|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: akira_akuma]
#23689958 - 09/29/16 10:10 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
akira_akuma said: thing is, those people that were directly effected by slavery (and can prove it, obviously) can help get those communities richen and prosper by being given reparations...to do with what they will.
in any event, at the very least, if it's all squandered, just imagine the headlines, and think about that concept. 
well if there are community groups/organizers perhaps giving them oversight of the money would be best, but I wouldn't trust random people to do their bit, regardless of the economic conditions of the community, people are short sighted and selfish in most instances, and especially if we're talking the really deplorable ghettos, I just can't see uneducated impoverished and largely ignorant people, raised in a society of 'me me mine' and a community with no fibre, sense of justice or healthy institutions being handed a wad of cash and going 'you know what, I think I'll give this to the schools'
seems like all that'd do is funnel money indirectly to crack dealers and the like
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Dark_Star]
#23689963 - 09/29/16 10:11 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Dark_Star said: The only people in America now that are directly affected by slavery are the victims & loved ones of victims of human trafficking. Not the descendants of the slavery from hundreds of years ago.
true, they are by definition indirectly affected I'd still argue that effect needs to be considered though, from time to time
|
qman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 7 hours, 41 minutes
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: akira_akuma]
#23689974 - 09/29/16 10:15 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
akira_akuma said: thing is, those people that were directly effected by slavery (and can prove it, obviously) can help get those communities richen and prosper by being given reparations...to do with what they will.
in any event, at the very least, if it's all squandered, just imagine the headlines, and think about that concept. 
It would be all squandered in very short order. The casinos in the state I live gave all the profits to the tribal members for many years, these people went from totally broke to receiving millions of dollars, most ended up huge drug addicts and broke when the casino could no longer afford the distributions.
"just imagine the headlines"
Trust me, no one was surprised when almost every tribal member pissed all their money away.
During hurricane Katrina the government gave out debit cards so the blacks in New Orleans could pay for food and shelter for their families, the end result was black women buying $400 Gucci products while their kids had no food, they quickly changed that policy.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Dark_Star]
#23689975 - 09/29/16 10:15 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Dark_Star said: The only people in America now that are directly affected by slavery are the victims & loved ones of victims of human trafficking. Not the descendants of the slavery from hundreds of years ago.
dude, ugh, that's even worse, no, wayyy worse, but let's not even go there, i mean, you realize that that is beyond the scope of what we're discussing, right? look, slavery is still a huge, (a YUGE) huge issue, (see, how i make jokes, eh, eh? fuck why did you have to go here?) -- but hey, man, we are discussing something that involves a historical precedent, and not just a immediate threat....it involves the fact that people have been left for broke in the country, yes, there are rich black people...there are black philanthropists, but the world needs more. that's the point. imagine if a bunch of Mexicans got taken, and placed here...imagine that. would they all be rich? or would they mostly be poor, and destitute?
think about it.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: qman]
#23689986 - 09/29/16 10:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
akira_akuma said: thing is, those people that were directly effected by slavery (and can prove it, obviously) can help get those communities richen and prosper by being given reparations...to do with what they will.
in any event, at the very least, if it's all squandered, just imagine the headlines, and think about that concept. 
It would be all squandered in very short order. The casinos in the state I live gave all the profits to the tribal members for many years, these people went from totally broke to receiving millions of dollars, most ended up huge drug addicts and broke when the casino could no longer afford the distributions.
"just imagine the headlines"
Trust me, no one was surprised when almost every tribal member pissed all their money away.
During hurricane Katrina the government gave out debit cards so the blacks in New Orleans could pay for food and shelter for their families, the end result was black women buying $400 Gucci products while their kids had no food, they quickly changed that policy.
perhaps there should be some stipulations? age, and tax bracket, to assure that the money isn't squandered -- and if the person meets that criteria, money can be funnelled into the community, and it would be meet, indeed. it wouldn't be anything more than a humanitarian effort, essentially.
personally, i don't see a problem with this, in principal.
but i'm probably not really the best person to organise or plan for such a thing, someone else can do that much better.
but in principal, i don't see a problem with the idea.
|
Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Ezuma]
#23689989 - 09/29/16 10:18 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Nah. That shit was hundreds of years ago. They're not indirectly affected by slavery at all. The current racism is a different issue, and won't be solved by giving people money. If that was the case, affirmative action would've solved this problem. It didn't. And I don't buy into this white guilt bullshit. Wasn't even the sins of my father. My ancestors weren't even in this country until around WWII. Only slaves my ancestors may have owned were white Europeans they kidnapped during Viking raids.
--------------------
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Ezuma]
#23689991 - 09/29/16 10:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Ezuma said: well if there are community groups/organizers perhaps giving them oversight of the money would be best, but I wouldn't trust random people to do their bit, regardless of the economic conditions of the community, people are short sighted and selfish in most instances, and especially if we're talking the really deplorable ghettos, I just can't see uneducated impoverished and largely ignorant people, raised in a society of 'me me mine' and a community with no fibre, sense of justice or healthy institutions being handed a wad of cash and going 'you know what, I think I'll give this to the schools'
seems like all that'd do is funnel money indirectly to crack dealers and the like
it should be handled by community organisers...yes, that means...you know...B...L... M!
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Dark_Star] 1
#23690003 - 09/29/16 10:22 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Dark_Star said: Nah. That shit was hundreds of years ago. They're not indirectly affected by slavery at all. The current racism is a different issue, and won't be solved by giving people money. If that was the case, affirmative action would've solved this problem. It didn't. And I don't buy into this white guilt bullshit. Wasn't even the sins of my father. My ancestors weren't even in this country until around WWII. Only slaves my ancestors may have owned were white Europeans they kidnapped during Viking raids.
I think investing in their communities actually would help, in the long run, as would improving the public education system. imo though the real problem aint race, its class, and the fact that blacks are essentially visibly poor, whereas whites get the benefit of the doubt. I bet wiggers and rednecks and all them are similarly disparaged and disadvantaged though, so imo race is really just a highly visible issue which is actually incidental to a much deeper problem that the race-baiters want to ignore
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Dark_Star] 1
#23690015 - 09/29/16 10:25 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Dark_Star said: Nah. That shit was hundreds of years ago. They're not indirectly affected by slavery at all. The current racism is a different issue, and won't be solved by giving people money. If that was the case, affirmative action would've solved this problem. It didn't. And I don't buy into this white guilt bullshit. Wasn't even the sins of my father. My ancestors weren't even in this country until around WWII. Only slaves my ancestors may have owned were white Europeans they kidnapped during Viking raids.
it doesn't have the same precedent.
the blacks were taken slaves well into the modern era. this is a major time difference.
and a major lapse in our judgement of morals and our philosophy on freedom and rights -- everyone else had rights...slaves were not "the norm", as they were in ancient times. they were considered even less so, than those in ancient times. treated worse.
and people were more moral then, then they were a 1000 years before. (like people were more moral before religion was borne unto human severity)
we had slaves well into modern thought. that's frankly detestable. and i have no guilt. when i see white devil preachers, i give them what for. i have nothing to feel guilty about. but i do see why they got abused so badly, and then left for broke here in the nations they were enslaved to...they are the children of slaves. you wanna go into history...ok...go back 3 thousands years, Dark, you are the fucking children of slaves. what the fuck do you? you are abused, because you are the child of a slave. you're not even a mere orphan...you are a piece of meat.
Quote:
Ezuma said: I think investing in their communities actually would help, in the long run, as would improving the public education system....
if TL;DR, then refer to Ezuma's post -- it is a good sum of what i wanted to get across, in less throes. he can grasp what is going on here. i think he's absolutely right, "the real problem aint race, its class, and the fact that blacks are essentially visibly poor, whereas whites get the benefit of the doubt. I bet wiggers and rednecks and all them are similarly disparaged and disadvantaged though, so imo race is really just a highly visible issue which is actually incidental to a much deeper problem that the race-baiters want to ignore".
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Ezuma] 1
#23690052 - 09/29/16 10:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
I'm a big believer in taking action on a local level, community organizing / participation.
The federal government doesn't really do shit for anyone.
On the other hand, people can pool together and make real changes around them, especially considering how many people show up at protests / rallies / riots. Neighborhoods can be cleaned, jobs created, educations provided. Frequent local events can bring people together, organized and petty crime can be brought down to level when people stop turning a blind eye.
Real change
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Repertoire89]
#23690064 - 09/29/16 10:38 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Repertoire89 said: I'm a big believer in taking action on a local level, community organizing / participation.
The federal government doesn't really do shit for anyone.
On the other hand, people can pool together and make real changes around them, especially considering how many people show up at protests / rallies / riots. Neighborhoods can be cleaned, jobs created, educations provided. Frequent local events can bring people together, organized and petty crime can be brought down to level when people stop turning a blind eye.
Real change 
for sure, local governments and councils and such do the work, feds can just give funding. Maybe my perspective is skewed by canadianess though since we tend to hate our feds much less, because the corruption isn't quite as obvious so I often forget the american attitude and reality is different
|
Dark_Star
train driver pervading a desktop


Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 31,859
Loc: Uranus
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: akira_akuma] 2
#23690068 - 09/29/16 10:39 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
They're not even the grandchildren of slaves; they're great-great-great-great grandchildren of slaves. Slavery was a blight in our history, and racism continues to be a blight on our history....likewise with the hatred of LGBT communities. We have work to do. But at some point people have to stop blaming each other for the past. That's not an excuse. We're here now. And I know plenty of people that were born into the ghetto, and were able to get themselves out through hard work. What's everyone else's excuse? I don't want to hear shit about "but my ancestors". There are slaves now living in basements & forced to clean or have sex. They're the ones that could use rescuing & a financial step up. Not someone who's great-great-great-great-great grandfather was on a cotton farm. Take some responsibility for yourself. The holocaust was a lot closer to our time then the civil war. I don't hear Jews saying they're owed anything for that. I don't hear Jews blaming their current circumstances on that. I don't hear the Jews blaming current generations of Germans for what the third reich did. They pulled themselves back together as a community afterwards. They had help, but it was the way they worked together that really counted.
--------------------
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Ezuma]
#23690095 - 09/29/16 10:47 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Ezuma said:
Quote:
Repertoire89 said: I'm a big believer in taking action on a local level, community organizing / participation.
The federal government doesn't really do shit for anyone.
On the other hand, people can pool together and make real changes around them, especially considering how many people show up at protests / rallies / riots. Neighborhoods can be cleaned, jobs created, educations provided. Frequent local events can bring people together, organized and petty crime can be brought down to level when people stop turning a blind eye.
Real change 
for sure, local governments and councils and such do the work, feds can just give funding. Maybe my perspective is skewed by canadianess though since we tend to hate our feds much less, because the corruption isn't quite as obvious so I often forget the american attitude and reality is different
Local government can help, but its really the job of ordinary people imo. All it takes is one person deciding to take action, putting out fliers for help and getting to work.
Small acts can make a big difference, when I was hoboing there was a black man on the side of the road giving out free food to everyone who walked by, I walked 24 miles that day with a 30'lb ruck and was running low on food. That made a big difference to me and didn't take a lot of effort on his part.
Just seeing that someone cares can make a big difference.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Dark_Star] 2
#23690105 - 09/29/16 10:49 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
And I know plenty of people that were born into the ghetto, and were able to get themselves out through hard work.
i liken the rest of your post to the usual cogent and apt awareness of the situations in our discussion here -- but i must warn you of this grave error. you may notice that the ghettos don't go away.
they don't go anywhere, they stay put, and stay stocked. that's the problem.
gentrification is a good thing. i'm just saying, let's speed the process. finding the right people to give reparations to (due to them by the fact of historical precedent) whom will contribute to gentrification, perhaps some of the money goes to proceeds to neighborhood charities. get people on start ahead so they have a bigger chance to change the ghettos -- so they don't stick around.
because they will stick around. not enough people "get out", that don't eventually end up "getting put back in" by and by not only filling the previous but also increasing two fold, as the population steadily increases over time...in otherwords, things aren't getting any better...getting out is only an option for some people, as a rule of thumb. you don't see everyone who's presuming to get rich, get rich, do you? no. i don't think so.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Repertoire89]
#23690110 - 09/29/16 10:51 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Repertoire89 said: Local government can help, but its really the job of ordinary people imo. All it takes is one person deciding to take action, putting out fliers for help and getting to work.
Small acts can make a big difference, when I was hoboing there was a black man on the side of the road giving out free food to everyone who walked by, I walked 24 miles that day with a 30'lb ruck and was running low on food. That made a big difference to me and didn't take a lot of effort on his part.
Just seeing that someone cares can make a big difference.
great, now scale it up to reparations.
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Repertoire89]
#23690118 - 09/29/16 10:54 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
for sure, i think you need government involvement though for big changes, or at least government support for grass roots causes, or more long term government funding of education and fact gathering sciences/studies so that grass roots causes can spring up and function well for everybody's benefit. We don't need more blm type bullshit
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: akira_akuma]
#23690122 - 09/29/16 10:55 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
akira_akuma said:
great, now scale it up to reparations.
Fuck off with your trolling.
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Ezuma]
#23690130 - 09/29/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Ezuma said: for sure, i think you need government involvement though for big changes, or at least government support for grass roots causes, or more long term government funding of education and fact gathering sciences/studies so that grass roots causes can spring up and function well for everybody's benefit. We don't need more blm type bullshit
If you can get the government to do anything, that's great, but highly unlikely.
Hundreds of people show up to rallies, that's a lot of manpower, instead of talking they could get their arms moving.
|
Ezuma
Gontish Wizard



Registered: 12/02/13
Posts: 8,423
Loc: Roke
Last seen: 10 months, 21 days
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Repertoire89]
#23690142 - 09/29/16 11:02 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Repertoire89 said:
Quote:
Ezuma said: for sure, i think you need government involvement though for big changes, or at least government support for grass roots causes, or more long term government funding of education and fact gathering sciences/studies so that grass roots causes can spring up and function well for everybody's benefit. We don't need more blm type bullshit
If you can get the government to do anything, that's great, but highly unlikely.
Hundreds of people show up to rallies, that's a lot of manpower, instead of talking they could get their arms moving.
not really i mean what does a rally do, attract attention and tell the government what to do or what to stop doing. We need government, and many governments aren't utterly ineffectual -I'm actually pretty please with my own currently- but we do at least need a body to fund and direct the gathering of scientific evidence, statistics etc on which to act, without those you just get emotional and irrational gut reactions driving politics which is imo always a bad thing
|
Repertoire89
Cat



Registered: 11/15/12
Posts: 21,773
|
Re: U.S. owes black people reparations for a history of ‘racial terrorism’ [Re: Ezuma]
#23690162 - 09/29/16 11:07 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
|
|
Well in America, rallies and riots brought us worker's rights.
Voting can make a difference, rallies can make a difference, media can, and organizing directly. The last one is what I think American's are really missing at this point.
|
|