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Offlineqman
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23734100 - 10/13/16 01:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Our GDP has a lot more to do with globalism than it does domestic budgets.

Either way its pretty simple: our deficit hikes coincide with tax cuts. Are the two unrelated?




"our deficit hikes coincide with tax cuts"

Correlation is not causation, if one could show that our tax revenue to GDP dropped from those tax cuts, you would have a valid point, but that's NOT the case. :shrug:

We have more social service programs than we did in the past, that's why it's very challenging for tax revenue to increase with spending.

In fact, if one were to look at our future unfunded liabilities, we can see that it's almost impossible to fund regardless of higher taxes.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/23/does-the-united-states-have-128-trillion-in-unfunded-liabilities/


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman] * 2
    #23734839 - 10/13/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Again, GDP is largely irrelevant to the federal budget.

Unless you want to claim that returning our tax rates to where they were in the 60s (when our economy was strongest) hurts GDP, then I'd love to see the causation evidence for that.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman] * 1
    #23735196 - 10/13/16 07:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Tax rate percentages and "real" tax rates are two DIFFERENT issues, that chart does NOT illustrate that difference.

The last 70 years shows tax revenue relative to GDP has consistently remained in the 15-17% range.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S



While total revenue has remained about the same, the effective tax rates for the rich has gone WAY down.  Not sure if you knew that, but hopefully this chart makes that clear:



Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
our deficit hikes coincide with tax cuts. Are the two unrelated?



Correlation is not causation, if one could show that our tax revenue to GDP dropped from those tax cuts, you would have a valid point, but that's NOT the case. :shrug:



See above graph.  While total tax revenue has remained relatively constant, the poor and middle class are contributing a much greater share of revenue as a result of higher payroll taxes.

Quote:

qman said:
if one were to look at our future unfunded liabilities, we can see that it's almost impossible to fund regardless of higher taxes.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2013/10/23/does-the-united-states-have-128-trillion-in-unfunded-liabilities/



Future unfunded liabilities is a favorite conservative tactic to scare and deceive the public (maybe you yourself were deceived?)

The fact is, the reason future liabilities are "unfunded" is because we haven't collected taxes for future years yet.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23736445 - 10/14/16 09:09 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

"the effective tax rates for the rich has gone way down"

Yes, that is true, but the top 5% still more in taxes than they did in decades because of income and wealth inequality.

"the poor and middle class are contributing a much greater share"

No, the rich are paying more than ever because of the massive income and wealth inequality. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/13/high-income-americans-pay-most-income-taxes-but-enough-to-be-fair/

"the reason future liabilities are "unfunded" is because we haven't collected the taxes for the future years yet"

:facepalm:  Yeah, that's the main concern here.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman] * 1
    #23736605 - 10/14/16 10:04 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Tax rate percentages and "real" tax rates are two DIFFERENT issues, that chart does NOT illustrate that difference.

The last 70 years shows tax revenue relative to GDP has consistently remained in the 15-17% range.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S



While total revenue has remained about the same, the effective tax rates for the rich has gone WAY down.  Not sure if you knew that, but hopefully this chart makes that clear:





Yes, that is true, but the top 5% still more in taxes than they did in decades because of income and wealth inequality.



I see you are intentionally trying to be deceptive.  The chart above clearly shows the rich are paying a MUCH lower percentage than they did before the 80's.  The reason we collect more from them isn't because their taxes are too high, but because their incomes have become so great.  So they're paying a lower percentage on more money.  Get it?  Your argument that we shouldn't raise taxes on the rich because they pay too much is ridiculous.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
While total tax revenue has remained relatively constant, the poor and middle class are contributing a much greater share of revenue as a result of higher payroll taxes.



No, the rich are paying more than ever because of the massive income and wealth inequality.



I'm talking about percentage.  The rich today pay a lower percentage while the poor and middle class are contributing a higher percentage than they used to.  I understand that because the rich are making so much more today, they pay more in total.

Are you seriously arguing for trickle down economics?

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
if one were to look at our future unfunded liabilities, we can see that it's almost impossible to fund regardless of higher taxes.



Future unfunded liabilities is a favorite conservative tactic to scare and deceive the public (maybe you yourself were deceived?)

The fact is, the reason future liabilities are "unfunded" is because we haven't collected taxes for future years yet.



:facepalm:  Yeah, that's the main concern here.



A face palm?  Really?  So do you think we should already have funded our expected costs for the year 2350?  That would put your number in the quadrillions and make it sound even scarier!

You deserve the :facepalm:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23736869 - 10/14/16 11:36 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

"The chart shows the rich are paying a much lower percentage"

No, the chart shows tax rate percentages, NOT the "real" tax rate, you do realize the wealthy NEVER paid 70% of their income in Federal taxes? 

The chart also does not show the relative percentage of total tax revenue from the wealthy.

"So they're paying a lower percentage on more money"

I never disputed that potential reality.

"Your argument that we shouldn't raise taxes on the rich"

I never attempted to make that argument.

"The rich today pay a lower percentage"

No, they pay a higher overall percentage of the taxes because they have more of the wealth and income.

"Are you seriously arguing for trickle down economics"

:lolwut: I'm not sure why you're making all of these accusations.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman] * 2
    #23737565 - 10/14/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
While total revenue has remained about the same, the effective tax rates for the rich has gone WAY down.  Not sure if you knew that, but hopefully this chart makes that clear:





Yes, that is true, but the top 5% still more in taxes than they did in decades because of income and wealth inequality.



I see you are intentionally trying to be deceptive.  The chart above clearly shows the rich are paying a MUCH lower percentage than they did before the 80's.  The reason we collect more from them isn't because their taxes are too high, but because their incomes have become so great.  So they're paying a lower percentage on more money.  Get it?



No, the chart shows tax rate percentages, NOT the "real" tax rate, you do realize the wealthy NEVER paid 70% of their income in Federal taxes?



The chart DOES show “real” (effective) tax rates, not marginal tax rates.  Do you understand the difference?  Though the top marginal tax rate was as high as 90%, the EFFECTIVE (“real”) tax rate for most wealthy people was below 70%, as the chart shows (and as you mentioned).  But it was still a LOT higher than the effective (real) tax the wealthy are paying today.

By the way, the effective (real) tax on the wealthy today is also far less than their marginal tax rate.

Quote:

qman said:
The chart also does not show the relative percentage of total tax revenue from the wealthy.



Who cares about the relative percentage?  The effective (real) tax on the wealthy is the lowest ever and the middle class is making up the difference through higher payroll taxes.  If the wealthy pay more now because they’re making more, do you really think that entitles them to a lower tax rate?  I would argue the opposite is true.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Your argument that we shouldn't raise taxes on the rich because they pay too much is ridiculous.



I never attempted to make that argument.



What?!?  The Ecstatic said we need to restore taxes on the rich – your entire argument has been against that.  I have no idea what point you were trying to make if not that we shouldn’t restore higher taxes on the rich.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The rich today pay a lower percentage



No, they pay a higher overall percentage of the taxes because they have more of the wealth and income.



But their EFFECTIVE (real) tax rate is lower than ever.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Are you seriously arguing for trickle down economics



:lolwut: I'm not sure why you're making all of these accusations.



Because your entire argument has been against restoring taxes on the rich.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #23737612 - 10/14/16 04:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

restoring, exactly.

We're trying to put them back where they were before we had the tremendous deficit and resulting trillions in debt.

Its just like when Obama let (some of) the Bush tax cuts expire. "omg i can't believe obummer is RAISING taxes on us."

And in order for the rich to maintain their historically low effective tax rates, they convince people like qman that FIXING things and restoring their taxes to where they were and should be, would devastate the economy. Except there's no evidence of that. Just like there's no evidence for trickle down economics. Or that deregulation works. or any of the other economic arguments from the right.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #23737650 - 10/14/16 04:19 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

:awesomenod:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23740537 - 10/15/16 05:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
While total revenue has remained about the same, the effective tax rates for the rich has gone WAY down.  Not sure if you knew that, but hopefully this chart makes that clear:





Yes, that is true, but the top 5% still more in taxes than they did in decades because of income and wealth inequality.



I see you are intentionally trying to be deceptive.  The chart above clearly shows the rich are paying a MUCH lower percentage than they did before the 80's.  The reason we collect more from them isn't because their taxes are too high, but because their incomes have become so great.  So they're paying a lower percentage on more money.  Get it?



No, the chart shows tax rate percentages, NOT the "real" tax rate, you do realize the wealthy NEVER paid 70% of their income in Federal taxes?



The chart DOES show “real” (effective) tax rates, not marginal tax rates.  Do you understand the difference?  Though the top marginal tax rate was as high as 90%, the EFFECTIVE (“real”) tax rate for most wealthy people was below 70%, as the chart shows (and as you mentioned).  But it was still a LOT higher than the effective (real) tax the wealthy are paying today.

By the way, the effective (real) tax on the wealthy today is also far less than their marginal tax rate.

Quote:

qman said:
The chart also does not show the relative percentage of total tax revenue from the wealthy.



Who cares about the relative percentage?  The effective (real) tax on the wealthy is the lowest ever and the middle class is making up the difference through higher payroll taxes.  If the wealthy pay more now because they’re making more, do you really think that entitles them to a lower tax rate?  I would argue the opposite is true.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Your argument that we shouldn't raise taxes on the rich because they pay too much is ridiculous.



I never attempted to make that argument.



What?!?  The Ecstatic said we need to restore taxes on the rich – your entire argument has been against that.  I have no idea what point you were trying to make if not that we shouldn’t restore higher taxes on the rich.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The rich today pay a lower percentage



No, they pay a higher overall percentage of the taxes because they have more of the wealth and income.



But their EFFECTIVE (real) tax rate is lower than ever.

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Are you seriously arguing for trickle down economics



:lolwut: I'm not sure why you're making all of these accusations.



Because your entire argument has been against restoring taxes on the rich.




The chart is still misleading, the effective tax rate was never that high.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324705104578151601554982808

"In 1958, the top 3% of taxpayers earned 14.7% of all adjusted gross income and paid 29.2% of all federal income taxes. In 2010, the top 3% earned 27.2% of adjusted gross income and their share of all federal taxes rose proportionally, to 51%."

"In reality the vast majority of the top earners (in the 50's) faced lower effective rates than they do today"

"The tax code of the 1950's allowed upper income Americans to take exemptions and deductions that are unheard of today. Tax shelters were widespread"


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #23740791 - 10/15/16 08:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

At least conservatives have grey matter.  It's liberals that act like they have nothing but fecal matter up top.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #23740920 - 10/15/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:




The chart is still misleading, the effective tax rate was never that high.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324705104578151601554982808



I read your article.  Nowhere did it say the effective tax rate wasn't as high as the chart I presented shows (if it did, please tell us what the effective rate was in the 1950s).

Quote:

qman said:
"In 1958, the top 3% of taxpayers earned 14.7% of all adjusted gross income and paid 29.2% of all federal income taxes. In 2010, the top 3% earned 27.2% of adjusted gross income and their share of all federal taxes rose proportionally, to 51%."



This doesn't prove the effective rate was less that what the chart showed.

Quote:

qman said:
"In reality the vast majority of the top earners (in the 50's) faced lower effective rates than they do today"



Here he makes the claim, but he fails to back it up with any evidence.  That's what I've come to expect from Austrian school economists.

Quote:

qman said:
"The tax code of the 1950's allowed upper income Americans to take exemptions and deductions that are unheard of today. Tax shelters were widespread"



That's true.  As shown by my chart, people in the 91% bracket had an effective tax rate of about 60% tax.  That's about a 30% reduction.  I don't think the rich today get a 30% reduction from their 35% rate, confirming your point (but not confirming the effective tax rate was less that 60%).

Again, if you have evidence to show the 60% effective tax is wrong, I'd love to see it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: starfire_xes] * 3
    #23741707 - 10/16/16 08:36 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
At least conservatives have grey matter.  It's liberals that act like they have nothing but fecal matter up top.




Then why havent any of you posted in the Issues thread?


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23743775 - 10/16/16 08:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

So tedious.


--------------------
:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Great Scott] * 2
    #23743779 - 10/16/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Riiiiiggghhhtt


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #23743967 - 10/16/16 09:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

It requires too much grey matter.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23745101 - 10/17/16 10:24 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

https://mises.org/library/good-ol-days-when-tax-rates-were-90-percent

"in pretty much every year since 1950, the government has collected between 17 to 20 percent of GDP in taxes"

"no matter what the tax rate has been, the tax receipts have pretty much been the SAME"

"tax receipts from personal income taxes have consistently been between 7 and 9 percent (REGARDLESS OF THE RATE)"

"the percentage of taxes paid by the highest quintile of income earners has steadily gone up since 1980...the top 1 percent, which went from 15 percent in 1980 to just shy of 30 percent today"

"A study from the Congressional Research Service concludes that the effective tax rate for the top 0.01 percent of income earners during the period of 91-percent income taxes was actually 45 percent" http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/r42729_0917.pdf


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman]
    #23745148 - 10/17/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Once again, you're arguing something completely different.

I'm talking about the effective tax rate individual earners pay.  Yes, I know the rich pay more now in total because they make so much more, but their effective tax rate is still much lower than it used to be.  Do you understand?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23745178 - 10/17/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Once again, you're arguing something completely different.

I'm talking about the effective tax rate individual earners pay.  Yes, I know the rich pay more now in total because they make so much more, but their effective tax rate is still much lower than it used to be.  Do you understand?




Maybe you failed to read the last quote in my post. "the effective tax rate".


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman] * 2
    #23745214 - 10/17/16 11:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Once again, you're arguing something completely different.

I'm talking about the effective tax rate individual earners pay.  Yes, I know the rich pay more now in total because they make so much more, but their effective tax rate is still much lower than it used to be.  Do you understand?




Maybe you failed to read the last quote in my post. "the effective tax rate".

"A study from the Congressional Research Service concludes that the effective tax rate for the top 0.01 percent of income earners during the period of 91-percent income taxes was actually 45 percent" http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/r42729_0917.pdf



I did miss that.  But you've now proven my point - an effective tax rate of 45% is at least 50% higher than the effective tax rate is today.  Hence, our argument that we need to restore taxes on the rich to what they used to be.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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