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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Class in America * 1
    #23697234 - 10/01/16 01:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

America is engaged in the pursuit of masking class distinctions.  Class is of course present, but we pretend it isn't.  We are as hierarchical as any civilized society -- and perhaps much more so -- but we pretend we are all "equal."  An absurdity, to be sure.

I am very much of the opinion that all persons are equal before God, and should have an equal right to life.  In that sense, I think the American attitude is appropriate.  But then to extend this to all facets is, I think, a mistake and a subversion of the truth.

Do you see validity in this?  Is the American populace deluded, or complacent?  Would we be served better if we more openly thought about class?


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Offlineyeah
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23697245 - 10/01/16 01:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The class system is utter dog balls.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: yeah]
    #23697249 - 10/01/16 01:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

yeah said:
The class system is utter dog balls.




Yes but how can anyone sit back and honestly argue that we don't have very apparent class lines in the U.S.?  We most certainly do!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23697283 - 10/01/16 01:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
...
Do you see validity in this?  Is the American populace deluded, or complacent?  Would we be served better if we more openly thought about class?



Look;
Donald Trump is one of two rising stars, class just don't mean what it used to.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #23697285 - 10/01/16 01:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

That's right.

Any why anyone would think that a dishonest, obsequious white billionaire real estate mogul from Manhattan has his or her interests at heart is beyond my understanding.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23697552 - 10/01/16 03:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
That's right.

Any why anyone would think that a dishonest, obsequious white billionaire real estate mogul from Manhattan has his or her interests at heart is beyond my understanding.




Because it's better than Mormons, Alzheimer's patients, and warmongers who invade Iraq because God told them to?

Trump seems excellent compared to the human excrement that usually leads the Republican party.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Class in America [Re: viktor]
    #23697602 - 10/01/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
That's right.

Any why anyone would think that a dishonest, obsequious white billionaire real estate mogul from Manhattan has his or her interests at heart is beyond my understanding.




Because it's better than Mormons, Alzheimer's patients, and warmongers who invade Iraq because God told them to?

Trump seems excellent compared to the human excrement that usually leads the Republican party.



can you re-run your comparison algorithm please
even superstitious warmongers are less scary than trump who is as capricious as Kim Jong-un or his dad Kim Jong-il


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23697670 - 10/01/16 04:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Would we be served better if we more openly thought about class?




maybe

first we need to know how you will define and label the classes ...

hmmmm ....


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23697671 - 10/01/16 04:27 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Because it's better than Mormons, Alzheimer's patients, and warmongers who invade Iraq because God told them to?

Trump seems excellent compared to the human excrement that usually leads the Republican party.




First of all, if you think Trump is good for Americans, you obviously haven't had the media access to him that we have.  Yes, human excrement usually heads the republican party.  And Trump is just another turd, dude.  But I won't get going on that except to say that unlike you New Zealanders, Lady Liberty has a thermonuclear arsenal, and I (and millions of others) would not trust the petty, truculent, thin-skinned, reactionary Trump to be its guardian.

I just feel that we're hiding the truth from ourselves when we all pretend to be true equals.  And it occurs to me that we could give the plutocrats a harder time if we recognized our plight along class lines.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23697747 - 10/01/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

the place with the most class consciousness would seem to be: prisons. Other groups into being separate are gang bangers, hell angles, mormons, amish, mensa members, prepers, nra members, kkk members, nuring home residents, etc,etc ...

doesn't seem like a great endorsement for the idea

.... and are we just going to put these groups have that no simple relevant relationship, into a few simple economic categories...

of course the irs and 'justice' system have there own methods ...


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: laughingdog]
    #23697848 - 10/01/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The fact remains that not everyone is equal, so there are bound to be a lot of losers in this equation who don't know the difference.  It is true that too much class consciousness can be oppressive, but not enough may be inadvisable as well.  I reckon that our leaders and the people who direct them would be less untouchable if there were more class consciousness -- where? -- at the lower end of the economic spectrum.  We have 40 million below the poverty line in America, and 160 million living paycheck to paycheck.  Wouldn't a little more class consciousness make things more equitable?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23697913 - 10/01/16 06:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I suppose it would if wealth actually reduced fear and opened hearts

but apparently it does not have that effect ...

and since the wealthy actually run things ...

like wise academic success does not of itself reduce fear and open hearts or produce enlightenment ... so again the intelligencia are not going to save us either

And the best Mr. E. Musk billionarie of electric car fame, and J. Bezos of Amazon can come up with is stupid space shit, so neither smarts nor wealth gaurantee anything. And Although apparently Gates (of Microsoft) after being a brutal monopolist for years is trying to help with Aids in africa, I doubt it will change the world at all, unfortunately.

if these guys had any imagination they would put some of their money into developing a contraceptive that made sex more fun, and making it available world wide for zip. Should be simple with billions of dollars and crisper gene editing technology and what we know about dopamine receptors etc.- that might actually effect the planet - how come an old fool like me, still here well past his expiration date, can think of this and these smarter, richer, more energetic, socially connected folks, all, actually think inside the box?

I doubt telling folks details of suffering, will do much more than santa and slavation army guys ringing bells outside grocery stores at christmas does.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: laughingdog]
    #23697932 - 10/01/16 06:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Well, that's a good post.

Quote:

laughingdog said:
if these guys had any imagination they would put some of their money into developing a contraceptive that made sex more fun, and making it available world wide for zip. Should be simple with billions of dollars and crisper gene editing technology and what we know about dopamine receptors etc.- that might actually effect the planet - how come an old fool like me, still here well past his expiration date, can think of this and these smarter, richer, more energetic, socially connected folks, all, actually think inside the box?





:thumbup:


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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23698407 - 10/01/16 09:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The nuclear threat is a total hoax. The warheads aren't even armed.

The governments of the USA, Russia, China and Britain have colluded to keep their populations scared and submissive by fabricating the threat of nuclear war.

There is zero chance of a nuclear war on Earth, unless it's caused by a rogue state actor like a Pakistani general who commandeers a nuke or North Korea.

Stop shitting your pants in fear.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: viktor]
    #23698428 - 10/01/16 09:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not fearful at all, and I can assure you that there are over a thousand nuclear weapons on ready status at all times for the United States.  That's not a secret, and it's not disinformation.  You think those boomers in the oceans don't have warheads on their missiles?  Each one has 200 MIRVs.  Wake the fuck up, dude.

Now then, that doesn't mean I think they'll be used.  But I don't want a guy as immature and thin-skinned as Trump to have anything to do with them.

I have no fear of a nuclear attack.  It's just that we've never had a presidential candidate as incompetent to do the job as Trump, and I include George W. Bush and Millard Fillmore on that list.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23698514 - 10/01/16 09:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
America is engaged in the pursuit of masking class distinctions.  Class is of course present, but we pretend it isn't.  We are as hierarchical as any civilized society -- and perhaps much more so -- but we pretend we are all "equal."  An absurdity, to be sure.

I am very much of the opinion that all persons are equal before God, and should have an equal right to life.  In that sense, I think the American attitude is appropriate.  But then to extend this to all facets is, I think, a mistake and a subversion of the truth.

Do you see validity in this?  Is the American populace deluded, or complacent?  Would we be served better if we more openly thought about class?




I will guess that in history the greater the wealth disparity the more classes are socially acknowledged. To what extent this is true depends on how much people believe it is true. There could be a generational lag between the reality and the perception so that things are always either better or worse than they appear.


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23698529 - 10/01/16 09:56 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I'm not fearful at all, and I can assure you that there are over a thousand nuclear weapons on ready status at all times for the United States.  That's not a secret, and it's not disinformation.  You think those boomers in the oceans don't have warheads on their missiles?  Each one has 200 MIRVs.  Wake the fuck up, dude.

Now then, that doesn't mean I think they'll be used.  But I don't want a guy as immature and thin-skinned as Trump to have anything to do with them.

I have no fear of a nuclear attack.  It's just that we've never had a presidential candidate as incompetent to do the job as Trump, and I include George W. Bush and Millard Fillmore on that list.




None of them are armed - you can think it through for yourself quite simply:

Say you're the President. Under what circumstances would you allow some pleb to push the button and fire a nuclear weapon at an enemy target? Consider that the consequences of this action are the end of the world.

There are none. You could never trust the guy pushing the button to make his own decision, you could never trust him to rely on his superior, you could never trust his superior.

It's a total hoax. Unclench those buttocks.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: viktor]
    #23698597 - 10/01/16 10:27 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Your thinking is sound, but you're wrong.  There are many military safeguards in place to make sure only the president can authorize the use of a nuclear weapon.

For example, the SLBM submarines.  There are three keys needed to launch the missiles.  Two of the three keys have security procedures that only the Commander and two other seamen can coordinate to bring to the bridge.  The third key is in a combination safe and can only be accessed when the president radios the combination to the submarine.

I guess you didn't think of that.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: Rahz]
    #23698602 - 10/01/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I will guess that in history the greater the wealth disparity the more classes are socially acknowledged. To what extent this is true depends on how much people believe it is true. There could be a generational lag between the reality and the perception so that things are always either better or worse than they appear.




Very interesting point. :thumbup:


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23698685 - 10/01/16 11:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Your thinking is sound, but you're wrong.  There are many military safeguards in place to make sure only the president can authorize the use of a nuclear weapon.

For example, the SLBM submarines.  There are three keys needed to launch the missiles.  Two of the three keys have security procedures that only the Commander and two other seamen can coordinate to bring to the bridge.  The third key is in a combination safe and can only be accessed when the president radios the combination to the submarine.

I guess you didn't think of that.




Think it through further - how does the Commander know that it's the President on the other end of the radio?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23698709 - 10/01/16 11:24 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
America is engaged in the pursuit of masking class distinctions.  Class is of course present, but we pretend it isn't.  We are as hierarchical as any civilized society -- and perhaps much more so -- but we pretend we are all "equal."  An absurdity, to be sure.

I am very much of the opinion that all persons are equal before God, and should have an equal right to life.  In that sense, I think the American attitude is appropriate.  But then to extend this to all facets is, I think, a mistake and a subversion of the truth.

Do you see validity in this?  Is the American populace deluded, or complacent?  Would we be served better if we more openly thought about class?




Very insightful and thoughtful post.
the short answers to the questions posed are Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Class in America [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23698816 - 10/01/16 11:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
America is engaged in the pursuit of masking class distinctions.  Class is of course present, but we pretend it isn't.  We are as hierarchical as any civilized society -- and perhaps much more so -- but we pretend we are all "equal."  An absurdity, to be sure.

I am very much of the opinion that all persons are equal before God, and should have an equal right to life.  In that sense, I think the American attitude is appropriate.  But then to extend this to all facets is, I think, a mistake and a subversion of the truth.

Do you see validity in this?  Is the American populace deluded, or complacent?  Would we be served better if we more openly thought about class?




Very insightful and thoughtful post.
the short answers to the questions posed are Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.




karl marx analysis and communism are based on the idea of legislating
economic equality & classe equality - it didnt work

we are aware of class
and love it
movie actors, rock stars, football heros et etc
all undeservedly lucky
and the public and loves it
and supports making them even wealthier

you all seem to have an idealistic view


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InvisibletHEfLY
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23698920 - 10/02/16 12:52 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

All people are equal before God, but you're right that socially the situation is more nuanced than that. My opinion is that attacking the class structure of a society is like attacking the foundations of a house - you can create some perfectly equal rubble but you wont be able to live in it. Every part is necessary but they can't all be the same.

I see value in class structure and hierarchy. Successful cultures have always been maintained by the aristocracy but today everything is aimed at the lowest common denominator and we can see the western world has degenerated, from St Peters Basillica to Piss Christ and Hollywood. The same is true with our morals and politics and spirituality as well. I blame capitalists and marxists equally because both seek to undermine the naturally occuring hierarchy for profit and power, respectively.

Why not let people be what they are? It's natural for people to form groups and do their own thing, this is how individuation occurs on a social level. Let kings be kings and let warriors be warriors. Let outcasts be outcasts. A truly equal society is not only impossible but also undesirable because egalitarianism and the elimination of value judgements and has lead us to a meaningless world in which people feel no belonging or security.

The pretense of absolute equality causes more problems than some material inequality does, if you ask me.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: tHEfLY]
    #23699557 - 10/02/16 09:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tHEfLY said:
All people are equal before God, but you're right that socially the situation is more nuanced than that. My opinion is that attacking the class structure of a society is like attacking the foundations of a house - you can create some perfectly equal rubble but you wont be able to live in it. Every part is necessary but they can't all be the same.

I see value in class structure and hierarchy. Successful cultures have always been maintained by the aristocracy but today everything is aimed at the lowest common denominator and we can see the western world has degenerated, from St Peters Basillica to Piss Christ and Hollywood. The same is true with our morals and politics and spirituality as well. I blame capitalists and marxists equally because both seek to undermine the naturally occuring hierarchy for profit and power, respectively.

Why not let people be what they are? It's natural for people to form groups and do their own thing, this is how individuation occurs on a social level. Let kings be kings and let warriors be warriors. Let outcasts be outcasts. A truly equal society is not only impossible but also undesirable because egalitarianism and the elimination of value judgements and has lead us to a meaningless world in which people feel no belonging or security.

The pretense of absolute equality causes more problems than some material inequality does, if you ask me.




Those are precisely my sentiments.  Thank you for making them clearer. :thumbup:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Class in America [Re: viktor]
    #23699569 - 10/02/16 09:11 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Think it through further - how does the Commander know that it's the President on the other end of the radio?




The Gold Codes.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Class in America [Re: tHEfLY]
    #23700023 - 10/02/16 12:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tHEfLY said:
All people are equal before God, but you're right that socially the situation is more nuanced than that. My opinion is that attacking the class structure of a society is like attacking the foundations of a house - you can create some perfectly equal rubble but you wont be able to live in it. Every part is necessary but they can't all be the same.

I see value in class structure and hierarchy. Successful cultures have always been maintained by the aristocracy but today everything is aimed at the lowest common denominator and we can see the western world has degenerated, from St Peters Basillica to Piss Christ and Hollywood. The same is true with our morals and politics and spirituality as well. I blame capitalists and marxists equally because both seek to undermine the naturally occuring hierarchy for profit and power, respectively.

Why not let people be what they are? It's natural for people to form groups and do their own thing, this is how individuation occurs on a social level. Let kings be kings and let warriors be warriors. Let outcasts be outcasts. A truly equal society is not only impossible but also undesirable because egalitarianism and the elimination of value judgements and has lead us to a meaningless world in which people feel no belonging or security.

The pretense of absolute equality causes more problems than some material inequality does, if you ask me.




I agree with much of this.  I think the point ITT is that given these realities, perhaps the "lower" classes would do a better job of pursuing their own interests if they didn't so easily conflate their interests with those of the "upper" classes.  It seems to me that a person is much less likely to seek redress against a class that he/she mistakenly believes him/herself to be a part of.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Class in America [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23700123 - 10/02/16 12:50 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

tHEfLY said:
All people are equal before God, but you're right that socially the situation is more nuanced than that. My opinion is that attacking the class structure of a society is like attacking the foundations of a house - you can create some perfectly equal rubble but you wont be able to live in it. Every part is necessary but they can't all be the same.

I see value in class structure and hierarchy. Successful cultures have always been maintained by the aristocracy but today everything is aimed at the lowest common denominator and we can see the western world has degenerated, from St Peters Basillica to Piss Christ and Hollywood. The same is true with our morals and politics and spirituality as well. I blame capitalists and marxists equally because both seek to undermine the naturally occuring hierarchy for profit and power, respectively.

Why not let people be what they are? It's natural for people to form groups and do their own thing, this is how individuation occurs on a social level. Let kings be kings and let warriors be warriors. Let outcasts be outcasts. A truly equal society is not only impossible but also undesirable because egalitarianism and the elimination of value judgements and has lead us to a meaningless world in which people feel no belonging or security.

The pretense of absolute equality causes more problems than some material inequality does, if you ask me.




Those are precisely my sentiments.  Thank you for making them clearer. :thumbup:




I think there are no political and economic solutions.
Humans never evolved to live in large groups, like ants, flocks of birds, schools of fish, herds of cairibou or zebra or buffalo. Neither are we solitary animals like rino and leopards and tigers.
We only function properly in something more like a chimpanze group or baboon troup. Modern cities are totally toxic and much of the structure of civilization is an attempt to compensate for the ills this produces such as crime.
I did not figure this out. It is common knowledge. But ignored because: 1 it doesn't serve the power structure, -2- we like our civilized pleasures, and -3- a lie often repeated is perceived as truth.
So where are these facts to be found? Look at rat studies of overcrowding and the parallels to the woes of human cities and civilizations. And in the works of Robin Dunbar. Also Marvin Harris.
Maybe Jarred Diamond too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

political & economic 'solutions' = mostly smoke and mirrors

the rats don't need a better president, or different colored nest boxes, or nesting boxes that are all the same, within the main cage -- they need a bigger main cage - or no cage -- or radical birth control

Amusingly, metaphorically, the Bible has it right: with agriculture the garden of Eden is left behind, in short order. "Shall earn his living by the sweat of his brow" etc. toil, time clocks, nastiness...


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Re: Class in America [Re: laughingdog]
    #23700153 - 10/02/16 12:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

perhaps man has merely to be domesticated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Domesticated_Red_Fox


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Re: Class in America [Re: laughingdog]
    #23700173 - 10/02/16 01:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
I think there are no political and economic solutions.
Humans never evolved to live in large groups, like ants, flocks of birds, schools of fish, herds of cairibou or zebra or buffalo. Neither are we solitary animals like rino and leopards and tigers.
We only function properly in something more like a chimpanze group or baboon troup. Modern cities are totally toxic and much of the structure of civilization is an attempt to compensate for the ills this produces such as crime.
I did not figure this out. It is common knowledge. But ignored because: 1 it doesn't serve the power structure, -2- we like our civilized pleasures, and -3- a lie often repeated is perceived as truth.
So where are these facts to be found? Look at rat studies of overcrowding and the parallels to the woes of human cities and civilizations. And in the works of Robin Dunbar. Also Marvin Harris.
Maybe Jarred Diamond too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

political & economic 'solutions' = mostly smoke and mirrors

the rats don't need a better president, or different colored nest boxes, or nesting boxes that are all the same, within the main cage -- they need a bigger main cage - or no cage -- or radical birth control

Amusingly, metaphorically, the Bible has it right: with agriculture the garden of Eden is left behind, in short order. "Shall earn his living by the sweat of his brow" etc. toil, time clocks, nastiness...





I could not agree more with your post.  All I am arguing is that it would be better in general if people were more explicitly aware of their standing.  I'm not arguing for anything political; it's purely hypothetical.  But you have to admit, even under the stultifying banner of civilization, there is better and there is worse.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Class in America [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23700176 - 10/02/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

for what it's worth the caste system worked for thousands of years in India.
now it's pretty screwed up but I think it is exacerbated by "modern" extremists.

you rise within your caste and never consider moving to another one.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Class in America [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23700223 - 10/02/16 01:18 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

:lolwut:

worked for who?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Class in America [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23700295 - 10/02/16 01:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

it kept things running smoothly
everyone knew their place
they aspired to rise in importance within their caste, and lived their lives without envy.

or so I have been told.
it was a complex social engineering, designed for stability.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Class in America [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23700353 - 10/02/16 01:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

American slavery kept things running smoothly.

Roman Imperialism kept things running smoothly.

Medieval feudalism kept things running smoothly.

so what?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Class in America [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23701158 - 10/02/16 06:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

American Roman and Medieval slavery did not last as long as Indian the Caste System.
they were not stabilizing, they were just awful cruel racist domination's - really terrible systems.
the Indian Caste system, however, had a lot more complexity, it was not about owning people.

Even though it has been formally abolished, many aspects of it still pervade the culture.


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