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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#23691051 - 09/29/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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MarkostheGnostic said: All subjective states of mind have biochemical correlates. However, correlation does not mean causation! There has not been any specific chemical discovered that is cause for clinical depression. At best, medicine has found correlations with less than optimal presence of the neurotransmitter Serotonin, so SSRI (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor) medicines keep Serotonin 'floating' in the synaptic space between neurons so that the Serotonin doesn't bind with the neurons but continues to conduct impulses to bring up our mood. Internal conditions that contribute to depression are called endogenous. Environmental-social conditions for depression are referred to as situational depression.
chemistry is a blunt instrument but so is language. I do not know what you mean when you say "all subjective states of mind" in the sentence "All subjective states of mind have biochemical correlates". if you do mean @@ All States Of Mind @@ as in waking, rational, dreaming, meditative, stoned, and emotional (not in any particular order) then I strongly disagree with you.
some states of mind may have some chemical foot print, especially emotional ones, but most of those states of mind are not chemically dependent (even though drugs do work and produced stoned states of mind which resemble dreaming, being in love, in meditative absorption etc.)
Attempting to treat the state of mind with incidental chemistry (at influential and mind numbing dosages) is very approximate, and gross with regard to the cause and symptoms. They grossly affect everything, and reduce symptoms by reducing large areas of function.
Usually when we sedate or disable people with mental strife, we actually provide relief for the families and nothing too significant to the afflicted. Which is not to deny that getting the family a bit more chill also directly helps heal the root cause of family induced and triggered complexes.
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demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
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Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] 1
#23691792 - 09/29/16 07:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Jokeshopbeard said: Humans seem to like to think 'we've got it all worked out' for some reason, rather than to admit 'we know nothing'.
yes
ime, humans also tend to think there is only one mould from which all humans are cast. this one mould is the only one, true accurate form in which a human should appear; internally and externally. when the reality is that every single human is different biologically/genetically. while 'standards' have been drawn from millions of specimens, speculation on a specific issue may be clouded as physicians disregard often pertinent information because it does not fall in-line with the 'standards' (root or expression)
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: Bigfeely123]
#23692798 - 09/30/16 12:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Some believe depression is highly complex in nature. Others don't.
Many people are very resistant to investigating how their thinking habits create their disturbing emotions.
All disturbing emotions (anger, rage, depression, anxiety) are rooting in thinking.
Are you willing to look at your inner environment, to find the source of your suffering?
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zzripz
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23692958 - 09/30/16 04:26 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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that explanation reminds me of the new age mantra to always be 'positive thinking' and god help you if you dare to criticize a cult, a movement, any authoritarian set up, including the big society oppressing us---for that mindset it means YOUR thinking is 'too negative' and you need to meditate bla bla so in other words, thinking itself becomes a scapegoat!
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howsyournaggerdoin
Happy


Registered: 02/04/16
Posts: 1,600
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: zzripz]
#23692971 - 09/30/16 04:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Depression is definitely caused by chemical imbalances. Theres nothing else in our brain but chemicals and electricity so it only makes sense.
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Bigfeely123
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23693408 - 09/30/16 08:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Inner environment, my mind you mean by that?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: zzripz]
#23693438 - 09/30/16 08:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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zzripz said: that explanation reminds me of the new age mantra to always be 'positive thinking' and god help you if you dare to criticize a cult, a movement, any authoritarian set up, including the big society oppressing us---for that mindset it means YOUR thinking is 'too negative' and you need to meditate bla bla so in other words, thinking itself becomes a scapegoat!
Mental contents are not other than that. Compare a lovely space with a messy apartment.
accordingly we say that set and setting are major factors (along with dosage which is chemical) in the quality of your trip.
No new age mantra at all. I can't judge what's in your head but you can, and if you don't like it, then renovate, and if you don't know how, learn, because you CANNOT SUBCONTRACT THIS JOB
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zzripz
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
#23693442 - 09/30/16 08:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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howsyournaggerdoin said: Depression is definitely caused by chemical imbalances. Theres nothing else in our brain but chemicals and electricity so it only makes sense.
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Murzelpfrumpft
pet donkey in a lucid dream

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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: zzripz]
#23693831 - 09/30/16 11:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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So, whats to be balanced out, then? What is the "weight" and "counterweight" of this oh-so-often cited balance?
Of course feelings are biochemistry, thoughts are, too, but there is nothing in equilibrium, as the expression balance suggests.
As Markthegnostic said, correlation is confused with causation, here. It was witnessed that certain chemical compounds administered to humans would heighten certain neurotransmitter concentrations and at the same time alleviate some aspects of depression in some people.
Thus, the theory was born that yer brain is outta balance because patients got outta bed when you stuffed some drugs into them. Strangely, there is a dozen of neurotransmitters that are said to be the cause of depression because there are meds that manipulate them and work a little for some time.
So they just say, well, everyone's different and everybody has a different lack of neurotransmitter.
This way they get you to try all of their shit and at some point you will inevitably feel better because depression was not a chronic disease to begin with and you will attribute this to the pill you tried at that point. When physically dependant, you try to stop it and they say: see, you relapse, that's the proof you had a chemical imbalance and the med worked. But shit, you were just dependant upon a pharmaceutical that does God knows what plus tweak your depression a little, maybe!
So good and honest scientists tried to find out if prozac really have the patients the serotonin they lacked and found out that serotonin levels vary greatly among healthy people and don't have shit to do with how happy they are.
But prozac is the prime example of a product heavily marketed by psychological tricks and one of the nicest examples how the studies needed for FDA approval are tweaked by the manufacturer. Ever heard of placebo wash out? Usually the manufacturer compares his drug with a placebo to prove it works. So they would preselect all people about to participate in the prozac trials for reaction to placebo, a.k.a. known as the antidepressants greatest enemy. They would throw out people reacting well to placebo effects and keep those few who have good reactions to prozac. And the joke is, this plus other minor tweaks BARELY made prozac outperform placebo.
Of course they had to hide the cases of suicide SSRIs cause, but that's another story.
The problem is that the people who benefit from the sale of those pharmaceuticals are the ones who do the science on it.
It's just an elaborated scam.
Think twice before proclaiming sth about chemical imbalances. You are feeding the monster.
Edited by Murzelpfrumpft (09/30/16 11:52 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: Murzelpfrumpft]
#23693972 - 09/30/16 12:45 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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good info in that rant
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: 404] 1
#23697588 - 10/01/16 03:45 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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404 said: I'm afraid that depression is much more complex than 'serotonin floating in the synaptic space between neurons', other neurotransmitters and receptor types may be involved, along with the immune system and certain types of genes. One that was recently identified as being an additional culprit in 5 major psychiatric disorders including depression was a gene called CACNB2 and regulates the flow of calcium in the neurons, regulating the action potentials in respective types of neurons
I was being simplistic, but I will research the CACNB2 to familiarize myself with the research, thanks. I probably have too much, or misplaced Calcium in my body (like calcification of my aorta ), but I recently alleviated years of chronic back pain with the addition of a Magnesium supplement. I felt palpable relief after the first dose within 12 hours. There seems to be a generally calming effect which is no doubt why the popular Magnesium citrate product is called CALM. Reminds me of John Cade's serendipitous discovery of the calming influence of Lithium salts in guinea pigs that resulted in the administration of Lithium carbonate for treatment of Bi-Polar Disorder. I wonder what other types of ions are yet to be identified as a prophylactic or treatment of mental disorders.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: Murzelpfrumpft]
#23697704 - 10/01/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Murzelpfrumpft said: ...So good and honest scientists tried to find out if prozac really have the patients the serotonin they lacked and found out that serotonin levels vary greatly among healthy people and don't have shit to do with how happy they are.
But prozac is the prime example of a product heavily marketed by psychological tricks and one of the nicest examples how the studies needed for FDA approval are tweaked by the manufacturer. Ever heard of placebo wash out? Usually the manufacturer compares his drug with a placebo to prove it works. So they would preselect all people about to participate in the prozac trials for reaction to placebo, a.k.a. known as the antidepressants greatest enemy. They would throw out people reacting well to placebo effects and keep those few who have good reactions to prozac. And the joke is, this plus other minor tweaks BARELY made prozac outperform placebo.
Of course they had to hide the cases of suicide SSRIs cause, but that's another story...
very interesting - do have any links or sources, where we might learn more about this?
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Murzelpfrumpft
pet donkey in a lucid dream

Registered: 08/09/12
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: laughingdog]
#23697775 - 10/01/16 05:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, it would probably be best if you would check out Robert whitaker's book Anatomy of an Epidemic.
Take it with caution, as he focuses in the cases in which medication did nothing good.
It basically explains how modern psychopharmacology plays a major role in the "epidemic" of mental disorders we experience in the last decades.
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: Murzelpfrumpft]
#23697854 - 10/01/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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thanks am checking out amazon
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yeah



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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: Bigfeely123]
#23698192 - 10/01/16 07:32 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes. There is no turning back. Be sad forever, asshole.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: Murzelpfrumpft]
#23698846 - 10/02/16 12:11 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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thanks again, Murzelpfrumpft, for info on Robert Whitaker. found him on youtube. mindblowing with lots of documentation. multiple videos available there, i watched for hours. very informative on multiple aspects.
Edited by laughingdog (10/02/16 12:13 AM)
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zzripz
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: 404]
#23699115 - 10/02/16 03:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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404 said: I'm afraid that depression is much more complex than 'serotonin floating in the synaptic space between neurons', other neurotransmitters and receptor types may be involved, along with the immune system and certain types of genes. One that was recently identified as being an additional culprit in 5 major psychiatric disorders including depression was a gene called CACNB2 and regulates the flow of calcium in the neurons, regulating the action potentials in respective types of neurons
LOL 'I am afraid'? Who are you?
'is much more complex'? How do you mean by 'complex'? You mean you have to be some kind of 'chemical genetic genius neuroscientist' to understand the complexity of the brain? human mind?
I am guessing you don't mean complex relating to the complexities of living and the myriad ways culture causes oppression on one and all?
I am afraid you won't understand until you look and feel in a far more complex way which includes understanding how the pharma-psychiatric industry has functioned since its inception and continues to (not that long ago according to them being gay was 'mental illness'!), and how other institutions of bodymind control have functioned prior to its emergence. THIS is complex. Not yet again looking for a 'culprit' gene, 'CACNB2' or whatever chemical, to scapegaot and help 'disappear' the actual awareness and invesitigations and thus resolving of the oppressions that can drive people fkin mad! I mean LOOK. They on one hand are now admitting that their 'chemical imbalnce' 'diagnoses' was false, though they term it euphemistically 'metaphor' (ahhh HOW poetic!), and with the other hand are now depending on this gene-explanation bollocks like they have done previously, and still do, to explain away eg 'schizophrenia', and of course along with these 'diagnoses' come THE DRUGS! and THE PROFITS. because remember remember, these people are unning a business and they wanna keep them billions rolling in. This mindset is the very same who are wanting to give soldiers with PTSD (oh they love their souless abbreviated little drug hooks) a drug that totally 'wipes out traumatic memories'. Can you not see what a truly insane mindset is behind all of this model of 'mental health'?
Quote:
The New Eugenics: Why Genetic Theories of Mental Illness and Addiction Are a Damaging Dead End
Modern genetics doesn’t forcibly sterilize people. But fashionable theories around it put us in boxes just as eugenics once did, harmfully ignoring cultural and social differences and individual change.
Adam Cohen’s book, Imbeciles: The Supreme Court, American Eugenics, and the Sterilization of Carrie Buck, chronicles the horrors of the eugenics movement. It focuses on the 1927 Supreme Court decision in Buck v. Bell, in which an 8-1 majority upheld forced sterilization. Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote in the decision: “It is better for the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind.”
We all scorn eugenics today, recognizing its unscientific roots and its substitution of scientific terminology for prejudice. But we now kowtow to a virtually equivalent philosophy, one with no greater grounding in science—that is, the idea that mental illness and addiction are determined by our genes.
Of course, we don’t today allow forced sterilization based on genetics. But the implications of genetically-focused, biological psychiatry, for society and for individuals and families, are colossal. [ff]
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss



Registered: 04/05/15
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Last seen: 9 months, 7 days
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: zzripz] 1
#23699144 - 10/02/16 04:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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As many have touched on, I think 'depression' as a category is much messier and less 'legitimate' than we would like it to be. With medical issues I've been chasing up over the last couple of years, I've discovered, as I'm sure many have, the lack of concreteness of most medical 'disorders' or 'diseases', which zzripz regularly alludes to. These labels are broad descriptions, and, most of the time, reinforce some standard of cultural values. My favorite example, namely because it's arbitrariness is so obvious, is the condition 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'. What is this 'syndrome' exactly? What is it caused by? Just how 'chronic' does someones fatigue need to be before they have achieved the aforementioned syndrome. None of these questions have solid answers. There are many causes: allergies, diet, fitness, lifestyle, genetics, auto-immune disorders, hormone cycles etc. CFS is little more than a phrase that describes, however vaguely, what a person is feeling, or how they are behaving, and says almost nothing about the underlying physiological state of said individual. Moreover, there are lots of different types of fatigue too, sleepiness, lethargy, CNS exhaustion etc. which all feel different, and cause different kinds of behaviors and struggles, yet are equally captured by 'Chronic Fatigue Syndrome'. 'Depression' seems to me to be the same kind of condition.
Which leads us to the conclusions that demiu5 and Jokeshopbeard have already come to. It seems to be a very common instinct to claim intellectual authority, or to jump up and shout 'EUREKA!' as if you finally understand it all. Than to simply take what tools we have, do the best with them that we can, and admit that a shrug is really the best we can muster in response to most deep questions.
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psychobla
Stranger

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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? *DELETED* [Re: secondorder]
#23703022 - 10/03/16 10:16 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Post deleted by psychobla
Reason for deletion: Doxxed
-------------------- A bunch of jokes, with a grain of truth in each. The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. What will be, will be.
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404
error


Registered: 08/20/10
Posts: 14,539
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Re: If you suffer from depression is there something chemically wrong inside your brain? [Re: zzripz]
#23703075 - 10/03/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Quote:
404 said: I'm afraid that depression is much more complex than 'serotonin floating in the synaptic space between neurons', other neurotransmitters and receptor types may be involved, along with the immune system and certain types of genes. One that was recently identified as being an additional culprit in 5 major psychiatric disorders including depression was a gene called CACNB2 and regulates the flow of calcium in the neurons, regulating the action potentials in respective types of neurons
LOL 'I am afraid'? Who are you?
'is much more complex'? How do you mean by 'complex'? You mean you have to be some kind of 'chemical genetic genius neuroscientist' to understand the complexity of the brain? human mind?
I am guessing you don't mean complex relating to the complexities of living and the myriad ways culture causes oppression on one and all?
I am afraid you won't understand until you look and feel in a far more complex way which includes understanding how the pharma-psychiatric industry has functioned since its inception and continues to (not that long ago according to them being gay was 'mental illness'!), and how other institutions of bodymind control have functioned prior to its emergence. THIS is complex. Not yet again looking for a 'culprit' gene, 'CACNB2' or whatever chemical, to scapegaot and help 'disappear' the actual awareness and invesitigations and thus resolving of the oppressions that can drive people fkin mad! I mean LOOK. They on one hand are now admitting that their 'chemical imbalnce' 'diagnoses' was false, though they term it euphemistically 'metaphor' (ahhh HOW poetic!), and with the other hand are now depending on this gene-explanation bollocks like they have done previously, and still do, to explain away eg 'schizophrenia', and of course along with these 'diagnoses' come THE DRUGS! and THE PROFITS. because remember remember, these people are unning a business and they wanna keep them billions rolling in. This mindset is the very same who are wanting to give soldiers with PTSD (oh they love their souless abbreviated little drug hooks) a drug that totally 'wipes out traumatic memories'. Can you not see what a truly insane mindset is behind all of this model of 'mental health'?
Quote:
The New Eugenics: Why Genetic Theories of Mental Illness and Addiction Are a Damaging Dead End
Modern genetics doesn’t forcibly sterilize people. But fashionable theories around it put us in boxes just as eugenics once did, harmfully ignoring cultural and social differences and individual change.
Adam Cohen’s book, Imbeciles: The Supreme Court, American Eugenics, and the Sterilization of Carrie Buck, chronicles the horrors of the eugenics movement. It focuses on the 1927 Supreme Court decision in Buck v. Bell, in which an 8-1 majority upheld forced sterilization. Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote in the decision: “It is better for the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind.”
We all scorn eugenics today, recognizing its unscientific roots and its substitution of scientific terminology for prejudice. But we now kowtow to a virtually equivalent philosophy, one with no greater grounding in science—that is, the idea that mental illness and addiction are determined by our genes.
Of course, we don’t today allow forced sterilization based on genetics. But the implications of genetically-focused, biological psychiatry, for society and for individuals and families, are colossal. [ff]
I don't get why you are getting so butthurt over this, i said the issue of depression was more complex than the person i replied to was letting on, listing some more facets of depression. Feel free to let it rustle your jimmies though if you want
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