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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap
    #23686933 - 09/28/16 02:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)



Above are some photos showing a new experiment in fruiting tops and bottoms.  I'd love to get some thoughts and suggestions about this. 

Using propagation tray lined with window screen and filled with coir/verm/gypsum.  Tray is filled with ~ 5qt sub, 4:1 spawn ratio, and wrapped all the way around with bubble wrap.  Filled 9/23/16.  Cubensis, Tasmanian strain.

Note:  The empty tray pictured is not the same one that was filled.


Edited by Mr.Caterpillar (09/28/16 02:48 PM)


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23687197 - 09/28/16 03:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Are you using a green house?  I think I've seen someone try before.  Don't remember how it turned out. Should be interesting.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: themadextractor]
    #23687201 - 09/28/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

bubble wrap eh?


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: themadextractor]
    #23687310 - 09/28/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

themadextractor said:
Are you using a green house?  I think I've seen someone try before.  Don't remember how it turned out. Should be interesting.




I wouldn't call it a "greenhouse".  I'd call it a "growroom".  Its a room custom built for growing mushrooms that is capable of holding 95% humidity at 75 deg F with plenty of fresh air coming in.

I used to always fruit tops and bottoms with composted substrates, and sometimes had sensational results.  Sorry, no pics to prove it! 

You might have seen an earlier post I made where I tried to do something similar.  However, it was my first time growing with coir and it F'd up pretty badly.

Yeah, bubble wrap.  I came across the "bubble wrap tek" not long ago and it really impressed me.  Seems to me it could solve some of my persistent problems in getting good pinsets on the bottom sides of trays.  I used to wrap my shelves in black poly sheeting, but it was hard to get it even and tight on the bottom.  Some areas seemed to have incredible pinsets and others none at all - very hit and miss.  However, bubblewrap has more body than poly sheeting, and the network of bubbles allows a uniform capillary flow of air that is (I think) not too much for spawning, yet just enough for pinning.  Using bubble wrap I am hoping to have more control of the pinset both top and bottom.

I'll post some more pics if and when it starts pinning.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23687326 - 09/28/16 03:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

What about wrapping it in hardware cloth?


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mycolorado]
    #23687398 - 09/28/16 04:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
What about wrapping it in hardware cloth?




I used plastic hardware cloth for fruiting from the bottom for years.  It doesn't alter the gas exchange at all.  It also lets alot of sub fall through during the filling process, which is no biggy, but its messy.  I'm not using hardware cloth now because I am specifically experimenting with bubble wrap, and the trays made with window screen were already laying around (those prop trays are for harvesting and were designed to be filled with fresh mushrooms and slipped onto drying racks).  I'll see how the window screen does, and if it is anything like how it was in the past than the pins will form outside of the screen and the mature shrooms will be very easy to harvest.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23688295 - 09/28/16 08:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Looking forward to seeing that flushed out!


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mycolorado]
    #23689014 - 09/29/16 12:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
Looking forward to seeing that flushed out!




Thanks!  Me too!


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23689027 - 09/29/16 12:29 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Why not just take it out of the tray when it comes time to put in cropping phase?


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: azur] * 1
    #23689113 - 09/29/16 01:36 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

azur said:
Why not just take it out of the tray when it comes time to put in cropping phase?




Take it out of the tray?  So far, in my (limited) experience using coco coir, the mycelium doesn't bind the coir tightly enough.  The mycelial mat would probably not hold together well once taken out of the tray, and it would be messy, if not a disaster.  Besides, you'd lose the carefully cultivated fruiting potential of the bottom once it was separated from the screen - like scraping off a casing.  No, the mat is best left in the tray methinks.  Moreover, if this experiment works well then I have already thought out a shelving system that makes using such propagation trays highly efficient, and I can't imagine how pulling the sub out of the tray would contribute to efficient production whatsoever.


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: azur] * 1
    #23689142 - 09/29/16 01:55 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

BTW, Azur, I dig that link in your signature:  "Highroller Method".  That looks great, and it is what I am aiming for, but fruiting from the bottom as much as from the top. I'm going to have a close look at that thread!

"As above, so Below"  So spoke the 'Thrice Great' Hermes Trismegistus!


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23689188 - 09/29/16 02:35 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

:popcorn:


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: nobody83]
    #23689332 - 09/29/16 05:44 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Neat. But i dont know what your talking about coir when colonized holds together fine


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: tump]
    #23689849 - 09/29/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tump said:
Neat. But i dont know what your talking about coir when colonized holds together fine




I suppose so, but not yet in my personal experience - this will be my fourth time using coir.  However, I've been working through some problems that have impeded the health of my coir grows thus far, but everything is getting sorted out and is starting to shape up.  However, I can't see a reason to pull the sub out of these trays anyway.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23691276 - 09/29/16 05:13 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Such an awesome idea!

Any thoughts on cutting out the sides?
I'm guessing bottom-side casing layers are out of the question..?


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: TheLongComma]
    #23691535 - 09/29/16 06:22 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

TheLongComma said:
Such an awesome idea!

Any thoughts on cutting out the sides?
I'm guessing bottom-side casing layers are out of the question..?




Thanks!  It's not a new idea.  Growers that taught me liked to fruit the bottoms - it was considered SOP, and I did it successfully over many crops.  What's new is doing it with coir - new to me at any rate.

I don't want the sides open.  Fruiting sideways is typically a hassle to work around.

A peatmoss type casing is more or less impossible to apply to the bottom of a tray due to gravity, however in a zero-gravity environment, such as a space station, it just might work.  A lot of interesting possibilities arise when we consider growing mushrooms in outer space!

The bubblewrap is meant to act as a kind of synthetic casing substitute.  Some people put bubble wrap or crumpled wax paper over uncased subs to stimulate pinning.  It is typically done when there is not adequate humidity, and the open bottom of a tray tends not to have the same humidity as the top, so I am experimenting with using the bubble wrap


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23691576 - 09/29/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

SPACE CAKE


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar] * 1
    #23691644 - 09/29/16 06:40 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Caterpillar said:
Quote:

azur said:
Why not just take it out of the tray when it comes time to put in cropping phase?




Take it out of the tray?  So far, in my (limited) experience using coco coir, the mycelium doesn't bind the coir tightly enough.  The mycelial mat would probably not hold together well once taken out of the tray, and it would be messy, if not a disaster.  Besides, you'd lose the carefully cultivated fruiting potential of the bottom once it was separated from the screen - like scraping off a casing.  No, the mat is best left in the tray methinks.  Moreover, if this experiment works well then I have already thought out a shelving system that makes using such propagation trays highly efficient, and I can't imagine how pulling the sub out of the tray would contribute to efficient production whatsoever.






OHHHDAYMMMMMMMMMMMMM


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OfflineMr.Caterpillar
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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: seagypseas]
    #23696013 - 10/01/16 12:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

seagypseas said:
OHHHDAYMMMMMMMMMMMMM






Here are pics of the tray fully colonized.  Kind of hard to take a picture of from the bottom, but I am happy with the result there especially!  On the bottom mycelial growth is luxuriant with hyphal strands aggregating into hanging rhizomorphs, and from the midst of this lushness one may expect ample pins to form.

Now the question is:  How to proceed?


*Should I leave the bubble wrap on and see how it pins with bubble wrap on?

*Or should I unwrap it and expose it to the 95%+ humidity of the room?


I want to fruit it uncased.  I've not used bubble wrap before, and it seems kind of counter-intuitive to put it over the sub to aid in pinning since it seems that it is restricting FAE that is needed for inducing primordia formation.  In the past I would open this up to the air without question, but these days I am trying new things.

What do you think I should do?


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23705561 - 10/04/16 12:41 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)



I decided to split the difference.  The covered side seems to be doing better.  I'm still dialing the room in, and had a hiccup with the fogging.  Also, oscillating fan in use was too forceful.  Now I have fixed both problems, but the open side has probably taken a hit, and might not pin so much.  I've had to mist a number of times.  Ideally, if you have ultrasonic fog working properly, there is no need to mist an uncased sub.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23705666 - 10/04/16 02:32 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting mix now. Why is your fogger not working


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: tump]
    #23710082 - 10/05/16 01:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tump said:
Interesting mix now. Why is your fogger not working




I had set up two 5 head ultrasonic foggers, and then put them both through the internal relay of the "Image Digital Humidity Controller" (humidistat from Amazon - seems to work nicely, I have never found a humidistat that worked at high ranges before this one - and cheap too!).  It seems that was too much load for the humidistat relay and the result was that my transformers were ruined - they don't work now.  I should have set them up running through an external relay - oops!  Luckily, I had a spare transformer laying around and put that into service, so now I have one fogger working.  After adjusting fan speeds it seems to be providing enough fog.  It needs to be like the Andean Cloud Forest, the coral islands of Zanzibar, or the Highlands of Sri Lanka in there!


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23726843 - 10/10/16 10:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)



Above is the top and bottom of the first tray.  Yes, the bubble wrap side did better.  Exposed side got hit by a humidity drop right at the onset of initiation, and never really recovered from that.  I'm not used to growing on such thin substrate depths, and I am learning that it needs more watering than a thick substrate since it dries out more easily.  Once a day I was opening up the bubble wrap top and bottom and letting it get more air for an hour or two.  I suspect that the reason there is not more pinning toward the center of the tray is that when it first began to pin it was completely under the plastic and not getting enough air.  I think in the future I will cut some slots in the bubblewrap to let a little more air in.




Here is a second tray I did. This one used a 1:8 spawn ratio in CVG (I want to see what the lowest spawn ratio I can use with coir is, and what I need to do to make coir work with low spawn ratios).  This one was unwrapped as soon as I saw pins form. 

Both trays have taken a beating as I have been growing them out as I build/adjust other parts of the room, however the main point was about bubble wrap and what benefit it might give to bottom pinning.  In this respect, I am very gratified:  I think the bubble wrap is great for setting pins on the bottom of a tray, and I intend to continue using it.

Already I have built a new shelving system that uses the bubble wrap to advantage.  From this I expect more controlled results and will post something later.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23727304 - 10/11/16 01:35 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Since you want a low spawn ratio make straw logs


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: tump]
    #23727327 - 10/11/16 02:13 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tump said:
Since you want a low spawn ratio make straw logs




Not sure what a straw log is, and I tend to avoid straw.  I don't like shredding it - no fun!  And it tends to contaminate unless composted. 

I might go back to doing this:



However, I am thinking of substituting coir for straw when I build the pile.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23727363 - 10/11/16 03:47 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

No point in a coir compost. Straw can work up 1 to 20 ratio and still work. Coir doesn't do well past 1 to 5 ratio. RR and many other believe 1 to 4.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: Mr.Caterpillar]
    #23727410 - 10/11/16 05:01 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Good job! :thumbup:

What would happen if you tipped it on a 90 or a little less so it dont go kerplunk?  The shroomise on the bottom dont look very happy.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: wtfcrazymofo]
    #23728118 - 10/11/16 12:16 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wtfcrazymofo said:
Good job! :thumbup:

What would happen if you tipped it on a 90 or a little less so it dont go kerplunk?  The shroomise on the bottom dont look very happy.




Thanks!  None of the shrooms look very happy in my experiment, but its not because of what direction they are growing, its because the sub lacks water and nutrition.  When the mushrooms are bigger their weight will make them grow downward on the bottom.  Turning the tray 90 deg would be difficult - sub would fall out or collapse.  You could probably make a container that is like an ant farm with screens on either side, fill it, and watch it pin from the sides.


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Re: Double-sided fruiting experiment using propagation trays and bubble wrap [Re: tump]
    #23728149 - 10/11/16 12:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

tump said:
No point in a coir compost. Straw can work up 1 to 20 ratio and still work. Coir doesn't do well past 1 to 5 ratio. RR and many other believe 1 to 4.




RR talks a lot about enriching coir.  I think if it is enriched correctly the spawn ratio can come down.  Why not?  RR also talks about using it as an amendment to hpoo compost, or maybe he just means mixed with cooked poo - I'd have to double check those notes.


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