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Mateo
High on LIFE!



Registered: 06/24/11
Posts: 2,689
Loc: North Europe
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: Mateo] 2
#24945813 - 01/27/18 10:44 AM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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My Mitragyna seeds have germinated. It took about a week. Both the Riafats and The Green Malay seeds now have very very small seedlings.
 This is how i have them, except the transparent tops are put on. I have a 200W blue spectrum CFL bulb above them.
 This is worrying me though, its getting very hot, 34 dregrees C. I might have to do something.
   The Riafats are coming upp in great numbers, almost 100 mini sprouts.
 The Green Malays dont come up in same numbers but i have more pots with them. I counted at least 50+ small sprouts. And i have another batch that haven´t germinated yet. 
 A Catnip that were allowed to share the greenhouse.
I hope to see more people with sprouting Mitragyna seeds. They seem not hard to grow from seed at all. I guess the hard part is finding good seeds.
-------------------- A wise rat has many holes
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: Micaele]
#24945820 - 01/27/18 10:46 AM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Micaele said: Batch one of the Green Malay sown 15/1 I've counted 42 of these

Batch two of the Green Malay sown 16/1 More than 25 of these sprouted last night. I've counted them to 32

Which brings me to a total of 74 Green Malays

The three months old Rifats
 Getting quite big now!
Have ypi thought of transplanting them into those single cell trays? Once they take off they really take off,
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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Mateo
High on LIFE!



Registered: 06/24/11
Posts: 2,689
Loc: North Europe
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: ferrel_human]
#24945879 - 01/27/18 11:13 AM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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Yes, they must be carefully transplanted to own trays. I wonder when the best time is to do this. Maybe when they are a little bigger. Can´t wait too long though, the roots might entangle with eachother. I really hope they aren´t as sensitive as poppys. If they are, we got a major problem.
-------------------- A wise rat has many holes
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Micaele
Cannabis connoisseur


Registered: 08/19/16
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: ferrel_human]
#24946048 - 01/27/18 12:37 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
ferrel_human said:
Quote:
Micaele said:
Have ypi thought of transplanting them into those single cell trays? Once they take off they really take off,
I have no idea how I would go on about replanting them into seperate pots. I assume they're extremely fragile. Plenty of them are starting to grow their second set of leaves now. Largest one probably has slightly less than 1mm leaves on the second set.
Quote:
Mateo said: bunch of things with pretty pictures
Great news! They just started coming up, so 50 is probably still on the low side of how many is going to sprout. Do you know what pH your soil is at?
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Mateo
High on LIFE!



Registered: 06/24/11
Posts: 2,689
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: Micaele]
#24946126 - 01/27/18 01:16 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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50 is a little low if i compare with the Riafat´s. It is still very OK but im little supprised it isn´t the other way around. One would think the GM´s are fresher.
I just measured the soil with a soil PH meter and it showed about 6.7. I also put a PH strip in there as it is wet, and the color indicated 6. I would belive neither of those are accurate but it is probably between 6 and 7, closer to 7 i belive as the tap water is somewhere in this area.
I also have a second batch that haven´t germinated yet so it will be plenty of GM seedlings.
Regarding transplanting them to their own pots. When Mitragynas are little bigger, it´s no problems repotting. This is when they are say 10cm or so. This leads me to belive one can carefully transplant the seedlings when they are little bit bigger. The problems come with those very close to eachother as the roots may grow entangeled and will be damaged when separated. Let´s hope they are tough and full of will to live, then they will do alright. We could try transplanting some as a test but i rather wait a little bit more.
-------------------- A wise rat has many holes
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naum



Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 4,069
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: karode13]
#24946163 - 01/27/18 01:40 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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karode13 said: Question to anyone with experience. How well does actively growing kratom root if just placed in water. No bubblers, water will be changed periodically.
Don't even really need to change water if the plant is actively growing in the summer. A little support medium helps root growth IME.
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karode13
Tāne Mahuta




Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,290
Loc: LV-426
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: naum]
#24946282 - 01/27/18 02:45 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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Thanks naum. By support medium do you mean something like sphagnum moss or? I plan to do them tomorrow. We got a 38C day today. 
For those wondering how to transplant seedlings, give this a read>>>https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18277465
Same rules in that thread can be applied. Wait for the first true leaves, only handle the plant by the leaves. Be careful when digging out the plants. I doubt these are anything like poppies and should transplant fine. Nice to see some seedlings.
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: karode13]
#24946315 - 01/27/18 03:03 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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Kratom seedlings transplant fine and like karode said grab by the leaves. I usually dig the soil a bit around the stem. Then with a bamboo skewer dig it out. Tweezers by the leaves is fine but dont yank them out. You should be fine you all seed growers.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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MeanGreen
Kratom Eater


Registered: 02/04/17
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: ferrel_human]
#24946364 - 01/27/18 03:30 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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I have transplanted some tiny kratom seedlings before, at about 3 weeks old I'd say. What I did was take a spoon to lift a few from the bottom and then carefully separate them by hand.
There'll be a few casualties for sure, but it's best to separate them. Like ferrel said, once they take off they take off and the fastest growing ones will shade and smother the smaller ones.
This time I'm gonna sow max 3 or 4 seeds per pot with the Green Malay.
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TheUpsideDown
Stranger Thing


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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: MeanGreen] 1
#24946377 - 01/27/18 03:34 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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I have a friend that separates small seedlings with chopsticks. I'm a fork kinda guy so that excludes me, but he's able to do delicate work with them.
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karode13
Tāne Mahuta




Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,290
Loc: LV-426
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: TheUpsideDown]
#24946380 - 01/27/18 03:37 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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I'm proficient in the art of chopstick horticulture. Handling seedlings to large Trichocereus cactus works quite well. Anything larger and I bust out the Tongs.
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TheUpsideDown
Stranger Thing


Registered: 11/07/17
Posts: 389
Loc: Georgia
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: karode13]
#24946385 - 01/27/18 03:39 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
karode13 said: I'm proficient in the art of chopstick horticulture. Handling seedlings to large Trichocereus cactus works quite well. Anything larger and I bust out the Tongs. 
See, I've just never learned the art of chopsticks. If I can't get noodles to my mouth with chopsticks, how can i trust myself to delicately pluck a tiny seedling from its home and replace it?
Now I can fork the hell out of some dirt. It aint pretty. It don't get the job done.
But I can do it.
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karode13
Tāne Mahuta




Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,290
Loc: LV-426
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: TheUpsideDown]
#24946397 - 01/27/18 03:47 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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I use a fork for weeding my pots if that any consolation. A fork combined with my non-patented Weeding Hook™ seems to limit the bloodshed when weeding cactus.
My best friend when I grew up was Chinese and I spent a lot of time at his house. You learn to use chopsticks pretty quickly when people hide the forks from you. He had older brothers.
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naum



Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 4,069
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: karode13]
#24946401 - 01/27/18 03:49 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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Perlite, pumice, or baked clay in water seem to give me roots faster and more reliably than water alone. Kada taught me about this method. It works pretty well.
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ferrel_human
stone eater



Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,318
Loc: Texas
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: TheUpsideDown]
#24946431 - 01/27/18 04:03 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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These are my deciduous rifat and bumble bee.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
 Looking for Mimosa tenuiflora seeds. Buttons for trade
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TheUpsideDown
Stranger Thing


Registered: 11/07/17
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: ferrel_human]
#24946436 - 01/27/18 04:08 PM (6 years, 2 days ago) |
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I wish I had space in the greenhouse or warmer climates outside to grow mitragyna. Y'all make me jealous.
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MeanGreen
Kratom Eater


Registered: 02/04/17
Posts: 1,577
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 4 months, 14 days
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: TheUpsideDown]
#24946806 - 01/27/18 07:09 PM (6 years, 1 day ago) |
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I was able to chat with a pioneer of western Kratom cultivation and commercialization. Darklight, the creator (along with Torsten) of the Rifat clone and the first person known to have successfully done kratom micro-propagation.
Here is the story of how the clone that basically started it all came into existence, from the man himself, thought you guys might be interested:
Quote:
Torsten contracted me to undertake micropropagation of this species back last millennia. It was a crapshoot, as the species hadn't been done in tissue culture ( that I could find ) at that stage and seed numbers were limited. I had two clients with seeds, T was the one who sorted the germination riddle, which is why it was his seed which produced the Rifat clone in-vitro.
We got it! It's quite the saga. We were going to do a presentation on the process at EGA but decided to do the NMT presentation instead.
Had to abandon the species entirely after the TGA scheduling came into effect in 2005. At the time we weren't aware of the intricacies of TGA scheduling and believed they wouldn't be so stupid as to S9 schedule- no known medical use- an entire plant with such medical and clinical potential ( it was the height of the heroin epidemic in Australia ) as a 'potential future drug of abuse'. They were. We learned a lot from that, it was horrible, stupid, ignorant and cruel.
Many long stories, much happiness, learning, letdowns and lots of generousity on the part of T. Much snipped from here.
One example of one very small part: Torsten and I were discussing retail price for this species once we had an established protocol. As it was highly sought after I suggested a general release, with first adopters and collectors paying a higher price for limited release, and subsequent releases of increasing numbers of plants each year at lower cost. We knew there were a few collectors who would pay good money, and I was impatient to capitalise on our significant investment ( his funds, my time and experience )
I figured the plant would leak out sideways after a few years anyhow, retail price would drop and any delay to the general public would be limited
He nixed it straight out. His take was that it is an important potential anti-addiction plant and should be available to try by as many people as possible as soon as possible. This attitude of his is why I adore working with him 
As it was, a bunch of potential clients offering megabucks for clonal material had expressed real interest. And as soon as they realised it was in tissue culture they demanded we supply it to them at $0.30c a plant. Many demanded the micropropagation media alongside it.
That price was set in 1976 and is for mass run easily produced plants with no research input. And only a fool gives their IP away so cheaply. When we refused sale at that price and made a counter offer all the clients vanished.
So we did a general public release instead.
Over time the performance in micropropagation dwindled ( happens in many species ) and the TGA scheduling coincided with the decline. We dropped it. We were too well known for producing the plant and the risk of continuing wasn't worth it. I had a feeling the authorities would have considered us tasty headline clickbait if we had continued and it would have endangered other conservation and medicinal work.
We also had to abandon significant plans to undertake more phytochemical research, including food safety and storage
It may have been possible to apply for federal compensation for future losses against the value of our investment. It was a fair sized figure by then. T also nixed that on the grounds that supplying information about our investment could leave us open to a requirement to divulge personal details of all purchasers of the clone in Australia. That wasn't acceptable to either of us
So we took it on the chin, and we're still recovering. At least it's now available for consumption in many other countries and has a track record as an effective taper/ substitution/ remedy for opiate abuse for many people. That was our initial aim and even though we couldn't get it to happen here there will be data out there at some point which will hopefully one day support a re-scheduling in .au
There are many stories left out of this post for brevity. Hope it gives you an idea of it 
My firstborn. Or one of 'em. So excited I was

Full production
 The decline and fall

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This plant plays an important part in my life so it's important for me to share it.
Really kind of you. I loved working with the species too, I'm glad it's still bringing people joy and comfort
Quote:
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Thank you so much for this awesome story Darklight, you guys really did an amazing job and I will forever be grateful as I'm sure you played a big part in popularising this miracle plant.
Especially when you consider that big "false kratom" debacle back in the early 2000's where my compatriots Bruno & friends at ebotashop flooded the market with false kratom (M. parvifolia I believe). This could have caused everyone to just brush off kratom as ineffective and killed the market in the egg...
There were vendor pages online back then which incorrectly ( and possibly knowingly ) pushed the psychedelic properties of M. speciosa and those most definitely contributed to the TGA scheduling. Mitragyna speciosa is not psychedelic, had never been touted as psychedelic prior to the existence of those few web pages, and the incorrect publicity was not scientifically evaluated, but was used directly as evidence nonetheless during the TGA scheduling
By the time Jon Hanna's expose on false kratom came out it was too late to do anything
Flawed data met lack of oversight and flawed process and produced poor outcomes
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I think it's extremely unfortunate that Australia decided to ban it, especially during an opiate epidemic. How can you consider an opioid which doesn't cause lethal respiratory depression as not having any medicinal potential is beyond me...
It also has potential as an anti-inflammatory, anti-tumour etc. It was a cruel and irrational scheduling, and because of the bureaucratic specifics of the scheduling process back then we were not permitted to respond or object to the scheduling. I believe that's changed for all new introductions, T would know better than I, but it's not retrospective.
If we'd not been hamstrung by the scheduling we were on track to do so much more good research
In practical terms a helluva lot of good science gets proven wrong over time ( which is entirely the point ) and so many claims made back then could have been fortified by extra research or dropped as spurious
Our facility, our towns and region really lost out on this. Research programs and commercial opportunities all happened off shore. Quite a few overseas companies have done seriously well out of it and should continue to do so for some time. Good on 'em. We were uniquely placed to do all that here, in a region of high biodiversity, appropriate climate, high unemployment and fair access to some first rate research facilities. But hey, no.
I still want that small, private research lab where we can rigorously train citizen scientists in the love and practice of quality empirical data generation and never be de-funded by any bastard government again. I want it so bad I can taste it. So much talent going to waste.
Quote:
Could you share a bit about what the selection process was for the Rifat clone? Was it simply the most vigorous sprout of the batch of seeds?
Erk. It was the only one which survived. We bit our nails for a year or so until it was proven both stable in micropropagation and active. Long story snipped
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If you do a talk about this at EGA I might just have to fly my ass over there haha 
Seriously, you should come to an EGA anyhow. They're deadset brilliant. Best crew ever. And if we are accepted for an EGA presentation on this and T agrees to co-present with me again I may hold you to that statement 
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karode13
Tāne Mahuta




Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,290
Loc: LV-426
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: MeanGreen]
#24946878 - 01/27/18 07:45 PM (6 years, 1 day ago) |
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Sweet post! You're missing out if you haven't seen T and Darklight talk. Come to the next EGA. I just did my first public talk at the recent one. Was a lot of fun.
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MeanGreen
Kratom Eater


Registered: 02/04/17
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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: karode13]
#24947824 - 01/28/18 09:35 AM (6 years, 1 day ago) |
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Thank you karode and congratulations on your presentation! What was the subject?
I hope the videos of the talks come out on youtube, I really enjoyed the previous ones. Trout's presentation on lophophora environment was amazing for example.
I definitely will come down to an EGA one day. Really seems like an amazing gathering! Just a matter of timing, and funds considering Oz is basically on the other side of the globe for me and the tickets aren't cheap even though I'm certain they're worth every penny.
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LizardWizard
GnomeGrower




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Re: The Official Kratom Growers Thread. [Re: MeanGreen]
#24948443 - 01/28/18 12:39 PM (6 years, 1 day ago) |
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-------------------- The best things in life can be smelled on one's fingers.
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