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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: America is engaged in the pursuit of masking class distinctions. Class is of course present, but we pretend it isn't. We are as hierarchical as any civilized society -- and perhaps much more so -- but we pretend we are all "equal." An absurdity, to be sure.
I am very much of the opinion that all persons are equal before God, and should have an equal right to life. In that sense, I think the American attitude is appropriate. But then to extend this to all facets is, I think, a mistake and a subversion of the truth.
Do you see validity in this? Is the American populace deluded, or complacent? Would we be served better if we more openly thought about class?
Very insightful and thoughtful post. the short answers to the questions posed are Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: Class in America [Re: ballsalsa]
#23698816 - 10/01/16 11:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: America is engaged in the pursuit of masking class distinctions. Class is of course present, but we pretend it isn't. We are as hierarchical as any civilized society -- and perhaps much more so -- but we pretend we are all "equal." An absurdity, to be sure.
I am very much of the opinion that all persons are equal before God, and should have an equal right to life. In that sense, I think the American attitude is appropriate. But then to extend this to all facets is, I think, a mistake and a subversion of the truth.
Do you see validity in this? Is the American populace deluded, or complacent? Would we be served better if we more openly thought about class?
Very insightful and thoughtful post. the short answers to the questions posed are Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes.
karl marx analysis and communism are based on the idea of legislating economic equality & classe equality - it didnt work
we are aware of class and love it movie actors, rock stars, football heros et etc all undeservedly lucky and the public and loves it and supports making them even wealthier
you all seem to have an idealistic view
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tHEfLY
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Registered: 04/16/16
Posts: 427
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All people are equal before God, but you're right that socially the situation is more nuanced than that. My opinion is that attacking the class structure of a society is like attacking the foundations of a house - you can create some perfectly equal rubble but you wont be able to live in it. Every part is necessary but they can't all be the same.
I see value in class structure and hierarchy. Successful cultures have always been maintained by the aristocracy but today everything is aimed at the lowest common denominator and we can see the western world has degenerated, from St Peters Basillica to Piss Christ and Hollywood. The same is true with our morals and politics and spirituality as well. I blame capitalists and marxists equally because both seek to undermine the naturally occuring hierarchy for profit and power, respectively.
Why not let people be what they are? It's natural for people to form groups and do their own thing, this is how individuation occurs on a social level. Let kings be kings and let warriors be warriors. Let outcasts be outcasts. A truly equal society is not only impossible but also undesirable because egalitarianism and the elimination of value judgements and has lead us to a meaningless world in which people feel no belonging or security.
The pretense of absolute equality causes more problems than some material inequality does, if you ask me.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Class in America [Re: tHEfLY]
#23699557 - 10/02/16 09:08 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
tHEfLY said: All people are equal before God, but you're right that socially the situation is more nuanced than that. My opinion is that attacking the class structure of a society is like attacking the foundations of a house - you can create some perfectly equal rubble but you wont be able to live in it. Every part is necessary but they can't all be the same.
I see value in class structure and hierarchy. Successful cultures have always been maintained by the aristocracy but today everything is aimed at the lowest common denominator and we can see the western world has degenerated, from St Peters Basillica to Piss Christ and Hollywood. The same is true with our morals and politics and spirituality as well. I blame capitalists and marxists equally because both seek to undermine the naturally occuring hierarchy for profit and power, respectively.
Why not let people be what they are? It's natural for people to form groups and do their own thing, this is how individuation occurs on a social level. Let kings be kings and let warriors be warriors. Let outcasts be outcasts. A truly equal society is not only impossible but also undesirable because egalitarianism and the elimination of value judgements and has lead us to a meaningless world in which people feel no belonging or security.
The pretense of absolute equality causes more problems than some material inequality does, if you ask me.
Those are precisely my sentiments. Thank you for making them clearer.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Class in America [Re: viktor]
#23699569 - 10/02/16 09:11 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: Think it through further - how does the Commander know that it's the President on the other end of the radio?
The Gold Codes.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Class in America [Re: tHEfLY]
#23700023 - 10/02/16 12:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
tHEfLY said: All people are equal before God, but you're right that socially the situation is more nuanced than that. My opinion is that attacking the class structure of a society is like attacking the foundations of a house - you can create some perfectly equal rubble but you wont be able to live in it. Every part is necessary but they can't all be the same.
I see value in class structure and hierarchy. Successful cultures have always been maintained by the aristocracy but today everything is aimed at the lowest common denominator and we can see the western world has degenerated, from St Peters Basillica to Piss Christ and Hollywood. The same is true with our morals and politics and spirituality as well. I blame capitalists and marxists equally because both seek to undermine the naturally occuring hierarchy for profit and power, respectively.
Why not let people be what they are? It's natural for people to form groups and do their own thing, this is how individuation occurs on a social level. Let kings be kings and let warriors be warriors. Let outcasts be outcasts. A truly equal society is not only impossible but also undesirable because egalitarianism and the elimination of value judgements and has lead us to a meaningless world in which people feel no belonging or security.
The pretense of absolute equality causes more problems than some material inequality does, if you ask me.
I agree with much of this. I think the point ITT is that given these realities, perhaps the "lower" classes would do a better job of pursuing their own interests if they didn't so easily conflate their interests with those of the "upper" classes. It seems to me that a person is much less likely to seek redress against a class that he/she mistakenly believes him/herself to be a part of.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
tHEfLY said: All people are equal before God, but you're right that socially the situation is more nuanced than that. My opinion is that attacking the class structure of a society is like attacking the foundations of a house - you can create some perfectly equal rubble but you wont be able to live in it. Every part is necessary but they can't all be the same.
I see value in class structure and hierarchy. Successful cultures have always been maintained by the aristocracy but today everything is aimed at the lowest common denominator and we can see the western world has degenerated, from St Peters Basillica to Piss Christ and Hollywood. The same is true with our morals and politics and spirituality as well. I blame capitalists and marxists equally because both seek to undermine the naturally occuring hierarchy for profit and power, respectively.
Why not let people be what they are? It's natural for people to form groups and do their own thing, this is how individuation occurs on a social level. Let kings be kings and let warriors be warriors. Let outcasts be outcasts. A truly equal society is not only impossible but also undesirable because egalitarianism and the elimination of value judgements and has lead us to a meaningless world in which people feel no belonging or security.
The pretense of absolute equality causes more problems than some material inequality does, if you ask me.
Those are precisely my sentiments. Thank you for making them clearer. 
I think there are no political and economic solutions. Humans never evolved to live in large groups, like ants, flocks of birds, schools of fish, herds of cairibou or zebra or buffalo. Neither are we solitary animals like rino and leopards and tigers. We only function properly in something more like a chimpanze group or baboon troup. Modern cities are totally toxic and much of the structure of civilization is an attempt to compensate for the ills this produces such as crime. I did not figure this out. It is common knowledge. But ignored because: 1 it doesn't serve the power structure, -2- we like our civilized pleasures, and -3- a lie often repeated is perceived as truth. So where are these facts to be found? Look at rat studies of overcrowding and the parallels to the woes of human cities and civilizations. And in the works of Robin Dunbar. Also Marvin Harris. Maybe Jarred Diamond too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
political & economic 'solutions' = mostly smoke and mirrors
the rats don't need a better president, or different colored nest boxes, or nesting boxes that are all the same, within the main cage -- they need a bigger main cage - or no cage -- or radical birth control
Amusingly, metaphorically, the Bible has it right: with agriculture the garden of Eden is left behind, in short order. "Shall earn his living by the sweat of his brow" etc. toil, time clocks, nastiness...
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Loc: Foreign Lands
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Quote:
laughingdog said: I think there are no political and economic solutions. Humans never evolved to live in large groups, like ants, flocks of birds, schools of fish, herds of cairibou or zebra or buffalo. Neither are we solitary animals like rino and leopards and tigers. We only function properly in something more like a chimpanze group or baboon troup. Modern cities are totally toxic and much of the structure of civilization is an attempt to compensate for the ills this produces such as crime. I did not figure this out. It is common knowledge. But ignored because: 1 it doesn't serve the power structure, -2- we like our civilized pleasures, and -3- a lie often repeated is perceived as truth. So where are these facts to be found? Look at rat studies of overcrowding and the parallels to the woes of human cities and civilizations. And in the works of Robin Dunbar. Also Marvin Harris. Maybe Jarred Diamond too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
political & economic 'solutions' = mostly smoke and mirrors
the rats don't need a better president, or different colored nest boxes, or nesting boxes that are all the same, within the main cage -- they need a bigger main cage - or no cage -- or radical birth control
Amusingly, metaphorically, the Bible has it right: with agriculture the garden of Eden is left behind, in short order. "Shall earn his living by the sweat of his brow" etc. toil, time clocks, nastiness...
I could not agree more with your post. All I am arguing is that it would be better in general if people were more explicitly aware of their standing. I'm not arguing for anything political; it's purely hypothetical. But you have to admit, even under the stultifying banner of civilization, there is better and there is worse.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Class in America [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23700176 - 10/02/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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for what it's worth the caste system worked for thousands of years in India. now it's pretty screwed up but I think it is exacerbated by "modern" extremists.
you rise within your caste and never consider moving to another one.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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worked for who?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Class in America [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23700295 - 10/02/16 01:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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it kept things running smoothly everyone knew their place they aspired to rise in importance within their caste, and lived their lives without envy.
or so I have been told. it was a complex social engineering, designed for stability.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
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Loc: Foreign Lands
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American slavery kept things running smoothly.
Roman Imperialism kept things running smoothly.
Medieval feudalism kept things running smoothly.
so what?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Class in America [Re: ballsalsa]
#23701158 - 10/02/16 06:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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American Roman and Medieval slavery did not last as long as Indian the Caste System. they were not stabilizing, they were just awful cruel racist domination's - really terrible systems. the Indian Caste system, however, had a lot more complexity, it was not about owning people.
Even though it has been formally abolished, many aspects of it still pervade the culture.
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