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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Mad Season]
    #23702374 - 10/03/16 03:27 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Stamets has said a lot of false shit,( colonizing in the dark, 86F optimal temp, etc) so quoting him won't do much good around here.

The fact that I've had this exact experience:

Quote:

Mad Season said:
I've had some epic bruisers literally destroy people, and same with non bruisers. I've actually had more potent non bruisers than bruisers now that I think about it. In reality it's the exact same as flipping a coin lol





Basically makes most of that "Actives = bruising" nonsense just that... nonsense.  Where was the bruising on my most potent fruits ever grown?  Why don't my PE bruise very much even when they're strong enough to make people shit their pants?  Until those questions can be answered definitively I'm going to stick with thinking it's a crock of shit.


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
    #23702437 - 10/03/16 04:35 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Stamets has said a lot of false shit,( colonizing in the dark, 86F optimal temp, etc) so quoting him won't do much good around here.

The fact that I've had this exact experience:

Quote:

Mad Season said:
I've had some epic bruisers literally destroy people, and same with non bruisers. I've actually had more potent non bruisers than bruisers now that I think about it. In reality it's the exact same as flipping a coin lol





Basically makes most of that "Actives = bruising" nonsense just that... nonsense.  Where was the bruising on my most potent fruits ever grown?  Why don't my PE bruise very much even when they're strong enough to make people shit their pants?  Until those questions can be answered definitively I'm going to stick with thinking it's a crock of shit.




I have immense respect for Paul Stamets.  Hard for me to fathom why any mushroom freak wouldn't, although he's not infallible.

I think the 86F refers to running in composted substrates.  My experience is that in phased leached cow manure beds substrate temperatures can naturally climb into the high 90s, and you want to avoid it going over 100 since the thermophiles will get the upper hand in the core of the bed and kill the cubensis mycelium in the center, weakening the crop.  For that sort of technique, spawn running temperatures are measured from the substrate, not air temperature.

I attended a Stamets lecture on psilocybes a couple of years ago, and he gave a more nuanced explanation of the bluing reaction.  I'm sorry to say I don't retain the details of his explanation, but it was more complex than simply oxidation of psilocin.  Now my curiosity is piqued - I'll look into it further.

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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23702881 - 10/03/16 09:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Do you really want me to quote a huge page of text dude? I just woke up too... :frown:

No cubensis substrates don't thrive at 86, even internally. Internally they thrive at temps of 75-81. When in a bulk substrate this means an outside temp of 70-75 tops, due to thermogenesis.
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I've been saying that for years.  My petri dish studies a few years ago showed that cubensis reaches peak linear growth between 75F and 80F, then is flat until 83F, where it starts to slow down.  Mycelium at 86F is growing at about 2/3 the speed of mycelium at 80F.  In addition, the higher temps tend to stimulate thermophic molds and bacteria.

There's LOT'S of good information in TMC, but that 86F figure is one of the errors.
RR



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It was all posted on the other board.  I don't know if the threads are still there or not.  Bottom line was the tubs that had petri dishes between 75F and 81F showed no difference in growth.  Below 75F, and above 81F growth slowed down, with a rapid drop in colonization speed below 70F and above 83F.  At 86F, a petri dish would be 2/3 colonized, while its sister at 75F would be fully colonized.  Rate of growth at 86F was exactly the same as rate of growth at 72F, with fastest growth as said, occurring between 75F and 81F.

Note that these tests were for linear growth in the two dimensional plane of a petri dish.  In three dimensonal space such as in grain jars or bulk substrates, the effects of thermogenesis need to be considered, so ambient temps should be lowered slightly to compensate.
RR




Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
All cubensis I've grown bruised blue - some more than others.  There are psilocybes that don't bruise blue, but the most potent, such as Azurescens, stain very dark blue.



Why do people always come back to this to prove potency and bruising are related?

Quote:

Mad Season said:
Quote:

Homesteader said:
veryy cute! please explain to me further about the experiments you've conducted on the correlation between bluing and constituent active compounds?? Is it coincidental then that azures bruise extremely blue and are also the strongest variety?





They can also barely bruise and still rock...




Quote:


The common explanation is that the bruising is due to the oxidation of psilocin/psilocybin.  Wikipedia cites Stamets on that:

Quote:

The blue-staining species of Psilocybe are characterized by the presence of psilocin and psilocybin. This blue-staining reaction occurs after the fruit body has been injured, particularly near the base of the stalk.[19] This reaction is thought to be due to the oxidation of psilocybin after the outer surface of the fruit body has been breached.[20] The degree of bluing in a Psilocybe fruit body roughly correlates with the concentration of psilocin in the mushroom.[21]





I don't think that any of the white molds; mycogone, scopulariopsis, sepedonium, etc. stain blue on their own.  If a blue staining is taking place when they are present in cubensis culture it is because the cubensis mycelium is being injured by the contaminant and what you are seeing is the cubensis mycelium turning blue.  Or are the molds assimilating the tryptamines?



Well that's wrong with absolutely no evidence to back it up. The popular explanation was the earth was flat many years ago. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's true. First off cubensis mycelium has almost no actives, so if it's bruising hella blue with no psilocin present, explain that. Secondly, there are quinones in cubensis.

When cubensis enzymes digest things, they also digest cubensis itself. This causes bruising in not only this species, but every species that bruises, even the non-actice ones. Perhaps it's a different pigment the enzymes are digesting, but this is undoubtably a pigment getting digested along with the mold said enzymes are attempting to digest.

Quote:

Mad Season said:
:derp::facepalm: stamets made a completely baseless statement with absolutely no evidence to back it up. You could have dug around much more than that dude. Cmon now.



Quote:

Mad Season said:
IMO you just gotta try it all out yourself mate. Personally I've never done much light experiments besides prolonged direct sunlight. Which when done well has some very healthy looking fruits.

Pretty much everything involving bruising is up for debate because we don't have the equipment to test what sorts of shit is causing it. This post sums it up nicely. A psilocin solution does oxidize blue, but many indoles, amino acids, and enzymes in mushrooms that don't have psilocin but still bruise are inside cubensis mushrooms. Which actually could explain why there's different colors of bruising too.

Witch's hat for example bruises black because of L-DOPA, while boletes blue because of enzymes breaking down variegatic acid. Much like how cubensis enzymes are responsible for the breakdown of psilocin and psilocybin. Ive even seen it bruise green, I'd love to know if it's because of a different chemical.

The basic shit like fruiting conditions and surface area have already been covered, but a lot of the chemistry, and whatnot still needs a lot more research.



Read this carefully. Including the link I linked.

Some of the most potent psilocybes barely even bruise.. bruising is DEFINITELY NOT a way to indicate potency.



Quote:

Mad Season said:
Quote:

mogur said:
Bluing of non active Boletes, as RR mentioned, and non-bluing of some psilos, seems to go against the common belief that it is due to psilocin oxidation. However, right now, I have to toss my hat in with this 'urban legend'. Here's quote from Tom Volks about the bluing reaction in Boletes [check the cool bluing video on that page]-

Quote:

The blueing reaction is easily explained through biochemistry. A compound called variegatic acid remains colorless unless it is exposed to oxygen. The cell walls of Gyroporus cyanescens are easily broken, exposing the variegatic acid to the air. The oxygenase enzyme converts the variegatic acid to its quinone methide, which is blue. Interestingly, in many other boletes, in the absence of oxygen, variegatic acid is converted to variegatorubin, which is responsible to the red color found in many members of this group.




Chemists have tried to identify the chemical responsible for the blue color in psilos, and suprisingly haven't been able to pin it down. A quinone is a likely candidate for this pigment also, since their their alternating single and double bonds trap certain wavelengths. However, that will be determined by some future study.



Lol amazing what you can find on here. It's obviously a pigment involved here. Just like variegatic acid or L-DOPA.




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Edited by Mad Season (10/03/16 09:36 AM)

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InvisibleJacobStorm
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
    #23702980 - 10/03/16 09:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:


Basically makes most of that "Actives = bruising" nonsense just that... nonsense.  Where was the bruising on my most potent fruits ever grown?  Why don't my PE bruise very much even when they're strong enough to make people shit their pants?  Until those questions can be answered definitively I'm going to stick with thinking it's a crock of shit.




:whathesaid:
There are even deadly poisonous mushrooms that bruise blue and are not active in anyway.


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OfflineKenetic
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Mad Season]
    #23702986 - 10/03/16 09:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Holy shit.  That's a lot of info for someone that just woke up.  Thanks!


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Re: whats going on here [Re: Mad Season]
    #23703936 - 10/03/16 02:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Mad Season,

Thanks for all the info.  So potency in psilocybe mushrooms and bluing reaction do not have a direct correlation, and the mechanism of bluing is not fully understood.  Got it!

Quote:

No cubensis substrates don't thrive at 86, even internally. Internally they thrive at temps of 75-81. When in a bulk substrate this means an outside temp of 70-75 tops, due to thermogenesis.




Mad, have you done much growing on composted substrates?  By that I mean manure (or synthetic compost) that's been phase 2 pasteurized.  Have you tried that technique?  Its the technique outlined in great detail in The Mushroom Cultivator, and (IMO) the best way to grow large quantities of shrooms.  I've grown this way quite a bit, and my experience is that cubensis mycelium THRIVES in the 80s and 90s F, and it does so naturally.  Try to make it stay down in the 70s in its Shroomery approved optimum range and you'll dry out the beds with too much air flow.  Instead, let the mycelium do its thing and watch it soar up to the 90s as it reaches peak biological activity and fully seizes the poo beds.  Then, once the beds are fully colonized, you'll witness another thing that is considered bullshit here on this forum, but actually isn't:  temperature drop.  Once the beds have fully colonized then they stop growing and the internal temperature drops by ~10 deg - time to fruit! 

As you know, Cubensis is considered both a primary and secondary decomposer.  In nature it acts as a secondary decomposer inhabiting dung that has already been broken down by thermophiles.  In cultivation it can grow on a variety of non-composted substrates and acts as a primary decomposer.  My view is that Cubensis behaves quite differently on composted vs. non-composted substrates.  So, while your views may be very correct for growing in monotubs on coir, they may not hold true for a much larger composted substrate.

Edited by Mr.Caterpillar (10/03/16 02:49 PM)

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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23703950 - 10/03/16 02:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Heat makes things dry out more. Common evaporation lol.

I have had outdoor grows here in Canada when nights were dropping down to 35-40F. Days were not even higher than 65.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21856836

I live in a desert tundra too as you can see by the caps. I only had to water twice a week.

Perhaps when it's colder you just don't have as much rain? Idk but technically colder should not make things dry out quicker.

Btw I grow with pure hpoo lol.


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No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Edited by Mad Season (10/03/16 03:12 PM)

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OfflineKenetic
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Mad Season]
    #23703989 - 10/03/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That's pretty cool.  Too bad I can't rate you again lol


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Re: whats going on here [Re: Mad Season]
    #23704032 - 10/03/16 03:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

"Dry out the beds" is sort of a sloppy way of putting it - my bad.  What I mean is that the cropping surface will dry out with too much air flow, and that can happen even in a very humid room.

Nice work on the out of climate outdoors grow!  We used to take the spent beds (after 2nd or 3rd flush) and lay them down in the garden and cover them with straw.  I don't live in a tropical zone either, but they'd do well in the Summer and Fall here and sometimes seeming to rejuvenate outdoors and produce some nice flushes.  I wish I took more pictures then, but I have this:



Gills are white because its a sporeless strain.
We always watered them with used dish water.  They never seemed to mind at all!

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