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OfflineBikerfool
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Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer
    #23683443 - 09/27/16 02:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Has anyone had success pasteurizing their casing layer using the bucket tek?

I'm sick of pasteurizing in quart jars on the stove.. It's messy, you can't pasteurize very much material at once, and it can be real difficult to keep temps under or above the threshold. 

The tricky part is going to be figuring out the amount of water to add to achieve ideal moisture. This shouldn't be difficult though.

What do you guys think? There must be a reason people aren't pasteurizing casing layers using the bucket tek, a search turns up almost no results.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683460 - 09/27/16 02:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Once you pasteurized one time on your stove you should have it dialed in so you don't even need to measure temperature the next time..

Just do the whole bucket TEK then save some for casing later. Or don't case

The bucket TEK isn't pasteurization its partial sterilization. Hence why it only works with coir verm gypsum


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683467 - 09/27/16 02:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

You can use coir/verm for a casing layer and bucket tek it. Also try using half gallon jars for pasteurization. All of my quart jars are now used for measuring dry ingredients and drinking glasses. I don't use them for spawn/substrate anymore period.

As for dialing in your temp range, preheat your water and hydrate your media with preheated water. Turn the stove down to low once your water is at the desired temp and it will stay there


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683469 - 09/27/16 02:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

what are you using for bucket tek?

coco coir works because it has no microbes.
ive even microwaved pyrex baking dishes full
of coco.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: mushboy]
    #23683476 - 09/27/16 02:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've got 2 tubs with untreated peat/verm casing layers pinning nicely, BTW. Will post results in my APE thread in a few days. Maybe it will bite me in the ass, maybe not.


--------------------

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OfflineBikerfool
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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: mushboy]
    #23683506 - 09/27/16 03:07 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Once you pasteurized one time on your stove you should have it dialed in so you don't even need to measure temperature the next time..

Just do the whole bucket TEK then save some for casing later. Or don't case

The bucket TEK isn't pasteurization its partial sterilization. Hence why it only works with coir verm gypsum




I don't use coir in my casing mix, I use 50:50 verm, peat.

I don't understand why the bucket tek isn't pasteurization. The temperature is at 160 F at the start and is above 140 F after an hour.

Quote:

NumeroEno said:
You can use coir/verm for a casing layer and bucket tek it. Also try using half gallon jars for pasteurization. All of my quart jars are now used for measuring dry ingredients and drinking glasses. I don't use them for spawn/substrate anymore period.

As for dialing in your temp range, preheat your water and hydrate your media with preheated water. Turn the stove down to low once your water is at the desired temp and it will stay there




I like this idea. However, isn't it difficult to test your substrate for ideal moisture if it's 160 F? Or do you hydrate with the same volume of H2O each time?

Essentially what you're doing is exactly like a bucket tek, it's just on the stove.

Quote:

mushboy said:
what are you using for bucket tek?

coco coir works because it has no microbes.
ive even microwaved pyrex baking dishes full
of coco.




I normally use the bucket tek for pasteurizing coir/ verm/ castings.


Edited by Bikerfool (09/27/16 03:23 PM)


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683513 - 09/27/16 03:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Don't pasteurization temps need to hit 170 then down to 150


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23683516 - 09/27/16 03:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

160-165F for an hour has always done the trick for me.


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OfflineBikerfool
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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23683538 - 09/27/16 03:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
Don't pasteurization temps need to hit 170 then down to 150




I've always gone by 140 F to 160 F for 1 hour with leeway up to 170ish.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683544 - 09/27/16 03:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Oh right good to know:highfive:


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23683548 - 09/27/16 03:25 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
Don't pasteurization temps need to hit 170 then down to 150



Not. .140 to 160...the bucket tek is for coir whicgh makes a good casing layer


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683557 - 09/27/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Because boiling water is 212 degrees, well above pasteurization temperatures.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683559 - 09/27/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I use about a quart of water for every 2 quarts of substrate. Sometimes a little more. Getting the moisture level right for me is mostly an intuitive thing now because I've fucked up so many times.

What I do isn't really like a bucket tek, I just use hot water to hydrate my substrate before I load it into jars, so the temp doesn't need to increase as much to hit the critical temp.  Trichoderma spores die at 140f for 10 minutes, so that's the minimum threshold IMO. I like to run my pasteurization for an hour once the core temp in the jar hits 135, which is when I turn the heat off. That gives it a good solid 45 minutes of time at or above the thermal death point for mold spores, while ensuring the temp never exceeds 167f, where the beneficial thermophilic bacteria starts dying. That's with poo substrate though. The only reason I tried some untreated peat casings is just to see what would happen. So far nothing bad has happened, but if there are lots of mold spores in the peat it could get problematic if they germinate and start attacking the mushroom mycelium. We'll just have to see. Since I fruit my tubs with open holes in a humidity controlled room, I'm not too worried about the mold getting an advantage.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Munchauzen]
    #23683623 - 09/27/16 03:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Munchauzen said:
Because boiling water is 212 degrees, well above pasteurization temperatures.




The bucket tek doesn't use boiling water.

5 quarts of water heated to ~160 F is placed into the first bucket,
this acts as an insulator for the 2nd bucket.

In the 2nd bucket goes:

- 650g coir
- 2 quarts verm
- 1 quart worm castings
- a handful of gypsum
- 4 and 1/3 quarts of water heated to 160 F

Everything is carefully mixed and the 2nd bucket is placed into the first and a blanket is placed over them.

Pop the lid after an hour and the temperature of the substrate is always over 140 F.

To me this sounds a lot like your method NumeroEno which is essentially,
- A container with an insulatve layer of water is heated to a certain temperature.
- Inside that goes another container inside of which is substrate or casing
- That material is hydrated with a pre-determined amount of H20 that has been heated to a certain temperature.

A lot of people do have success, but I don't like to use coir in the casing since the casing is supposed to be non-nutritive.

RogerRabbit has argued this point at length and I prefer to use most of his advice since it leads to the most success.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683630 - 09/27/16 03:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

That's not the bucket TEK that's the improved bucket TEK or modified bucket TEK

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11916595


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23683635 - 09/27/16 03:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
That's not the bucket TEK that's the improved bucket TEK or modified bucket TEK

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11916595



:lol::thumbup:


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Munchauzen]
    #23683653 - 09/27/16 04:05 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

i use my homedepot bucket. broken up coir. verm+gyp. boiling as fuck water.

cover for 90min while i have the pc going.
making new tubs while pcin new jars in kinda sexual for me.

moral of the story.

bucket tek with cvg for spawn OR casing will work A-OK.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23683816 - 09/27/16 04:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
That's not the bucket TEK that's the improved bucket TEK or modified bucket TEK

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11916595




Haha, of course.

I can't see any reason why the "improved bucket tek" won't work for
a 50:50 casing mix so I'll give it a try.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683864 - 09/27/16 05:17 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)




I would maximize plain CVG with no casing before trying all sorts of other needless stuff. Besides it keeps it as simple, easy, quick, and cheap as possible.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23683936 - 09/27/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Bikerfool said:
Quote:

Munchauzen said:
Because boiling water is 212 degrees, well above pasteurization temperatures.




The bucket tek doesn't use boiling water.

5 quarts of water heated to ~160 F is placed into the first bucket,
this acts as an insulator for the 2nd bucket.

In the 2nd bucket goes:

- 650g coir
- 2 quarts verm
- 1 quart worm castings
- a handful of gypsum
- 4 and 1/3 quarts of water heated to 160 F

Everything is carefully mixed and the 2nd bucket is placed into the first and a blanket is placed over them.

Pop the lid after an hour and the temperature of the substrate is always over 140 F.

To me this sounds a lot like your method NumeroEno which is essentially,
- A container with an insulatve layer of water is heated to a certain temperature.
- Inside that goes another container inside of which is substrate or casing
- That material is hydrated with a pre-determined amount of H20 that has been heated to a certain temperature.

A lot of people do have success, but I don't like to use coir in the casing since the casing is supposed to be non-nutritive.

RogerRabbit has argued this point at length and I prefer to use most of his advice since it leads to the most success.




When you put it that way yeah, but I always thought of it more like old school proper pasteurization but with more controlled, lower temps. I always had problems with the trich every time I did the bucket tek, but now as I'm older and wiser I've begun to believe that all my failures were due to dirty spawn and not my pasteurization method. Now I'm kinda pushing the envelope to find out just how little extra work you can get away with as long as the spawn is clean. I just cased two more tubs with untreated peat/verm because I have quite a few going and I figured why the hell not...


--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
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Water bright as the sky from which it came
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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23683955 - 09/27/16 05:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:



I would maximize plain CVG with no casing before trying all sorts of other needless stuff. Besides it keeps it as simple, easy, quick, and cheap as possible.



I wouldn't consider myself a total noob but I don't feel I've maximized CVG quite yet.

However I've got this fully colonized PE tub.

Should I bother to case it with the whole casing-layer-reduces-blobs theory? Never cased before, I clicked this thread because I was wondering the same thing regarding casing material, just using bucket tek'd CVG.

Should I just fuckin' wing it? I really didn't plan on casing anything any time soon but I'm second guessing now.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Oregonic]
    #23683980 - 09/27/16 05:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It's definitely a good thing to know, and if you live in a dry climate like me it's more or less mandatory. If your spawn was clean you probably won't have any trouble so I say go for it.


--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Oregonic]
    #23684682 - 09/27/16 09:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:



I would maximize plain CVG with no casing before trying all sorts of other needless stuff. Besides it keeps it as simple, easy, quick, and cheap as possible.




What do you mean by "maximize" CVG?

Using a good culture?
Spawn ratios?
Increasing FAE exchanged as you detailed in the other thread?

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Should I just fuckin' wing it? I really didn't plan on casing anything any time soon but I'm second guessing now.




I vote to case it.

I've been trying some uncased vs. cased tubs lately and I think it's worth it to case. I've had fewer aborts and mutations after casing and slightly better yields.

Casing may increase yields and it certainly won't hurt them.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23684693 - 09/27/16 09:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

IMO the biggest benefit to casing is moisture retention. It makes a huge difference in the desert where I live. Out here, uncased substrates are prone to drying out and serious side pinning. The way I'm doing it, in a humidified grow room, I don't even have to put anything in the holes of my tubs if I use a casing layer.


--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin
Water bright as the sky from which it came
And the name is on the earth that takes it in

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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: NumeroEno]
    #23684808 - 09/27/16 10:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks guys.

I think I'll give it a wack.

But to verify the basis of this thread - totally cool to use bucket tek'd CVG for casing layer? Or should there be equal parts verm/coir?


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Oregonic]
    #23684931 - 09/27/16 11:07 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oregonic said:
Thanks guys.

I think I'll give it a wack.

But to verify the basis of this thread - totally cool to use bucket tek'd CVG for casing layer? Or should there be equal parts verm/coir?




Yep. You can use cvg, straight coir, or straight verm. All perfectly fine.


--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin
Water bright as the sky from which it came
And the name is on the earth that takes it in

DOG FOOD AGAR

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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: Bikerfool]
    #23685556 - 09/28/16 06:44 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

When casing I use only bucket tek coir/Verm, two large two-hand fills of coir/Vern are kept in the bucket when mixing the sub/spawn

After I level my sub I dump the rest on and smooth it out, boom, casing, then I introduce fruiting conditions and let it ride....



--------------------
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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: filthyknees]
    #23685710 - 09/28/16 08:05 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I just cased a couple tubs and immediately put them into fruiting. I've always let the casing partially colonize the substrate first but I'm interested to see how this works.


--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin
Water bright as the sky from which it came
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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: NumeroEno]
    #23685811 - 09/28/16 08:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I never let my coir casings colonize before fruiting, they get overrun way faster than peat based casing layers does.

cold water cvg is great as a casing layer, myc doesnt wanna colonize it as easily.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: spacechildo]
    #23685825 - 09/28/16 08:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I used untreated peat/verm. I accidentally added too much water so there's more verm that peat. Been experimenting with untreated casing and the first 2 I did are looking good. I hope they don't trich out, but the first two I did have been growing for over a week and look fine. One of them has some really fat clusters popping through. I don't use coir at all anymore because there are no pet stores nearby and it's expensive compared to peat moss. Horse manure is free, and a 6 cubic foot bale of peat moss costs the same as a 3 pack of coir bricks. Not that any of it is really expensive but I still like cutting costs. Next tubs I do I'm going to try substituting verm with straw.


--------------------

:gd_icon:  Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield!  :gd_icon:
What shall we say, shall we call it by a name
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Water bright as the sky from which it came
And the name is on the earth that takes it in

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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: NumeroEno]
    #23685829 - 09/28/16 08:47 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

whoa, unpasteurized peat casings :eek: no lime either? hope you got your FAE dialed in good!


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: spacechildo]
    #23685846 - 09/28/16 08:58 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I'd rather not find a culture that needs a casing to do well, clone from MS uncased, fruit the clone uncased. Why give yourself a hassle. If you already do agar work get yourself something that performs uncased


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23685860 - 09/28/16 09:04 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

in such a dry climate as we have here a simple cvg casing layer lets me blast way more fae in the tubs than I can do uncased.
casing a tub takes 30sec tops. its not a hassle at all IMO :shrug:


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: spacechildo]
    #23685896 - 09/28/16 09:18 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

My winters my indoor RH is always around 30 or so.


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Re: Bucket Tek for the Casing Layer [Re: spacechildo]
    #23686316 - 09/28/16 11:46 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
whoa, unpasteurized peat casings :eek: no lime either? hope you got your FAE dialed in good!




Pretty much open air fruiting. Well, monotubs with open holes anyway. I might try doing some open air trays in my grow room.


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