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AkaAlias
Pondering Pondscum

Registered: 09/25/15
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Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia.
#23699313 - 10/02/16 07:13 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Recently I acquired a 150ml soxhlet extractor.
I also have about 60g of fresh sclerotia lying around. The consensus seems to be about 70% of that weight would be water, or some 42g of water.
I've read drying sclerotia resuls in a great loss of potency.
I am considering chopping it all up and/or using a mortar and pestle to grind it and using the soxhlet extractor and some 96% ethanol to do an extraction. I would add a bit of ascorbic acid to counteract oxidation. Any liquid left over from grinding in the mortar could be added to the soxhlet extractor.
Any thoughts on this? My goal is to store active ingredients in solution in the freezer and not try to reduce to goo, let alone crystals.
-------------------- This and that for tit for tat Gobbledygook in my top hat Bricks for breakfast what a feast Will you join unleash the beast?
HiRes Sig
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: AkaAlias]
#23699792 - 10/02/16 10:38 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Chop up boil in water. Boil water down to reasonable volume. Pour in ice cube trays. Add a bit of ethanol back in if you're worried about preservation
Water is a better solvent for the actives
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Greg
always learning




Registered: 10/28/15
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23700037 - 10/02/16 12:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Definitely use water or methanol. Ethanol is a poor solvent for the active compounds you're trying to extract.
There is much discussion of extraction over on the chem forum: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/92
You could try the soxhlet, but plain reflux would probably work just as well.
Soxhlets are more for stuff with limited solubility in a given solvent, psilocybin & psilocin are very soluble in water so you don't really need a special apparatus.
What you'd probably end up with would be psilocybin/psilocin plus an abundance of other crap that otherwise would have stayed in the truffles if extracted in regular reflux.
Edited by Greg (10/02/16 12:23 PM)
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: Greg]
#23702100 - 10/03/16 12:20 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Killer answers guys 
They are totally right. 150 ml is also kinda small, depending on what capabilities you'd like. Either way, standard reflux is better suited.
and can't understate how much boiling down will be required to work efficiently in such a small volume
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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AkaAlias
Pondering Pondscum

Registered: 09/25/15
Posts: 63
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: Greg]
#23709217 - 10/05/16 08:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you for your advice! I guess I'll be using water with a bit of ascorbic acid and leave the soxhlet for now.
Any idea on how long I should submerge the chopped up sclerotia? Seeing the melting point of the active ingredients is well above 200 degrees centigrade, I guess I shouldn't be worrying about simmering or boiling, right?
I'll probably boil it down and add some ethanol later as a preservative.
Quote:
Greg said: Definitely use water or methanol. Ethanol is a poor solvent for the active compounds you're trying to extract.
I don't want to use methanol as I don't want to reduce to goo/crystals and thus would be consuming the solvent.
Thank you again!
-------------------- This and that for tit for tat Gobbledygook in my top hat Bricks for breakfast what a feast Will you join unleash the beast?
HiRes Sig
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krypto2000
Unknown


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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: AkaAlias]
#23709452 - 10/05/16 10:12 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Psilocin is "poorly solube" in water, very solube in 70% ethanol, and psilocybin is solube in water and poorly solube in ethanol. I believe ~80% MeOH is the best solvent to pull both of them while also preventing phosphorylation of the psilocybin to psilocin. If you do extract with water and boil it down keep in mind that you will likely have only psilocin left for this reason, which is not a bad thing but it is less stable zo care must be taken to preserve it. I would add some abscorbic acid as mentioned to prevent oxidization, before the extraction ideally but definitely before boiling it down. I'd also add some ethanol near the end to prevent any kind of fungal or bacterial growth from long term storage.
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Greg
always learning




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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: krypto2000]
#23709462 - 10/05/16 10:15 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
krypto2000 said: Psilocin is "poorly soluble" in water
Interesting. I was under the impression both were highly soluble in water.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: Greg]
#23709668 - 10/05/16 11:38 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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They are
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23711101 - 10/05/16 07:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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But like... how does this relate to mycology?
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Greg
always learning




Registered: 10/28/15
Posts: 1,536
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: Inocuole]
#23711119 - 10/05/16 07:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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It doesn't, not to mention advanced mycology... Hence why I linked this further up: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/92
People still can't figure out where to post apparently.
Edited by Greg (10/05/16 07:38 PM)
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krypto2000
Unknown


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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23713929 - 10/06/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Greg said:
Quote:
krypto2000 said: Psilocin is "poorly soluble" in water
Interesting. I was under the impression both were highly soluble in water.

Quote:
bodhisatta said: They are
I don't know for certain, but was basing it on this as it's the only reference I have been able to find. It says:
Quote:
Soluble in 70% ethanol. Poorly soluble in dry ethanol, and poorly soluble in ethanol less than 60%. Very slightly soluble in water
It's referencing the Merck index however it is currently a dead link so we can't verify it. Until I find a source, or observe, otherwise I will assume it to be true.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: krypto2000] 2
#23714449 - 10/06/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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erowid is shit,
Actually form Merck index (psilocybin)
Soluble in 120 parts boiling methanol; difficultly soluble in ethanol; practically insoluble in chloroform, benzene. Soluble in 20 parts boiling water
way more soluble in water than anything else
the merck index 11 12 and 13th I looked through don't have solubility listed for psilocin though. I would have to guess you're absolutely fine using water on this compound as well, considering the fact that no one ever reports problems with tea potency if anything tea is the best way to get your bank for your buck out of mushrooms anyway. not only that but it gets changed to psilocybin anyway
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krypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23714883 - 10/07/16 12:41 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: erowid is shit,
Actually form Merck index (psilocybin)
Soluble in 120 parts boiling methanol; difficultly soluble in ethanol; practically insoluble in chloroform, benzene. Soluble in 20 parts boiling water
way more soluble in water than anything else
the merck index 11 12 and 13th I looked through don't have solubility listed for psilocin though. I would have to guess you're absolutely fine using water on this compound as well, considering the fact that no one ever reports problems with tea potency if anything tea is the best way to get your bank for your buck out of mushrooms anyway. not only that but it gets changed to psilocybin anyway
Psilocybin is significantly more polar because of the phosphate esters though so that makes sense. Looking at those numbers it would seem reasonable that psilocin is exactly as stated then. That reference was not erowid, it was the dmt-nexus, which isn't any better, but as I said it was directly pulled from the Merck Index. Psilocybin's solubility was never disputed.
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AkaAlias
Pondering Pondscum

Registered: 09/25/15
Posts: 63
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: krypto2000]
#23779638 - 10/28/16 09:51 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorry I posted this in the wrong forum.
I was going to do the extraction later tonight. Any idea on how much water I should minimally use for 75g fresh sclerotia?
Thanks everyone!
-------------------- This and that for tit for tat Gobbledygook in my top hat Bricks for breakfast what a feast Will you join unleash the beast?
HiRes Sig
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krypto2000
Unknown


Registered: 12/05/06
Posts: 11,579
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: AkaAlias]
#23780018 - 10/28/16 01:14 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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You shouldn't need more than it takes to cover them really, but I'd do at least 2-3 pulls. Filtration might become an issue as well, it has for me, in which case excess water may be necessary to aid in that or you may want to do a rough filtration and then stick your filtrate in the fridge to let the shit settle at the bottom and then decant it instead of filtering it.
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AkaAlias
Pondering Pondscum

Registered: 09/25/15
Posts: 63
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: krypto2000]
#23781966 - 10/29/16 07:33 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
krypto2000 said: You shouldn't need more than it takes to cover them really, but I'd do at least 2-3 pulls. Filtration might become an issue as well, it has for me, in which case excess water may be necessary to aid in that or you may want to do a rough filtration and then stick your filtrate in the fridge to let the shit settle at the bottom and then decant it instead of filtering it.
Thank you!
I was wondering this because I don't know the definition of a "part" as mentioned in the Merck index reference by Bodhisatta.
-------------------- This and that for tit for tat Gobbledygook in my top hat Bricks for breakfast what a feast Will you join unleash the beast?
HiRes Sig
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stevo

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 5,100
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. *DELETED* [Re: AkaAlias]
#23789082 - 10/31/16 04:03 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Post deleted by stevo
Reason for deletion: .
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dankington
The Stranger




Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 4,577
Loc: 8te
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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: bodhisatta]
#23789176 - 10/31/16 04:38 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: erowid is shit,
Actually form Merck index (psilocybin)
Soluble in 120 parts boiling methanol; difficultly soluble in ethanol; practically insoluble in chloroform, benzene. Soluble in 20 parts boiling water
way more soluble in water than anything else
the merck index 11 12 and 13th I looked through don't have solubility listed for psilocin though. I would have to guess you're absolutely fine using water on this compound as well, considering the fact that no one ever reports problems with tea potency if anything tea is the best way to get your bank for your buck out of mushrooms anyway. not only that but it gets changed to psilocybin anyway
chop up your stones. Place them into a saucepan of water at a rolling boil. Keep it goin' until the water gets good and cloudy. Enjoy!
I've stopped lemon tekking, as the acid creates unnecessary stomach discomfort, and I find stones are a bit more acidic to begin with. Also, what stevo said about alcohol is accurate.
I was recommended to put crushed, dried mushrooms into a shotglass of alcohol. Leave for 24 hours and then drink. It was a terrible time. Save alcohol for the comedown.
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krypto2000
Unknown


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Re: Question concerning soxhlet ethanol extraction on fresh Sclerotia. [Re: stevo]
#23789177 - 10/31/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 2 months ago) |
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Were they wild? That does not sound like a psychedelic mushroom at all, it sounds a lot like you poisoned yourself.
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