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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #23686880 - 09/28/16 02:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

What do you mean ? Please elaborate.

@conn- if there is a global catastrophe I will surely try it.

Opiates are the silver lining on the dark cloud of disaster.

I am saving the pleasures of opiates for when something horrible happens so I can have relief and pleasure no matter what happens.

As long as life remains good, I will stick to Kratom :kratomtee:


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
High on Spite
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Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,067
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23686897 - 09/28/16 02:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Everything you say in your OP is speculation.  You are saying these things like they are indisputable facts, when much of it is what you read into the situation.  Fair enough, but I think you're either wrong for the most part or at least missing parts of the story.


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OfflineJustForToday
New Life, New Beginnings


Registered: 09/08/14
Posts: 3,186
Last seen: 6 years, 5 months
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23687029 - 09/28/16 02:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Thanks :japsmile:

Why can't you give ratings ?

@Conn: that's cool. I bet if I ever tried it PST would be my drug of choice.

A legal, natural , serious opiate . Amazing !

Enjoy friend :hug:




Because people kept updating their ratings of me when I had them on ignore constituting harassment. Asante warned them to stop or he would take away their ability to leave ratings. They actually got shot down like children getting a spanking. LOL. I left a rating for treana, and she reported it like I was actually harassing her through ratings. So they took away my ability to rate but tbh I don't really care. Whats even more funny about this is treana has been begging me to take her off ignore. I wanted to go back to the romp. "Take me and everyone off ignore and you can come back." The answer is a simple no.:lol:

Wouldn't doubt if a mod removes this post because all treana has to do is simply tell them to like she is admin or something I don't get it.


--------------------
Hey Shae, Are you still doing that hand thing? I heard you was doing that hand thing today. Oh God what is that?!



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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
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Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #23687069 - 09/28/16 02:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I'd not say they want people addicted to opiates. If that were true I wouldn't have to go to my doc only when I have excruciating pain so he could give me a handful of tramadol or vicodin after a series of needless tests. None of the doctors I've been to are interested in treating my daily pain, just treating it when it climbs up to nearly unbearable levels.

It's not a piece of cake to get opiates in the US. Lots of people who really need them can't get them because of a terrible fear that they will become magically addicted and be responsible for that.

Nah.
It's not about getting people addicted to opiates.


It's about control. All of this, from law to patents, is about control. The truth is authority fears freedom. The elite fears freedom.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,067
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23687120 - 09/28/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:sadyes: The reality is more complex with different layers of fear and hatred.  You can try to make a war on authority, but then even if that were feasible you'd probably just end up oppressing someone else, even though you think yourself blameless in it all.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #23689584 - 09/29/16 07:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

What I laid out is the logical connection between the motive and the outcome  (the classic investigatory question- who stands to gain? And the the axiom - follow the money ).

So what is the counter argument ? It's fine to say you think I am wrong, but why and on what grounds ?

What alternative explanation do you offer and what logical basis do you have to support it ?


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


Edited by Moonshoe (09/29/16 07:51 AM)


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
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Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23689598 - 09/29/16 07:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I think the counter is that the DEA is stupid. And since it seems that they didn't even know what kratom is, and finally admitted that weed is less dangerous than pot just this past month, it seems a plausible argument


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23689738 - 09/29/16 08:43 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

That's not amcounter argument . The DEA is stupid . That doesn't conflict with the idea that the pharmaceutical lobby is the motivation behind the ban at all.

It is true that a secondary part of it is also that the more drugs are illegal the more protected the jobs of DEA vermin will be.

The DEA will always want to throw people in prison for anything they can to protect their own vile role in society and ensure their budget expands etc. So that is a secondary or additional motivation.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
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Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23689846 - 09/29/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not arguing that Moonshoe, I just think it's a bit more complicated than BIG PHARMA WANTS US ADDICTED TO OXYCOTIN which I'm sure is the opinion of most of your debate partners.


Really I think it does simply come down to control. It's healthcare as a whole that doesn't want us treating ourselves with holistic medicine. Or treating ourselves at all for that matter. "Go see a doctor" that didn't work tho "go see another doctor." "have these tests" "try these pills" it is ingrained into society now that a doctor and his medicine is the only way to be healthy. That's why they've worked so hard to smear at home remedies in the last century. They want us to believe that there is no alternative to the chemical concoctions they make and sell.

Unlike most herbs or holistic treatments, kratom is a glaring example that puts the lie to what is accepted modern medicine.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


Edited by CookieCrumbs (09/29/16 09:29 AM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23690286 - 09/29/16 11:47 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

If it was just about control in a general sense they could just as easily have gone after kava, mucuna pruriens, L theanine, adrafinil , SAMe, valerian root or a million other natural highs and non prescription psychoactives.

The reason they are not going after any of these but targeting Kratom instead is because Kratom is the only one that allows opiate addicts to get free of their addiction and thus cut into the opiate profits the pharmaceutical corporations make.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
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Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23690334 - 09/29/16 12:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Not entirely true. The benefits with everything else you mentioned can and is largely be chocked up to be placebo. Kratoms benefits are, again, glaring and obvious.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


Edited by CookieCrumbs (09/29/16 12:04 PM)


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InvisibleMoonshoe
Blue Mantis
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Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23690386 - 09/29/16 12:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

That's not true at all. All of the things I mentioned have undeniable benefits and effects that are not in any way explicable by placebo. They are all effective drugs with science showing they work. Some have fairly dramatic and powerful effects.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineConnoisseur

Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 34,686
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23690492 - 09/29/16 12:53 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
I think the counter is that the DEA is stupid. And since it seems that they didn't even know what kratom is, and finally admitted that weed is less dangerous than pot just this past month, it seems a plausible argument




bahaha ok im sorry but if you think the DEA is stupid you need to open your eyes a lil more

im not going to explain it all though since moon has already said it all


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Moonshoe] * 1
    #23690505 - 09/29/16 12:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
Make no mistake - the reason they are doing this is one hundred percent because they know Kratom helps thousands of people quit pharmaceutical opiates or avoid becoming addicted to them in the first place by using it as a natural alternative to things like Vicodin or Percocet that they hold patents for and profit from.






that's a false narrative, if it was about getting people off of opiates then it
wouldnt be illegal to be in possession it opiate/opiod drugs without a scrip


the reason it's illegal is someone said "there outta be a law against it..."


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OfflineConnoisseur

Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 34,686
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23690512 - 09/29/16 01:01 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

its not the only reason, its also because it cuts into the profits of the opiate/opioid market


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #23690516 - 09/29/16 01:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
I think the counter is that the DEA is stupid. And since it seems that they didn't even know what kratom is, and finally admitted that weed is less dangerous than pot just this past month, it seems a plausible argument






I seriously doubt they said  that weed is less dangerous than pot


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
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Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Moonshoe]
    #23690517 - 09/29/16 01:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Moonshoe said:
That's not true at all. All of the things I mentioned have undeniable benefits and effects that are not in any way explicable by placebo. They are all effective drugs with science showing they work. Some have fairly dramatic and powerful effects.




Science yes. The modern medical community tho? There is enough wiggle room in those medicines to imply they are largely ineffective. You can't do that with kratom when it saves heroin addicts from horrible physical withdrawals. Lets consult the may clinic's FAQ.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/generalized-anxiety-disorder/expert-answers/herbal-treatment-for-anxiety/faq-20057945

Kava. Kava appeared to be a promising treatment for anxiety, but reports of serious liver damage — even with short-term use — caused several European countries to pull it off the market. The Food and Drug Administration has issued warnings but not banned sales in the United States. Avoid using kava until more rigorous safety studies are done, especially if you have liver problems or take medications that affect your liver.

Kava is unsafe.


Valerian. In some studies, people who used valerian reported less anxiety and stress. In other studies, people reported no benefit. Valerian is generally considered safe at recommended doses, but since long-term safety trials are lacking, don't take it for more than a few weeks at a time. It can cause some side effects such as headaches and drowsiness.

Valerian root is questionable in both effectiveness and safety.


There is better but still very limited comments on the alternative drugs but herbs are always going to be looked down on in the world of modern medicine.

Maybe not always. The webmd articles have improved alot. But for now it's still not accepted medicine in the mainstream medical community.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


Edited by CookieCrumbs (09/29/16 01:05 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Connoisseur]
    #23690532 - 09/29/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Connoisseur said:
its not the only reason, its also because it cuts into the profits of the opiate/opioid market





again a false narrative, why wouldnt the pharmaceutical companies want opiod/opiates
and other abusable drugs to be descheduled since that seriously cuts into their
profits, if you believe kratom sales are actually that high then maybe you should
show us just how much is sold in the US and then show us how much profit the pharma
companies are losing because of this


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
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Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,146
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23690539 - 09/29/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
I think the counter is that the DEA is stupid. And since it seems that they didn't even know what kratom is, and finally admitted that weed is less dangerous than pot just this past month, it seems a plausible argument






I seriously doubt they said  that weed is less dangerous than pot




Phones are gay. Had to reword the sentence and didn't correct everything.

Pot is less dangerous than heroin*



And they may not be as stupid as they act, I can hope not, but they do act very stupid.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


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OfflineConnoisseur

Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 34,686
Last seen: 5 years, 2 months
Re: Understanding the Kratom Ban [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #23690577 - 09/29/16 01:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Connoisseur said:
its not the only reason, its also because it cuts into the profits of the opiate/opioid market





again a false narrative, why wouldnt the pharmaceutical companies want opiod/opiates
and other abusable drugs to be descheduled since that seriously cuts into their
profits, if you believe kratom sales are actually that high then maybe you should
show us just how much is sold in the US and then show us how much profit the pharma
companies are losing because of this




im not even saying thats the rest of the reason, thats just yet another one of many.

if you dont think thats been taken into consideration concerning the ban on kratom i would like to know what you think has because clearly dangers from the use of kratom is not a consideration at all since no evidence has shown kratom to be dangerous in any manner that we know of currently.

also you do realize many people will switch from kratom to opiates/opioids when the ban hits right?

as a result the profits will go up for the people selling them, not by much but even a dollar up is still techinicaly going up.


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