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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: Spore Ninja]
    #23789900 - 10/31/16 09:07 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Spore Ninja said:
Quote:

ferrel_human said:
Man FUCK science! Taste it. Eat it. Live it. :acidcat:




I NEED NUMBERS!!! :takingnotes:




I knowthere is one clone by some african guy that was tested at 4%? Ogund something. It comes on ebay from time to time but real wxpensive thoigh.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


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OfflineSpore Ninja
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23790161 - 10/31/16 11:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ferrel_human said:
Quote:

Spore Ninja said:
Quote:

ferrel_human said:
Man FUCK science! Taste it. Eat it. Live it. :acidcat:




I NEED NUMBERS!!! :takingnotes:




I knowthere is one clone by some african guy that was tested at 4%? Ogund something. It comes on ebay from time to time but real wxpensive thoigh.




If only we could find people that know how to do tissue cultures and agar work....


--------------------
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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: Spore Ninja]
    #23790371 - 11/01/16 03:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GreenFingers said:
I'm surprised there aren't more accounts of popular clones that have been bioassied. For as popular as clone collecting is I would expect to see some more reviews on a few.




That's my exact though too, I even mention it in my other thread about how I just don't understand how this information isn't already widely documented on these type of forums, with all the cuttings people are constantly buying you would think what is and isn't active would me plastered all over and common knowledge.

https://mycotopia.net/topic/99267-whats-the-best-vendor-to-get-reliably-potent-cacti-cuttings/

I did have a thread over on another forum that I posted what I've been finding in terms of clones and which seem to have activity per "reports" since shroomery is a little stricter about sourcing, but I've kind of given up posting there for obvious reasons if you choose to read though the thread, I've pretty much settled on what I plan on doing but I still think there should be an easily found list of active cuttings, the exact potency would be hard to pin down for many reasons but at least knowing a cutting is active or not would be a good start and if enough people come forward to give their impression of strength it may be possible to estimate an average of strength for a particular cut, especially if said person has a number of different clones in the same environment to compare it to.

so, people can have an easier time deciding what they want to look for instead of just blindly ordering no name cuts off some auction site. That just never seemed like a legit answer to me, at least for what I was looking for, sure if you want to experiment and try your luck at getting something new it would be a good option but just like growing from seeds, it's an investment/gamble were you could turn up with something great, something meh or something terrible, you don’t know until you've already put down the time/money, I just think there should be an easier option that offers a little more predictability other than playing roulette with internet vendors.

correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is we can talk about specific clones here even if they are only available from one source but as long as we don't say that exact source it's still allowed, right? because you haven't sourced the cut, just that a cut exists under a name and is of certain activity.

if so I might just copy over the info I have there into this thread. Its basically the result of scouring a bunch of forums and books for mentions of specific clones and if they are active or not, as some have mentioned its anonymous and from a few sources and as such isn't the absolute greatest source on confirmation but as mentioned if we could get enough people to come forward to say "yes, X and Y are active" the evidence for that being true strengthens.


Edited by DGB (11/01/16 03:17 AM)


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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB]
    #23790413 - 11/01/16 04:18 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DGB said:
correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is we can talk about specific clones here even if they are only available from one source but as long as we don't say that exact source it's still allowed, right? because you haven't sourced the cut, just that a cut exists under a name and is of certain activity.





Correct, no source or vendor discussion, good or bad. Or dosage advice. We try to stick to the growing and gardening of plants.

I wonder if folks don't eat their named clones as they do seem to trade for inflated prices. They are selected for their growth forms and other characteristics, and have as much chance of being weak, average, strong, as any other active trich, probably.

I see some of the named clones and can't help but think well they don't seem too far different from other exemplars, but give something a unique name and people want them more!


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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #23790429 - 11/01/16 04:36 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

All the info iv found so far.

Per sacredcacti.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SanPedro_2006_with_pachanoi_pachanot_addendum.pdf  "trout's notes on san pedro 3rd addition"

Trichocereus bridgesii RS0005
A form known as the Eusaporus clone is reputed to be
extremely potent and nearly palatable but I lack any details
beyond it originating from the defunct cactus nursery Sticky
Business.
It is said to lack slime but this is apparently seasonal as our
lone assessment of this feature was rather slimy.

San Pedro & related Trichocereus species
Trichocereus cv. (Lumberjack)
Unlabeled form obtained in a Sacramento, CA Lumberjack store.
Proven to be a potent mescaline container by human bioassay.
Now cultivated for sacramental purposes.
Appearance suggest that this may be a hybrid or intermediate of
T. bridgesii with T. peruvianus or something similar.
T. peruvianusXbridgesii and T. pachanoiXbridgesii hybrids are
known to exist in horticulture but we have never encountered
any that were actually labeled as such.

http://www.spiritplants.org/forums/the-desert/a-trichocereus-so-strong-one-only-needs-to-eat-3-inches/

per JRL

" Lumberjack is definitely stronger than PC but not three inches strong. On another note, it is gratifying to see that that the appellation Lumberjack has become common knowledge, my humble contribution."

Trichocereus macrogonus
Macrogonus as represented in the US appears to be quite active
although variable in potency and degree of slime.
The RS0004 is purported to yield a nearly nonslimy beverage that
is palatable and potent. The solid pulp is claimed to spontaneously
separate from the liquid when run in a blender; unlike the
nonspontaneously separating thick foamy mucus-like slime that results
from most macrogonus forms if treated that way. We have been told
this rather than witnessing it.

Trichocereus pachanoi (Dave) is said to be a slendergrowing
form of T. pachanoi. It is reported to be potent
in human bioassay. It needs analysis.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=3985

per 'Coatl
" Name- Trichocereus pachanoi "Torres & Torres"

Description- Typical non-predominant cultivator Trichocereus pachanoi with "V"-shaped notchs above the areoles.

Dosage and Effects-  inchs for a moderate to intense trip. Similair to other Trichocereus pachanoi in effects, but often much stronger. The effects are very euphoric, smooth ride, and long lasting, not as purgative as Trichocereus bridgeii or other species.

Origin- Chile

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23708569/page/2

per p0stij
" From my understanding "The Mallacht Cut" and "OTB" are both serious stuff."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21326744

per BigHeart

" I believe the theory behind all of the Juul's hybrids is that you take a fast grower (Juul's) and mix it with a high potency (SS02, Psycho.0, etc.) and you could end up with a fast growing, high potency hybrid. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.lycaeum.org/forum/index.php?topic=25659.0

per Teotzlcoatl

" Some potent clones include- Trichocereus pachanoi "Torres & Torres", Trichocereus peruvianus SS01, Trichocereus pachanoi "Kimnach"."

Cactus Chemistry By Species 2014 Light

https://archive.org/stream/CactusChemistryBySpecies2014Light/CactusChemistryBySpecies_2014_Light_djvu.txt

"Trichocereus pachanoi cv. 'Tom Juul's Giant'

Unclear in origin prior to Tom Juul. Peru seems probable.

1.4% Ogunbedede 2010 (using dried green outer layer)
Presence of Mescaline was both demonstrated by human
bioassay and confirmed previously by gc-ms. but it should
be emphasized that there are conflicting reports ranging
from full activity at 4-6 inches to powerful trips with 1
foot to complete inactivity with 2 feet."


"Trichocereus peruvianus KK242 

Pardanani et al. 1977 (Using intact plant)
0.24% K242 propagated from a live cutting




"Trichocereus sp. SS02 (a T. bridgesii form)
Reported to be a
reliably effective form in multiple human bioassays; presence
of mescaline demonstrated in GC-MS (seemingly as sole
alkaloid?) Needs taxonomic study and an analysis.
Anonymous 1999 & 2000. "



"Trichocereus sp. N.Chile (Torres & Torres)

Presence of Mescaline has been proven by human bioassay"



"The monstrose forms of T. bridgesii have been purported to

be especially active in human bioassays."



Trout’s Notes on
The Cactus Alkaloids
Nomenclature, Physical properties,
Pharmacology & Occurrences

sacredcacti.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/CactusAlkaloids_2013.pdf

"Trichocereus sp. SS01 (macrogonoid) Reported to contain mescaline based on human bioassays. Correspondent requesting anonymity; 2000"


"Trichocereus sp. SS02 (bridgesioid) Reported to contain mescaline based on human bioassays. Correspondent requesting anonymity; 2000"


"Trichocereus sp. SS03 (peruvianoid) Reported to contain mescaline based on human bioassays. Correspondent requesting anonymity; 2000"

"Trichocereus sp. W.Baker 5452
(this is a bridgesii)
(%?) Mescaline confirmed in analysis but unpublished.
Bioassay & analytical information from sources requesting an¬onymity."


TLDR, so far either through direct hearsay or reliable sources some confirmed active clones are

RS0005, Lumberjack, RS0004, Dave, Torres & Torres, Kimnach, Juul's Giant, KK242, bridgesii monstrose, SS01, SS02, SS03, and 5452.

with honorable mentions for "The Mallacht Cut" "OTB" and "Psycho0"


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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB]
    #23790441 - 11/01/16 04:56 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DGB said:
"Trichocereus sp. SS01 (macrogonoid) Reported to contain mescaline based on human bioassays. Correspondent requesting anonymity; 2000"


"Trichocereus sp. SS02 (bridgesioid) Reported to contain mescaline based on human bioassays. Correspondent requesting anonymity; 2000"


"Trichocereus sp. SS03 (peruvianoid) Reported to contain mescaline based on human bioassays. Correspondent requesting anonymity; 2000"




I thought SS01 was a peruvian, and SS03 a possible knuthianus or hybrid. Trich taxonomy is fun :nonono:


--------------------
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Invisiblemodern.shaman
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB]
    #23790466 - 11/01/16 05:30 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

There has been conversations of this issue in the community before and the general consensus is subtly is key. Top breeders and collectors don't want the community to go the way of weed cult. Names like super killer dank fire blastoff clone would defeat the point. Not all growers are interested in that singular aspect.

Having stated all that... rest assured that popular clones are popular for a reason. Bridgesii in general are accepted as reliable and named clones more so. Now a named clone may not necessarily be stronger than a no name clone but it is popular/named for a reason.

Most clones are named either for special traits (girth, speed, water tolerance), visuals (color, spine, beauty, crest/monstrose), tracking reference for how it spreads, breeding purposes ( using the same clone in different crosses, or even to shorten the cross name (instead of calling it ((ss02xpach)x(ss02xss01))xpsych0) you can just call it Mustang. It can also be named due to potency.

Now be aware there are also some unscrupulous sellers that will name some just so it has a higher perceived value like j12 or w.e. jimmz calls them. Not even sure they are all the same clone and Ive also seen people name a random cutting and sell it as a known clone. (A seller named a spiney bridgesii as lumberjack but it was not and people paid big bucks for it; after community called them out he renamed it caterpillar.)

Other clones have been named in memorial to some one who may have passed like Eileen, Psycho, chemical dick and others. Named after family member who died or a prominent forum member who passed.

Most named clones are no more special then others with a few exceptions like obode clone which is tested near 5%.

Most Nonpc pachanoi are potent and bridgesii are reliable. Peruvianus as a mixed batch due to misidentified Cuzcos.

seed crosses with known parents are 'special' because there is higher chance of select plants arising with traits similar to parents if not better. Now in day most people are aware that the common pc clone is weak but with enough it does the trick and is very water tolerant, cold tolerant and fast growing.

Another thing worth mentioning is clones originally should be giveaway or spread very cheap.the purpose is to get it in as many hands as possible so it spreads. Very rare clones may be desired but cost will be too high and risk of not being worthy clone.

I've given away a few small clones of a seed grown clone to people and sold a few cuttings. Those that I feel overpaid due to it being an auction I would send extra clones and gifts like candles I've made. I was wary of the name I chose due to the obvious correlation but it is my mothers name and she saved it from killing it off so :shrug: potency on that clone has not been tested yet but named it due to it being crested and from bridgesii seed. It now clearly looks like a Bridgesii x Pach/Peru with grafts looking differ then own roots clones. Very water tolerant and fast growing IME. To my eyes it looks like it has the perfect mix of pach and bridgesii and if it tests to have pachanoi power with bridgesii spirit the name will stick and it will become an established clone. If not it may spread as a crest or just not spread further.

My suggestion to most is get a named Pachanoi and named bridgesii and just grow those out and forget the rest. Growing from seed is fun and after a few years you are overrun with cacti and sometimes find a special one. If you have space and plan on breeding get more clones also sellers should have a few clones.


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #23790700 - 11/01/16 08:53 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mostly_Harmless said:

I see some of the named clones and can't help but think well they don't seem too far different from other exemplars, but give something a unique name and people want them more!



"This" clone and "that" clone. Well grow it from seed.

I think hybrids are all the rage these days. I could care less of activity and more about spination. Spination to me is a thing of beauty. Long wicked spined? Lovely. Spineless? Lovely. I tend to go for regular spine length whe. Strong activity is present. Other than that, im not gonna pay out the ass for anything no more. Well maybe. But not a trich.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


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InvisibleGrey Fox

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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23790877 - 11/01/16 10:13 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Great info here! Thank you to everyone who is contributing knowledge.

The only named clone that I am familiar with is Juul's Giant. It definitely has a gentle, uplifting pachanoi spirit and is of moderate strength... about 4 or 5 on a scale of 1 (pc pach) to 10 (very potent bridg).


--------------------
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OfflineShroomeryReader
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23791395 - 11/01/16 01:40 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ferrel_human said:


I knowthere is one clone by some african guy that was tested at 4%? Ogund something. It comes on ebay from time to time but real wxpensive thoigh.




Ogunbodede
In my experience, i can believe the 4%.
I'm growing this clone.


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: ShroomeryReader]
    #23791414 - 11/01/16 01:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomeryReader said:
Quote:

ferrel_human said:


I knowthere is one clone by some african guy that was tested at 4%? Ogund something. It comes on ebay from time to time but real wxpensive thoigh.




Ogunbodede
In my experience, i can believe the 4%.
I'm growing this clone.




Thats it.

Dont know if its a pach, torch, or bridge. I know ita a trich so there goes.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


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OfflineShroomeryReader
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23791438 - 11/01/16 01:52 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

It's a pachanoi, ferrel.
K Trout has a page about it on his web site


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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: ShroomeryReader]
    #23791449 - 11/01/16 01:55 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomeryReader said:
It's a pachanoi, ferrel.
K Trout has a page about it on his web site





is yours spineless like that too? or was that just despined for shipping?


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OfflineShroomeryReader
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB]
    #23791512 - 11/01/16 02:16 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

This is an Ogunbodede tip I grafted onto a PC pachanoi.

Other pictures I've seen growers post on forums have looked similar, always showing spines.


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: ShroomeryReader]
    #23791572 - 11/01/16 02:36 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomeryReader said:
This is an Ogunbodede tip I grafted onto a PC pachanoi.

Other pictures I've seen growers post on forums have looked similar, always showing spines.




Seems like all other trichs. Or pachs. Most vendors will ass rape. But its just the way ot goes.


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: ferrel_human]
    #23791611 - 11/01/16 02:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

well hopefully one of the reliable vendors gets a cutting and start offering it.


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OfflineSpore Ninja
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: GreenFingers]
    #23793076 - 11/01/16 09:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GreenFingers said:
I'm surprised there aren't more accounts of popular clones that have been bioassied. For as popular as clone collecting is I would expect to see some more reviews on a few.



I think one major obstacle is the extended time frame it takes for growing and testing.
Here's Dr. Shulgin on the Juuls variety:

Quote:

You have a sample of one of the most understudied and controversial cacti that I am aware of. What is the origin of its name, its botanical classification, the alkaloidal composition and its possible psychopharmacological activity? Let me put together what I can from Trout's notes from his Sacred Cacti book, and a small amount of unpublished analytical lab work that I did a few years ago.




Quote:

I am aware of three reported bioassays, with psychedelic effects stated to be inactive, weak, or twice as potent as San Pedro. I have personally not tasted this cactus. However, I have run gas chromatography mass spectroscopy (GCMS) analyses on extracts from five samples of dried specimens from three different sources. All five showed the presence of mescaline (one as a trace component only) but all five samples displayed totally different composition portraits.




Quote:

This is the frustrating aspect of plant analysis. One has to be reasonably competent in chemistry, in botany and in pharmacology, all at the same time. If you hope to identify new alkaloids in a plant, you have to take a decade or two...




Quote:

And of course, the bottom line is the area of pharmacology. Is the plant active? You are not sure just what is in the plant. And you are not sure just what the plant is. And, if the plant is not a psychoactive thing, do you really want to spend time and effort on the analysis of pharmacologically inactive things that are in it? So you have to grow it, name it, synthesize its possible components, and eat it, to begin to understand why this sacred plant of an almost unknown tribe of Indians, in the upper deserts of Bolivia, worshipped it. That is a lot of dedication and a lot of decades.

There is no easy answer.

-- Dr. Shulgin




http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/shulgin/blg/2005/01/juuls-giant-cactus-aka-jewels-giant.html


--------------------
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OfflineDGB
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: Spore Ninja]
    #23793175 - 11/01/16 09:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I think towards the end there he started talking about identifying new alkaloids, which would take a lot of time but he's also going after exact spectrum analysis, to give exact % of contents and which is or isn't present and what each does. Because from the way he's talking about it sounds like he's describing isolation of unknown alkaloids.

The list we were talking about is less about exact spectrum break down and identification values and more just is said plant active or not.


*obtain X known cutting from known vendor Y*
*eat X cutting from known vendor Y*
*Wait*
*Report* " X cutting from known vendor Y was active for me" or " X cutting from known vendor Y was not active for me"
*repeat with multiple people* if 2 or more people come back to say "X cutting from known vendor Y was active for me" we can probably add it to the list of active clones.  The hang up is currently very few people are willing to come forward and say " X cutting from known vendor Y was active for me"


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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: Spore Ninja]
    #23793252 - 11/01/16 10:15 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Dun Dun DUUUNNNN


From the link on Trout's page:
Quote:

New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. (Cactaceae) (“San Pedro”) and their relevance to shamanic practice



Unfortunatly, it's $35 for the write up of the results, but some universities may get free access to it. It was on the Science Direct site.
Free access if you are:
"
    healthcare practitioner
    interested in pay-per-view article purchase
    researcher or librarian
    student or faculty member
    visitor or subscriber to the website"

Not sure what that last line means. But hopefully someone here can qualify to grab a copy and share some results.


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OfflineSpore Ninja
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Re: any experience with any of the named Trichocereus clones? [Re: DGB]
    #23793271 - 11/01/16 10:22 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DGB said:
I think towards the end there he started talking about identifying new alkaloids, which would take a lot of time but he's also going after exact spectrum analysis, to give exact % of contents and which is or isn't present and what each does. Because from the way he's talking about it sounds like he's describing isolation of unknown alkaloids.

The list we were talking about is less about exact spectrum break down and identification values and more just is said plant active or not.


*obtain X known cutting from known vendor Y*
*eat X cutting from known vendor Y*
*Wait*
*Report* " X cutting from known vendor Y was active for me" or " X cutting from known vendor Y was not active for me"
*repeat with multiple people* if 2 or more people come back to say "X cutting from known vendor Y was active for me" we can probably add it to the list of active clones.  The hang up is currently very few people are willing to come forward and say " X cutting from known vendor Y was active for me"



I understand what you're saying, but I think the same methods would be used for testing just for the primary alkaloid.
and
A) There's a LOT of variety and even outright misrepresentation of different strains/species.
B) there are a LOT of variables that affect the alkaloid score.

So using a top quality source/vendor would be the best way to guarantee quality.
It's still somewhat of a crapshoot- but at least you have much better odds that way.

or go the budget route and take your chances. Buy a bunch of different types and keep working through them until you find one you like.


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