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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244]
    #23800941 - 11/04/16 03:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
Any economic improvement has been realized by a very small slice of the pie. Omitting all of Falcon's little factoids, go to the inner cities (make sure you don't carry cash) and see the conditions these people live in. Notice how the expense of food takes up ALOT more of your disposable income year after year, notice how more people are struggling pay check to pay check, notice how more people are on welfare, notice how employers are leaving the country and how the sense of this whole society being a "rat race" is becoming more present.  If money was being invested and putting people and resources to work, we wouldn't be sitting here having these arguments.



Why "Omit all of Falcon's little factoids"???  I agree with everything you just said here.

Quote:

amp244 said:
Bernie and Trump wouldn't be so popular if the economy was going "up significantly every quarter". There is a reason why we have all collectively identified the economy as an area of deep concern, you know?



Corporate profits are at an all time high.  How can that be if the economy isn't "going up"???  Bernie is popular because he wants corporations to share those record profits, as they did before the Reagan era.

Quote:

amp244 said:
I'm curious to know which quarters you are counting Brian. If you observe up all of the quarters during Obama's tenure you get nothing but growing inequality and poverty.



Amp, NO ONE is arguing with this!  That's the problem Bernie would fix.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23801445 - 11/04/16 06:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Lots of demand is artificial, take out the SS disability and food stamps growth which is fueled with debt, and where would be the demand?  Where is the demand for new homes?  http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/new-home-salesĀ  Still down -50% a decade later.

http://www.barrons.com/articles/bill-gross-weak-credit-growth-will-hurt-stocks-1467815899

"credit growth which as averaged 9% a year since the beginning of this century...barely reaches 4% annualized in most quarters now"

https://www.pimco.com/insights/economic-and-market-commentary/global-central-bank-focus/the-great-escape

You must have a short memory, I showed many times that credit growth has slowed considerably since the 2008 crisis.

http://tradinggods.net/trading-gods-blog/collapse-velocity-m2-money-supply/

As a result, the velocity of money is at a 60 year low.


Edited by qman (11/04/16 06:53 PM)


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23801463 - 11/04/16 06:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So tedious.


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23801467 - 11/04/16 06:26 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

amp244 said:
Any economic improvement has been realized by a very small slice of the pie. Omitting all of Falcon's little factoids, go to the inner cities (make sure you don't carry cash) and see the conditions these people live in. Notice how the expense of food takes up ALOT more of your disposable income year after year, notice how more people are struggling pay check to pay check, notice how more people are on welfare, notice how employers are leaving the country and how the sense of this whole society being a "rat race" is becoming more present.  If money was being invested and putting people and resources to work, we wouldn't be sitting here having these arguments.



Why "Omit all of Falcon's little factoids"???  I agree with everything you just said here.

Quote:

amp244 said:
Bernie and Trump wouldn't be so popular if the economy was going "up significantly every quarter". There is a reason why we have all collectively identified the economy as an area of deep concern, you know?



Corporate profits are at an all time high.  How can that be if the economy isn't "going up"???  Bernie is popular because he wants corporations to share those record profits, as they did before the Reagan era.

Quote:

amp244 said:
I'm curious to know which quarters you are counting Brian. If you observe up all of the quarters during Obama's tenure you get nothing but growing inequality and poverty.



Amp, NO ONE is arguing with this!  That's the problem Bernie would fix.




"corporate profits"

You do realize demand outside of the US has NOTHING to do with demand inside the US?  Half of corporate 500  revenue is outside of the US, so why use corporate profits to measure US economic prosperity?  Growth in China, India, and Brazil has NOTHING to do with the US consumer.

Also, cutting costs has made a huge factor for those profits, not overall demand.

BTW, you're looking the rear view mirror. http://www.wsj.com/articles/corporate-profits-set-to-shrink-for-fourth-consecutive-quarter-1468799278


Edited by qman (11/04/16 06:27 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Great Scott]
    #23801473 - 11/04/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
So tedious.




They don't seem to have memories.


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Invisibleamp244
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Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman]
    #23801522 - 11/04/16 06:47 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Exactly Qman. The economy is the aggregate collection of all the transactions that occur in a given market or in a given region. When transactions, investment, and general money circulation are retarded, an economy is struggling.


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How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman]
    #23801654 - 11/04/16 07:42 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Obama has nothing to do with the massive wealth inequality we are seeing today, it took decades of shitty policies to get here.






:nodofunderstanding: Well, thats...reasonable...although a bit evasive of Ecstatic's point of which i'm sure you are aware.
You're all over the map these days Q.  I never know exactly what to expect from your posts anymore. One of these days you're gonna post in the issues thread, and when that day comes, i expect that i'll be surprised by how much we agree on (one way or the other).


--------------------


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman]
    #23801728 - 11/04/16 08:11 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Lots of demand is artificial, take out the SS disability and food stamps growth which is fueled with debt, and where would be the demand?  Where is the demand for new homes?  http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/new-home-salesĀ  Still down -50% a decade later.



You want to talk about bubbles? 2006 Housing demand was a big motherfucking bubble.
Do you really believe that SS-disability+food stamps are artificially driving demand growth? You didn't explicitly write it, but why bring them up otherwise? And "food aid" came to $116 billion in 20141, consumer spending was 10662.2 billion2 AKA, at most, food aid made up 1.08786%
1 http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/12/federal-spending-by-the-numbers-2014
2 http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/consumer-spending

Quote:

"credit growth which as averaged 9% a year since the beginning of this century...barely reaches 4% annualized in most quarters now"
...
You must have a short memory, I showed many times that credit growth has slowed considerably since the 2008 crisis.
...
As a result, the velocity of money is at a 60 year low.




Forgive me, economics isn't my strong suit, but what is the significance of "velocity of money"? For that matter, I see "credit growth" and read "debt".


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Offlineqman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23801739 - 11/04/16 08:16 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

qman said:
Obama has nothing to do with the massive wealth inequality we are seeing today, it took decades of shitty policies to get here.






:nodofunderstanding: Well, thats...reasonable...although a bit evasive of Ecstatic's point of which i'm sure you are aware.
You're all over the map these days Q.  I never know exactly what to expect from your posts anymore. One of these days you're gonna post in the issues thread, and when that day comes, i expect that i'll be surprised by how much we agree on (one way or the other).




"You're all over the map these days Q."

Not really, I have been posting these same sentiments for a while.  I just don't fit into a set ideology, it's called being intellectually honest.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman] * 2
    #23801749 - 11/04/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You're more dogmatic than most.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Crumist]
    #23801772 - 11/04/16 08:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

qman said:
Lots of demand is artificial, take out the SS disability and food stamps growth which is fueled with debt, and where would be the demand?  Where is the demand for new homes?  http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/new-home-salesĀ  Still down -50% a decade later.



You want to talk about bubbles? 2006 Housing demand was a big motherfucking bubble.
Do you really believe that SS-disability+food stamps are artificially driving demand growth? You didn't explicitly write it, but why bring them up otherwise? And "food aid" came to $116 billion in 20141, consumer spending was 10662.2 billion2 AKA, at most, food aid made up 1.08786%
1 http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/12/federal-spending-by-the-numbers-2014
2 http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/consumer-spending

Quote:

"credit growth which as averaged 9% a year since the beginning of this century...barely reaches 4% annualized in most quarters now"
...
You must have a short memory, I showed many times that credit growth has slowed considerably since the 2008 crisis.
...
As a result, the velocity of money is at a 60 year low.




Forgive me, economics isn't my strong suit, but what is the significance of "velocity of money"? For that matter, I see "credit growth" and read "debt".




You are correct, the examples I gave are very insignificant relative to the total demand, but it's significant to the fact that when you see increases in demand you must also take into account the debt.

The problem we have today is a liquidity trap, banks aren't lending money while companies and individuals are hoarding money.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidity_trap

Even with interest rates at 0% since 2009, credit growth remains far below "normal" levels.  If we don't create more credit, if becomes problematic servicing existing debt.

We are going to have a debt crisis, most of it is junk and can NEVER be paid back in the same currency units.  http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-05/a-record-152-trillion-in-global-debt-unnerves-imf-officials

The velocity of money is showing us the current system is in BIG trouble, we are going to need massive fiscal and monetary stimulus measures in the very near future. The private sector already knows this problem, that's why banks and companies are hoarding.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: qman] * 1
    #23801890 - 11/04/16 09:26 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Remember Ron Paul 2008... god bless his soul.


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #23801900 - 11/04/16 09:31 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

End the Fed

:smuglook:


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Offlinelurkmode
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Great Scott] * 1
    #23802533 - 11/05/16 05:58 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
End the Fed

:smuglook:




You know nothing


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: lurkmode]
    #23802978 - 11/05/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

went and cast my vote for clinton yesterday. there were a lot of inappropriate and racist trump supporters in line. it was a real exercise in self-restraint to not respond to them. oh well, can't expect everyone to have tact and class! i especially expect nothing out of the average trump supporter. in my experience, a lot of them have a couple screws loose and are for the most part in full flight from reality. it's a level of cognitive dissonance like i've never seen during a presidential election! i'll be glad when it's over!


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: lurkmode] * 1
    #23803419 - 11/05/16 01:30 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lurkmode said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
End the Fed

:smuglook:




You know nothing




Oh?



:smirk:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Registered: 08/16/16
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Great Scott]
    #23804143 - 11/05/16 05:53 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

fuck yes


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Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #23804152 - 11/05/16 05:55 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Where do you live? Because when I went in, I saw black and white Trump voters being super friendly to each other. Do not pretend the Hillary clan isn't full of racists.


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot] * 1
    #23804178 - 11/05/16 06:00 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

JonnyOnTheSpot said:
went and cast my vote for clinton yesterday






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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Eminence] * 4
    #23805025 - 11/05/16 10:28 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

i live in north carolina. in this case it was a trump supporter talking about a couple of middle eastern guys in front of me. there are racists tucked away within every group, but nothing on the level of trump's base has ever been seen before in mainstream politics. trump's divisive, xenophobic 'policies' have giving all the closet racists in the united states the courage to become more overtly racist, show their true colors.

peyotezen: if you're a trump supporter, then it's pretty damn ironic that you're calling clinton supporters retards. you follow an imbecile whose ridiculous antics, childish behavior, and total lack of experience is unprecedented in US political history. :thumbup:


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