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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblerackem
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Ezuma]
    #23703594 - 10/03/16 01:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

im pretty sure he didnt mean the religious creator, man.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: rackem]
    #23703601 - 10/03/16 01:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

rackem said:
im pretty sure he didnt mean the religious creator, man.




then which creator?


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Invisiblerackem
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Ezuma]
    #23703607 - 10/03/16 01:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

reread his sentence with the founding fathers in mind. brings a different aspect to what he said.


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: rackem]
    #23703612 - 10/03/16 01:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Well being as it is easy for murderers to get guns I would say its a right.


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OfflineKing Klick
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Ezuma] * 1
    #23703613 - 10/03/16 01:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

What if I told you there's never been any rights?
Quote:

Ezuma said:
Quote:

rackem said:
im pretty sure he didnt mean the religious creator, man.




then which creator?



Whatever one that's not real anyways. They left it up to choice.


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: rackem]
    #23703619 - 10/03/16 01:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

A right, but being able to buy one easily is a privilege.

I'm definitely in favor of making them a bit harder to get. I think there should be a permit and test you have to take just like getting your driver's license. You need a year of training before taking on the hallowed position of gun owner.

But yeah I support the right to bear arms, and for me that includes automatic weapons, if it's good enough for the military it's good enough for any adult.


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Ezuma]
    #23703621 - 10/03/16 01:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds like you are unaware of how the Bill of Rights was devised. It wasn't written to grant rights, it was written to enumerate and preserve the rights that were already granted to individuals upon birth. Were you born with the ability to speak? Does anyone have the right to prevent you from speaking? Absolutely not. To do so is to restrict an individuals natural-born right.

Same with having a weapon. Any kind of weapon. It only becomes a problem when you use that weapon in way that violates another individual. There is nothing inherently wrong with simply having a gun.


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Great Scott]
    #23703628 - 10/03/16 01:27 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Nothing is a right. Rights are made up.




Bullshit. These rights are endowed by our creator and are thus self-evident. The Bill of Rights doesn't invent these rights, it preserves them.



What are rights composed of? Whre are they found in nature? How can you amend something that is "endowed by our creator". Why did our creator only give people from wealthy countries rights? Why do different countries have different rights?


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Invisiblerackem
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: g00ru]
    #23703630 - 10/03/16 01:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

you can still buy automatic weapons...

just have 20k laying around and apply for a tax stamp.


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Great Scott]
    #23703635 - 10/03/16 01:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Sounds like you are unaware of how the Bill of Rights was devised. It wasn't written to grant rights, it was written to enumerate and preserve the rights that were already granted to individuals upon birth. Were you born with the ability to speak? Does anyone have the right to prevent you from speaking? Absolutely not. To do so is to restrict an individuals natural-born right.

Same with having a weapon. Any kind of weapon. It only becomes a problem when you use that weapon in way that violates another individual. There is nothing inherently wrong with simply having a gun.



I dont know about you but i had to learn to speak myself. I wasnt born being able to speak and i dont know a single person who was.


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Great Scott]
    #23703655 - 10/03/16 01:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Nothing is a right. Rights are made up.




Bullshit. These rights are endowed by our creator and are thus self-evident. The Bill of Rights doesn't invent these rights, it preserves them.



What are rights composed of? Whre are they found in nature? How can you amend something that is "endowed by our creator". Why did our creator only give people from wealthy countries rights? Why do different countries have different rights?



Found in nature:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
The right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right. It's the right to having a means of defense. A caveman has the fundamental right to pick up a rock in defense against another caveman who pick up a rock. If a caveman fashions a club, the other caveman also has the right to fashion his own club. Fast forward to swords. If there's other people walking around with swords and you have the ability to make or acquire your own sword, you have that natural right to do so.

It's no different with guns. Up until 1934, everything was above board and in full compliance with the 2nd Amendment. Obviously concessions have been made since then.




If other countries have Constitutions that allow for rights violations, then that's precisely their goddamn problem... rights violations. The U.S. Government has increasingly butchered our Constitution as well, so it's not just a problem in other countries, FYI.


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #23703661 - 10/03/16 01:34 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Sounds like you are unaware of how the Bill of Rights was devised. It wasn't written to grant rights, it was written to enumerate and preserve the rights that were already granted to individuals upon birth. Were you born with the ability to speak? Does anyone have the right to prevent you from speaking? Absolutely not. To do so is to restrict an individuals natural-born right.

Same with having a weapon. Any kind of weapon. It only becomes a problem when you use that weapon in way that violates another individual. There is nothing inherently wrong with simply having a gun.



I dont know about you but i had to learn to speak myself. I wasnt born being able to speak and i dont know a single person who was.




You're completely missing the point.


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Invisiblevandago
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: falsereality]
    #23703685 - 10/03/16 01:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

falsereality said:
Quote:

Asante said:
What kinda gun will you be getting?




:popcorn:





A squirtgun.


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OfflineBANANA.MAN
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Great Scott]
    #23703710 - 10/03/16 01:43 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Quote:

BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Sounds like you are unaware of how the Bill of Rights was devised. It wasn't written to grant rights, it was written to enumerate and preserve the rights that were already granted to individuals upon birth. Were you born with the ability to speak? Does anyone have the right to prevent you from speaking? Absolutely not. To do so is to restrict an individuals natural-born right.

Same with having a weapon. Any kind of weapon. It only becomes a problem when you use that weapon in way that violates another individual. There is nothing inherently wrong with simply having a gun.



I dont know about you but i had to learn to speak myself. I wasnt born being able to speak and i dont know a single person who was.




You're completely missing the point.



You are missing the point. If you have to work for something its not a right. Explain mutes. They were not granted the right to speak. So only some people gets rights?


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
    #23703736 - 10/03/16 01:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You're still missing the point. 

A deaf mute has the right to make any hand gesture or guttural, unintelligible utterance he wants. Just as someone who learns his culture's language and has earned his ability to speak words with discernible meanings has had that right all along.

Just because you have to earn your ability to use a right doesn't mean it wasn't a right all along. Take the 2nd amendment: You aren't born with the right to receive free guns and free weapons training. You are born with the right to earn those things (or be gifted them, if you should be so fortunate).


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Great Scott]
    #23703746 - 10/03/16 01:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Sounds like you are unaware of how the Bill of Rights was devised. It wasn't written to grant rights, it was written to enumerate and preserve the rights that were already granted to individuals upon birth. Were you born with the ability to speak? Does anyone have the right to prevent you from speaking? Absolutely not. To do so is to restrict an individuals natural-born right.

Same with having a weapon. Any kind of weapon. It only becomes a problem when you use that weapon in way that violates another individual. There is nothing inherently wrong with simply having a gun.




rights are imaginary, they're a good idea, but nature has no concept of rights, and for most of history rulers and didn't either. Arguably the 'rights' we all hold are really privileges, as the state has the power to take them away and end your life if it so pleases. That doesn't sound much like 'inalienable rights' to me

don't get me wrong, I'm all for rights I just think we have to be realistic about how we got them and how easily they could be taken away


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Ezuma]
    #23703789 - 10/03/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

What you're describing is tyranny. Particularly, government tyranny. Just because a tyrant has the physical ability to take away your rights, doesn't mean those rights never existed. It just means that the ability to violate those rights has also always existed.

It's terrifying to me how limited your guys' comprehension is regarding natural rights and the true spirit behind the Bill of Rights. You wouldn't know freedom if it bit you on the ass.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Great Scott]
    #23703851 - 10/03/16 02:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
What you're describing is tyranny. Particularly, government tyranny. Just because a tyrant has the physical ability to take away your rights, doesn't mean those rights never existed. It just means that the ability to violate those rights has also always existed.

It's terrifying to me how limited your guys' comprehension is regarding natural rights and the true spirit behind the Bill of Rights. You wouldn't know freedom if it bit you on the ass.




yes, but arguably every government ever has been tyrannical to some extent. I would argue those rights ought to be upheld, defended and fought for of course, but I think it i silly to say they are god given or in any way natural. They are constructs, arrived at through philosophy, a lot of it religiously based no doubt, but they are imo one of the greatest achievement of men, not god. Which is exactly why they need to be defended, because they can be so easily taken away. I suppose my argument is a semantically based one and really I agree with you as to the importance of said rights


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Ezuma]
    #23703868 - 10/03/16 02:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ezuma said:
constructs, arrived at through philosophy



Quote:

Ezuma said:
I suppose my argument is a semantically based one




Basically, yes.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Is owning a gun a right or a privilege? [Re: Great Scott]
    #23703882 - 10/03/16 02:25 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Quote:

Ezuma said:
constructs, arrived at through philosophy



Quote:

Ezuma said:
I suppose my argument is a semantically based one




Basically, yes.




glad we agree on rights :thumbup:


Edited by Ezuma (10/03/16 02:25 PM)


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