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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB] * 2
    #24389964 - 06/09/17 12:59 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)



ok, so i had to re hand type the original graph and add all the new numbers so it would be a lot easier to look at everything, again i used the numbers and graph format originally created by Urtica on dmt nexus.

there is still a bunch of info still missing in the graph, right now the new additions only have a percentages of crude alkaloids per cactus but we don't know yet how much of that is mescaline vs other alkaloids, so if/when that info comes out i'll update the graph again, unless Urtica does it first.

(edit) also reordered them based on highest alkaloid % but again just keep in mind that the current grouping is based on crude% and the order may change when the exact mescaline percentages come out.


Edited by DGB (06/24/17 10:24 PM)


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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB] * 1
    #24402591 - 06/13/17 02:26 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

updated the graph again, made it bigger, filled in some spaces, corrected a placement error, added a new category and added 3 new clones from the 14 taxa paper, they are measured differently then the way the other cutting are measured so the numbers are not directly comparable but among those cutting you can see how they rank, the 14 taxa paper included multiple past studies as well however they all seem to be random cuts from different sources, so unless anyone knows and has proof showing that a unnamed cut from those studies now has a name and is floating around in the community in going to leave the rest of the papers tests out of the graph.

(edit) a quick edit, right when i posted i realized in the original paper for the 14 taxa in methods they gave a standard weight of material tested so a percentage of mescaline per green skin weight could be calculated. also did it very quick but i believe i did it right, 1.4% of 2G extrapolated out to 28.3495 grams (1oz) and converted to MG is 396.9mg right? oh also added the new category mescaline per oz of dried outer green skin.



Edited by DGB (06/24/17 10:24 PM)


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Offlinenolongrlurkin
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB] * 2
    #24422317 - 06/20/17 10:45 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Dgb, you are doing amazing things for us here!! I, for one, find this priceless information!!! Thank you, from the center of my infinite soul!


--------------------
Cannabis for the body, cubensis for the mind, cactus for the spirit.


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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: nolongrlurkin] * 1
    #24422680 - 06/21/17 01:59 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I did think of you when I read about the rs004 results.

I do hope people benefit from my collecting of information from different places into a single thread. But I just catalog the info I find, make sure you support the people doing the actual studies and ground work.

But hopefully all this information helps people when considering what cuts to get if they choose to go with a known clone from a trusted vendor, I know potency changes with almost every possible variable but as long as the results are accurate and consistent enough to give a general idea of where things fall in relation to each other its worth looking into. Even if the number have a wide margin of error the fact that using the same technique they got numbers that seem to confirm what we've already known from anecdotal evidence should show that there's something to the data. I mean we know anecdotally pc is extremally weak, lumberjack and ss02 are high end of potent, LER is on the low end of medium and rs0005 is somewhere in the middle. there's no way its just coincidence that all the data on these cutting seem to put theme right where they belong, the only thing that’s changed is we now have numbers to put to and back up the anecdotal ranking. And if you don’t want to concede that point, at the very least we come back to my original argument that this gives us a high water mark for each cut, they may not be this exact mg/kg of alkaloids at all times but at least now we know this particular cutting can at least reach this level of alkaloid content, i.e. would you rather have a cutting that only ever tests between option A, 0.0008% - 0.0006% or option B, one that tests 0.02%-0.026? yes there may be some fluxuations in alkaloid content due to external factors but you don’t need 100% accurate mg/kg numbers to say option two is probably going to be a more reliable producer of alkaloids then option A.

Sorry went off on a mini rant, been meaning to post this since I know the argument against this data is coming again sooner or later, just needed an excuse to post it without being the only one posting in my thread for the past 5 posts lol.


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InvisibleEl Torcho
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB]
    #24422941 - 06/21/17 06:05 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Is the Kate bridge a named clone, or is that the supplier name? Preceded by 'Cactus'?


--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit"
~Dennis McKenna

"There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to."
~His Holiness, The 14th Dalai Lama


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Offlinenolongrlurkin
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB]
    #24422948 - 06/21/17 06:09 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Have you shared your data on any other site?? If not, then I'm about to link this shit up..!!


--------------------
Cannabis for the body, cubensis for the mind, cactus for the spirit.


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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: nolongrlurkin]
    #24422995 - 06/21/17 06:50 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

the most recent numbers and original graph format came from DMT nexus, the previous quotes came from multiple forums and web site as well as from the 14 taxa paper and a few of trouts books. a lot of the quotes from the start of the thread were posted on my Mycotopia thread but i don't go there anymore because of a certain A-hole mod, i posted a link to that at eh beinging of the thread.


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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB] * 1
    #24428431 - 06/23/17 06:37 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)



Another update, BIGGER GRAPH, also changed around the categories to make more seance in placement, or at least grouped them, also color coded the groups, I also added and calculated the dry mescaline % into MG per oz of dried plant. Also changed the working to include whole plant…cept looking back the % mescaline dry weight is missing "whole plant" but too lazy to re do it now.  I also added peyote to the list and all its calculated numbers just too give an idea on how tricheocerus stacks up to it, numbers came as average ranges from a study cited by trouts notes.

As always I hate math, so if anyone notices any miss calculations let me know. I did round a few things but tried to to it in 0.00s

i also heard from urtica the one doing the analysis. "This is a work in progress & I will have more data here soon."

(edit) so next time i ll have to change the wording of that catagory, also the peyote numbers look a little weird since its a range, not sure if in the next update i should leave it as is, do just the average, or add the average to the range


Edited by DGB (06/24/17 10:24 PM)


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Invisiblecactamateur
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB]
    #24432617 - 06/24/17 07:18 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

This is a fantastic work in progress - keep it up!

Small suggestion - reference the data with footnotes, ex. by the lumberjack where it says 0.062% write it as:

0.062%3

and so on, and have the list of reference sources at the bottom.

It'll look more..scientific.. and it'll save the trouble of answering any source questions down the road since you've already sourced the info.

:thumbup:


[edit: like this chart has the superscript and 'footnotes' -https://www.elsevier.com/__data/promis_images/table1_jds.jpg]


Edited by cactamateur (06/24/17 07:21 PM)


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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: cactamateur]
    #24433045 - 06/24/17 10:26 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)



a few citations added, changed some wording again and corrected other issues mentioned in previous post.


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB]
    #24447785 - 06/30/17 05:55 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

My brother works with gas chromatographs. He told me I could bring him some samples and he could determine the percentages. I have an Old Town Bridgesii in my collection that I wanted to get tested. I also have a standard PC Pach and a few other random unknown trichs I picked up form home depot. I figure we might as well all take advantage of this opportunity, and pool our resources together. If anyone has any of the popular named clones, they should pm me for instructions on how to send me a small cutting so that I may include it.

Once we determine the trichs with the highest potency, we can start crossing them and further select for potency.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: amp244]
    #24447964 - 06/30/17 07:17 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

You should also make a post on the cactus analisis thread on dmt nexus.


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Invisiblespaceman101
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: amp244]
    #24448255 - 06/30/17 08:45 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
My brother works with gas chromatographs. He told me I could bring him some samples and he could determine the percentages. I have an Old Town Bridgesii in my collection that I wanted to get tested. I also have a standard PC Pach and a few other random unknown trichs I picked up form home depot. I figure we might as well all take advantage of this opportunity, and pool our resources together. If anyone has any of the popular named clones, they should pm me for instructions on how to send me a small cutting so that I may include it.

Once we determine the trichs with the highest potency, we can start crossing them and further select for potency.






Are you fucking serious??? What exactly would you need? how much should be cut off and what all info would he need to classify the potency of said plant?


--------------------
-------------

Check out my Pollen Trade thread for spreading Good genetics far and wide :grin:

Great Vendors thread where we can discuss "Non Shroomery" Vendors that sell good products worth checking into :stoned:

A few things I wanna get my hands on check it out and let me know if you have any of these:grin:


Need help getting started growing mushrooms
              Here's The Noob Forum


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: spaceman101]
    #24450173 - 07/01/17 04:52 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I'm gonna ask him and figure all that out. I'll let you know the process.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: amp244]
    #24450196 - 07/01/17 05:08 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Apparently this wont be as easy as I thought... The gas chromatographs that he is using use different columns to separate specific components. Each column is specific to the application, so that components completely separate and reliable analysis is achieved. I'm assuming that we'd need to make/buy a special column that he does not have available.

We can still do it, we just need to figure out what we need, and see how much its going to cost. I'm in the process of asking more questions.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: amp244]
    #24450244 - 07/01/17 05:26 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Ok let me break down the process:

We need to dissolve the cacti in a solvent and make a liquid tincture. The machine only requires a small amount of fluid, so only a small piece of cactus would be needed. Use a fixed weight of dried material and a fixed volume of solvent for every test.

The machine functionality itself is relatively simple: You inject a liquid or gas into the inlet, the liquid vaporizes and enters the column. The column is a very tiny bore tubing that is coated with something called a stationary phase. The stationary phase is selected with a certain polarity and other properties such that the molecules of your injected sample interact with it. Some molecules that don't have an affinity for the column rush right through, others are restrained because they have interactions with the column; thus, separation. Eventually everything makes its way through the column and reaches the detector that shows a response or how much of that component there is.

So all we need is the right column for the job.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: amp244]
    #24450372 - 07/01/17 06:22 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Ok, he has the columns we need. This is all ready to happen.

http://www.unodc.org/pdf/publications/st-nar-19.pdf
The pertinent information is at the bottom of page 17 under "capillary column technique".

We can get maybe 5 or so samples together. I don't want to be too long fucking around with these. Perhaps we can keep these runs specifically focusing on the potent bridges.

So far I have an Old Town Bridge to throw in. Another shroomery collector has contacted me and offered other nice bridges, such as Eileen, Killer Green Cactus, Kai, and more.

Lets try to compile a list of the top bridges that we would like to see tested, and then arrange for their testing!


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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InvisibleDualWieldRake
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: amp244]
    #24451349 - 07/02/17 05:34 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

How are you planning to prepare the samples

Take a small piece of skin? flesh? both?
I would say the best is to use a good size column and homogenize it

Also take notes on the age and conditions of the sample you use, it supposedly has a great effect on alkaloid contents


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Invisiblespaceman101
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DualWieldRake]
    #24451566 - 07/02/17 09:05 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Ok! This is something I would like to do and I'd imaging some others would enjoy it as well.


I have a few different genetics over here but my original Bridge which I do not believe has a name (or it just was traded as T. bridgesii) but is a true blue Bridge that I have been cloning for years.


Each clone is in different stages of growth from Old (huge pot) growth and has been on its own roots for somewhere around 5 years at this point and so on down the line to freshly rooted.


1 year, 2 year, 3 year and so on.

This could answer the age old question of "does time, size and time in the soil play any role in potency"?


I have MANY other experiments just as such with other types of trichos so I could continue for ages with this :smirk:


MY question that I'm trying to find answers for is what plays the largest roles in obtaining a potent plant other than the simple genetics atm.


--------------------
-------------

Check out my Pollen Trade thread for spreading Good genetics far and wide :grin:

Great Vendors thread where we can discuss "Non Shroomery" Vendors that sell good products worth checking into :stoned:

A few things I wanna get my hands on check it out and let me know if you have any of these:grin:


Need help getting started growing mushrooms
              Here's The Noob Forum


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InvisibleDualWieldRake
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: spaceman101]
    #24451621 - 07/02/17 09:43 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

A guy on the nook recently tested the same plant 3 months later having it stored in the dark and got twice the levels of mescaline from lab test


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