way to disregard it.
But your perspective is so inconsistent. I could just as well say that euthanasia is a cult movement that denies life.
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Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: Alexestalex] 1
#23716260 - 10/07/16 12:45 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alexestalex said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Sure we had droughts, disease, famine and natural disasters -- but not continuously. If life in the ecosystem were so bad, life would not have survived for billions of years. I don't see how extinction, which does not happen to a large percentage of species at any given time, is relevant.
Once again, I do not feel that animals conceptualize a set of unfortunate events as suffering. This is readily apparent to me.
Animals are not always in pain. You're projecting human bias.
Reality can be harsh and unforgiving; it is not so at all times.
Most animals do not eat themselves to death. When they are full, they stop. Exceptions to this are horses, cows and some dogs, which are all domesticated.
1) reality is sometimes extremely pleasant. But pleasure and pain are assymetrical. Imagine you can press a button. If you do, one random person will get a Lamborghini and become very happy. But another person will get terminal cancer and suffer immensely. It's ethically wrong to press this button. Simply because someone is going to experience joy from it doesn't cancel out the suffering it will cause another person. Even if 100 people got lamborghinis and one person got cancer, you still wouldn't have an ethical right to press it. So even though life can be very beautiful from time to time doesn't cancel out the horrors of existence. Joy and horror are assymetrical.
You can even ask yourself this question to prove it. Would you endure a month of the worst possible torture for a month of the most sublime pleasure possible? Of course not. The desire to escape immense pain is the most powerful human desire.
2) Animals certainly do suffer. I don't understand how this is arguable. Yeah, maybe animals don't sit around contemplating existence and feeling depressed but they certainly feel immense physical pain when they are eaten alive by another animal.
3) life doesn't have to be pleasant for life to continue. Life can be extremely gorey. Anybody who has studied a bit of evolutionary biology knows why life persists.
Could it be possible that you are a disaffected, unhappy modern civilized person who is projecting his bias outward to everything? Life at a baseline state isn't that miserable, dude. If it were, hominids would never have made it through millions of years of life on Earth.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


Registered: 04/05/00
Posts: 10,848
Loc: Portland, OR
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: viktor]
#23716507 - 10/07/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Pain, it's obsolete imho... I'd prefer a world where instead of aching I'd get an alert message thought " I need to go see the doctor, my _____ is in trouble"......
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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Alexestalex
fallen angel


Registered: 03/20/12
Posts: 5,644
Loc: heart of the sun
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23716872 - 10/07/16 04:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Could it be possible that you are a disaffected, unhappy modern civilized person who is projecting his bias outward to everything? Life at a baseline state isn't that miserable, dude. If it were, hominids would never have made it through millions of years of life on Earth. 
My own life's quality has no bearing on this argument.
I am simply observing what I see. Planet earth isn't an inherently peaceful, safe place. It is full of horrific misfortunes from rape to disease to violence to war.
Joyous experiences certainly exist in life, as well as horrific, heinous experiences that nobody should have to endure.
If I had a choice between creating a planet in which some people would be extremely happy but some innocent people would experience immense misery and pain OR not creating the planet AT ALL, I would choose the latter.
To me, it's ethically more important for innocent people to not have to experience the horrors of life. Justifying the suffering of those people by saying that other people's happiness and joy "balances is out" is a very flawed way of looking at the situation.
Joyful experiences do not "cancel out" horrific experiences by any means. There is a very clear asymmetry between the two. They are not polar opposites.
I, myself, have never experienced such horrific events but just look up all the tragic news that happen everyday. Every minute, one person commits suicide.
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Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.
Edited by Alexestalex (10/07/16 04:24 PM)
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bigdoodie
it does not matter


Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 238
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: viktor]
#23716906 - 10/07/16 04:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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The purpose of the universe is to experience life, the most irrational thing in the world is death, that is why all of this technology has been created and why the Illuminati is so hell bent on time travel/teleportation/cloning/ conscious transfer. Unless our last name is Rothschild or some shit, immortality is not an option. The engineers will have to earn their right to live after they have served the elite, and they will not give a damn about the immortality of those below them. There is no factual evidence of an afterlife, and reincarnation is a coping strategy to deal with death in a less negative way. When we lose our memory we are dead, there is no reincarnation. The bible does state the condition of the dead, as "the dead know nothing". And then how many times "he who has an ear let him hear" we have to wonder what exactly the message is, and not just go on a hunch and a sensation of guilt. Copernicus said the universe functions not by laws but by symbols and signs. We are not bound to the ideas that our minds are raped with. If we are being marched into a death camp and told to commit a sin or die, what do you think the rational thing to do would be, having not witnessed an afterlife?
All of us do have the ability to change the world. The butterfly affect proves that one thrust of a butterfly's wings can create a hurricane on the other side of the world. Someone witnesses it, has a thought, does something about it, chain reaction. Once we connect with the all-one, we can know how our small choices will impact the world, and we can end a war by throwing a paper airplane out of our bedroom window. There's a series on Netflix called 'touch' and it explains how the 'gods' have tied a ribbon around the ankle of every person and that it may bend or stretch but will never break, and that all things meant to happen will happen, but as we get more evil we start to stetch the ribbon, because we're serving the self And not focused on what kind of world we are leaving for the next generations. There is so much we don't know about the Illuminati and the things happening, this war is preventable, and if we speak too loud we get noticed, plant some seeds, and keep watering them, they will grow. Repetition is the #1 mind control method, so we are conditioned to the new world order now when we don't have to accept it. Save your families, the FEMA camps are quarantine centers and people will be encouraged to go there for safety and food- we could even be rounded up. At all costs, avoid those facilities. Anyone currently in (America) Florida, Georgia, Alabama, east Mississippi, north and south Carolina, California, Washington, and Oregon, needs to move inward. There will be few survivors in those states, I'm so sorry to tell you. Be self reliant, if your family won't leave, go alone, your existence depends on it. The highest ranking individuals are all in on the plan, they know exactly how and when things will happen, and trump hinted at November 8 (NOVEMBER EIGHTH) being a really bad day. Its like that south park episode where everyone is running away from global warming and then nothing happens, we are being conditioned to accept this, like boiling a frog. Don't be the toadies!!!
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Alexestalex
fallen angel


Registered: 03/20/12
Posts: 5,644
Loc: heart of the sun
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: bigdoodie]
#23716916 - 10/07/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Do you consider euthanasia to be irrational?
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Stay far from timid, only make moves when your heart's in it.
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bigdoodie
it does not matter


Registered: 06/24/16
Posts: 238
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: Alexestalex]
#23716950 - 10/07/16 04:40 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well what is deemed rational is based on the sense of purpose and if the purpose of life is to live then death is the rational thing to avoid beyond all other things. Even in a coma we will experience dreams, and anyone who's in bad enough shape to want to die should be shown much love. Beyond what our temporary opinion of life may be, at true state of being we would all rather be in hell than to not exist at all.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: Alexestalex] 1
#23717150 - 10/07/16 05:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alexestalex said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Could it be possible that you are a disaffected, unhappy modern civilized person who is projecting his bias outward to everything? Life at a baseline state isn't that miserable, dude. If it were, hominids would never have made it through millions of years of life on Earth. 
My own life's quality has no bearing on this argument.
I am simply observing what I see. Planet earth isn't an inherently peaceful, safe place. It is full of horrific misfortunes from rape to disease to violence to war.
Joyous experiences certainly exist in life, as well as horrific, heinous experiences that nobody should have to endure.
If I had a choice between creating a planet in which some people would be extremely happy but some innocent people would experience immense misery and pain OR not creating the planet AT ALL, I would choose the latter.
To me, it's ethically more important for innocent people to not have to experience the horrors of life. Justifying the suffering of those people by saying that other people's happiness and joy "balances is out" is a very flawed way of looking at the situation.
Joyful experiences do not "cancel out" horrific experiences by any means. There is a very clear asymmetry between the two. They are not polar opposites.
I, myself, have never experienced such horrific events but just look up all the tragic news that happen everyday. Every minute, one person commits suicide.
Yeah, we've created quite a hell for ourselves, but it is not the case that animals in a state of nature are always suffering. That's just wrong. There are worse times, and there are better times, and there's what's in between. Life on Earth is not a hell for everybody, and if it's a hell for most humans, that doesn't mean it was a hell before intensive agriculture. You clearly have unresolved issues that you're projecting; life on Earth, for most of its history, did not see every species suffering miserably. Humanity has exploded in the last 10,000 years (a blink of an eye), and that has made for some awful conditions for humans and other animals, for everybody. But don't conflate that with the natural state of things. Most of the suffering one now sees arises from artificial (man-made) causes.
Look at the Hadza, a group of hunter-gatherers in Tanzania. They live in a rural place, and civilization is encroaching but hasn't swallowed them yet. They don't feel like they're suffering at all, and they do not fear death. Interesting example.
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Leviticus969



Registered: 07/01/12
Posts: 939
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: Alexestalex]
#23717865 - 10/07/16 09:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's all up in the movies and most people have no idea. For instance, star wars, the force vs the darkside...
YHWH vs Jesus.
The lion King, Scar is Lucifer/Jesus telling simba to not give a shit "hakuna mattata" so Scar/Jesus/Lucifer can rule the kingdom..
Scar/Jesus/Lucifer, then turns the pride rock and pride lands into a desolate wasteland.
Simba finds out who he really is. A son of a king, Mufasa (YHWH). A fearsome Lion that's supposed to rule righteously by destroying evil.
So Simba follows his FATHER/YHWH and kills scar/jesus/lucifer.
Then the pridelands is all bright and sunny again. the end.
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quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23720737 - 10/08/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Sure we had droughts, disease, famine and natural disasters -- but not continuously. If life in the ecosystem were so bad, life would not have survived for billions of years. I don't see how extinction, which does not happen to a large percentage of species at any given time, is relevant.
Once again, I do not feel that animals conceptualize a set of unfortunate events as suffering. This is readily apparent to me.
Animals are not always in pain. You're projecting human bias.
Reality can be harsh and unforgiving; it is not so at all times.
Most animals do not eat themselves to death. When they are full, they stop. Exceptions to this are horses, cows and some dogs, which are all domesticated.
i never said animals are always in pain but they no doubt are sometimes in pain and sometimes suffer... why is 'conceptualising' events relevant to suffering??
whether nature is a happy or sad place is a pretty stupid debate imo but i will say it's full of death and flux and extinction and just because something is surviving for the moment doesnt mean it is having a good time
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: quinn] 1
#23720756 - 10/08/16 09:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said: i never said animals are always in pain but they no doubt are sometimes in pain and sometimes suffer... why is 'conceptualising' events relevant to suffering??
whether nature is a happy or sad place is a pretty stupid debate imo but i will say it's full of death and flux and extinction and just because something is surviving for the moment doesnt mean it is having a good time 
My point is that it doesn't mean it's having a bad time, either.
As far as conceptualizing goes, I think much of the sting of suffering comes from constantly telling ourselves we are suffering, that this sucks. Without recognizing adversity as suffering, there is not nearly as much suffering going on. It is simply accepted. I think this is closer to the natural attitude than wallowing in misery, which is what civilized humans do best.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: If you could change any one thing about the world [Re: DividedQuantum] 2
#23721193 - 10/09/16 03:38 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I think this is closer to the natural attitude than wallowing in misery, which is what civilized humans do best. 
I no longer wallow in misery - perhaps I have shucked off the vestiges of civilisation?
The real paradox is that there's nothing that can be changed - consciousness will experience yin and yang, and beyond that it will experience earth, water, air and fire, and beyond that it will experience heaven and earth, mountain and lake, water and fire, thunder and wind.
This is true is one is born a man or a mouse, healthy or sick, or even on this planet or a distant one.
Everything else is trivia.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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