|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 12 hours, 18 minutes
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#23746006 - 10/17/16 03:14 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Once again, you're arguing something completely different.
I'm talking about the effective tax rate individual earners pay. Yes, I know the rich pay more now in total because they make so much more, but their effective tax rate is still much lower than it used to be. Do you understand?
Maybe you failed to read the last quote in my post. "the effective tax rate".
"A study from the Congressional Research Service concludes that the effective tax rate for the top 0.01 percent of income earners during the period of 91-percent income taxes was actually 45 percent" http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/r42729_0917.pdf
I did miss that. But you've now proven my point - an effective tax rate of 45% is at least 50% higher than the effective tax rate is today. Hence, our argument that we need to restore taxes on the rich to what they used to be.
I showed it really wouldn't make much of a difference, what percentage do you think personal income taxes should be of GDP? 7 to 10 percent seems to be the historical norm. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/source-revenue-share-gdp
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman] 2
#23746232 - 10/17/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: You've now proven my point - an effective tax rate of 45% is at least 50% higher than the effective tax rate is today. Hence, our argument that we need to restore taxes on the rich to what they used to be.
I showed it really wouldn't make much of a difference, what percentage do you think personal income taxes should be of GDP? 7 to 10 percent seems to be the historical norm. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/source-revenue-share-gdp
No, you didn't show that it wouldn't make a difference. You simply showed that it hasn't made a difference. The reason total revenue has remained about the same is because the rich now pay a MUCH lower effective tax rate on a MUCH higher income.
If we restore the effective tax rate back up to 45%, which your article said it was, then we'd get 50% more tax revenue from the rich. Since the top 1% pay about 50% of the taxes, that means if we raised taxes on the top 1% by 50%, we'd get 25% more money each year than we do today.
That's HUGE!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 12 hours, 18 minutes
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#23746299 - 10/17/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: You've now proven my point - an effective tax rate of 45% is at least 50% higher than the effective tax rate is today. Hence, our argument that we need to restore taxes on the rich to what they used to be.
I showed it really wouldn't make much of a difference, what percentage do you think personal income taxes should be of GDP? 7 to 10 percent seems to be the historical norm. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/source-revenue-share-gdp
No, you didn't show that it wouldn't make a difference. You simply showed that it hasn't made a difference. The reason total revenue has remained about the same is because the rich now pay a MUCH lower effective tax rate on a MUCH higher income.
If we restore the effective tax rate back up to 45%, which your article said it was, then we'd get 50% more tax revenue from the rich. Since the top 1% pay about 50% of the taxes, that means if we raised taxes on the top 1% by 50%, we'd get 25% more money each year than we do today.
That's HUGE!
That's based on a very large assumption with all variables being equal, we know that's highly unlikely.
History has shown that anticipated tax revenue from certain tax rates and the actual revenue are two DIFFERENT realities.
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 7 hours, 43 minutes
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman]
#23746312 - 10/17/16 04:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
But for what reasons is that the case?
--------------------
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman] 1
#23746326 - 10/17/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: The reason total revenue has remained about the same is because the rich now pay a MUCH lower effective tax rate on a MUCH higher income.
If we restore the effective tax rate back up to 45%, which your article said it was, then we'd get 50% more tax revenue from the rich. Since the top 1% pay about 50% of the taxes, that means if we raised taxes on the top 1% by 50%, we'd get 25% more money each year than we do today.
That's HUGE!
That's based on a very large assumption with all variables being equal, we know that's highly unlikely.
So what's your hypothesis? That if we raise tax rates on anyone making over $500,000, they'll all give themselves pay decreases from $XX million down to $500,000?
You need to explain why a higher effective rate wouldn't bring in more revenue. The ONLY explanation I can come up with is that the wealthy will cut their incomes, which is HIGHLY unliley (if anything, they'll raise them even higher).
Edit: I see that The Ecstatic is asking the same question. 
Quote:
qman said: History has shown that anticipated tax revenue from certain tax rates and the actual revenue are two DIFFERENT realities.
I agreed with that on your first post. That's why we're talking about EFFECTIVE tax rates rather than MARGINAL tax rates.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 12 hours, 18 minutes
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23746371 - 10/17/16 04:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: But for what reasons is that the case?
There could be LOTS of unforeseeable reasons why that is the case.
Humans behave very differently than anticipated when it comes to money and investments depending on the tax consequences.
The larger question remains, why is personal income tax revenue always around 7-10% of GDP regardless of the tax rates? Because human behavior and psychology change depending on the tax consequences.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman] 1
#23746542 - 10/17/16 05:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said: The larger question remains, why is personal income tax revenue always around 7-10% of GDP regardless of the tax rates? Because human behavior and psychology change depending on the tax consequences.
10% of GDP is 43% more than 7% of GDP. That's a HUGE revenue disparity!!!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 12 hours, 18 minutes
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#23746570 - 10/17/16 05:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: The larger question remains, why is personal income tax revenue always around 7-10% of GDP regardless of the tax rates? Because human behavior and psychology change depending on the tax consequences.
10% of GDP is 43% more than 7% of GDP. That's a HUGE revenue disparity!!!
That's obvious, but it hardly confirms that goal is obtainable even with higher tax rates.
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: qman] 1
#23746598 - 10/17/16 06:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I only see two scenarios where the goal is unobtainable:
1. People pay themselves less (highly unlikely) 2. People cheat on their taxes (and risk jail time)
Do you see any others?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Great Scott
Trigger Lover


Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 19,797
Loc: Control Grid
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#23746699 - 10/17/16 06:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Trickle-down economics > Trick-'em-all economics
--------------------
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Great Scott]
#23746722 - 10/17/16 06:31 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Great Scott
Trigger Lover


Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 19,797
Loc: Control Grid
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#23746738 - 10/17/16 06:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I think you misunderstood me.
">" ≠"="
--------------------
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Great Scott] 1
#23746757 - 10/17/16 06:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Yes I did misunderstand , because trickle down economics IS trick 'em all economics. Are you actually saying you support trickle down?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#23746899 - 10/17/16 07:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Yes I did misunderstand , because trickle down economics IS trick 'em all economics. Are you actually saying you support trickle down?

of course he does
|
The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 7 hours, 43 minutes
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Ezuma] 2
#23747106 - 10/17/16 08:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Wait.
So are we gonna collectively ignore HU? I'm down.
--------------------
|
Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger



Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 32,557
Loc: California, US
Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: The Ecstatic] 2
#23747155 - 10/17/16 08:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Have you noticed how much better things are here while HU is banned? The only reason I temporarily stopped blocking him is because I wanted to see the context of what other people were telling him. Then I realized it's just more the same (what else would it be?)
If everyone ignores him, then we collectively don't have to wonder about how others are pointing out flaws in his logic, and we can all concentrate on intelligent discussion.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#23747187 - 10/17/16 08:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I only see two scenarios where the goal is unobtainable:
1. People pay themselves less (highly unlikely) 2. People cheat on their taxes (and risk jail time)
Do you see any others? 
Politicians could forego any major spending or deficit reduction and instead reward the increased revenues to other taxpayers in the form of deduction or credits. theoretically it could be a wash. super unlikely though.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Great Scott
Trigger Lover


Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 19,797
Loc: Control Grid
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#23747188 - 10/17/16 08:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Reeks of elitism in here.
--------------------
|
ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: Great Scott] 1
#23747197 - 10/17/16 08:51 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
maybe a little, but if we let this forum get dragged down to the pub's level, it will sort of become obsolete.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
|
Great Scott
Trigger Lover


Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 19,797
Loc: Control Grid
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
|
Re: Is the grey matter of all self-dentified conservatives some sort of guano composite? [Re: ballsalsa]
#23747213 - 10/17/16 08:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Libs want to take over a drug message board's political sub-forum, just like libs have taken over Universities, Government, Hollywood, etc.
Typical conqueror mindset. Far more sophisticated than the barbaric days of old, I'll give you that.
--------------------
|
|