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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
#23698838 - 10/02/16 12:07 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: probably helps that we built in a system by which to amend the constitution. less point in radical changes in political systems when you can gradually change them through democratic processes, don't you agree? What does the soundness of the United States Constitution have to do with the price of tea in China?
Yea I agree with that. Our system of gov't and law is organic, so to speak.
"What does the soundness of the United States Constitution have to do with the price of tea in China?" You lost me. Did I assert a correlation?
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: elax420] 3
#23698841 - 10/02/16 12:09 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Both the roman republic and empire was much longer lived as well. Argument lost
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: elax420]
#23698849 - 10/02/16 12:14 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
elax420 said: You said a 250 old year old country is the greatest form of government ever established. I don't need to put any words into your mouth to make you look foolish, you've already done that.
2. It's not. England was captured by the Normans in 1066.
2016-1776> 2016-1066 lol, Nice math. Oh and what about China? 2000 year rule. Egypt was really fucking long too.
There are royal families that lasted longer than the USA has been a thing. The distinction between empire and nation is moot, and ultimately meaningless.
Ex-fucking-cuse me? I'm not saying the country is great because it is 240 years old, although that is a symptom of its greatness and evidence of such. I was just thinking to myself earlier, 'wow, elax has really come around, he is making some sound arguments', then this happens.
This is what I said: "The United States of America is the oldest continuous single country (not empire), with the same name, same government, run by the same continuous constitution, ever."
Egypt, Rome, China, Denmark, England, etc, were all empires/had major changes, overthrows, and revolutions. I did the research and the debate has been out for a long time. The above statement is true because of all of its qualifiers. The qualifiers make it true. That's why I used the qualifiers. I called it 'the oldest country...ever' and you told me that I called it 'the greatest country ever.' I'm sorry you have a problem reading plain English.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
Edited by amp244 (10/02/16 12:38 AM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244]
#23698850 - 10/02/16 12:14 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
#23698853 - 10/02/16 12:16 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: http://bfy.tw/7zF7
Damn, how'd you do that. That was cool. And I never heard that saying before. You learn something new everyday. And I don't think I passed any judgement on the "soundness of the constitution" so I don't know what your getting at.
I like capitalism. I like the constitution. And I like life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I love this country. That's not an argument or a suggestion, its a statement of my current state of emotion.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
Edited by amp244 (10/02/16 12:19 AM)
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244] 1
#23698864 - 10/02/16 12:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said:
Quote:
elax420 said: You said a 250 old year old country is the greatest form of government ever established. I don't need to put any words into your mouth to make you look foolish, you've already done that.
2. It's not. England was captured by the Normans in 1066.
2016-1776> 2016-1066 lol, Nice math. Oh and what about China? 2000 year rule. Egypt was really fucking long too.
There are royal families that lasted longer than the USA has been a thing. The distinction between empire and nation is moot, and ultimately meaningless.
Ex-fucking-cuse me? I didn't say that at all. You are unbelievable man. Go quote me buddy. I was just thinking to myself earlier, 'wow, elax has really come around, he is making some sound arguments', then this happens.
This is what I said: "The United States of America is the oldest continuous single country (not empire), with the same name, same government, run by the same continuous constitution, ever."
Egypt, Rome, China, Denmark, England, etc, were all empires/had major changes, overthrows, and revolutions. I did the research and the debate has been out for a long time. The above statement is true because of all of its qualifiers. The qualifiers make it true. That's why I used the qualifiers. I called it 'the oldest country...ever' and you told me that I called it 'the greatest country ever.' I'm sorry you have a problem reading plain English.
Don't make shitty arguments that are based entirely on semantics to try and justify rabid nationalism. There are trees older than the USA, buddy. If you wanna play out this meaningless distinction the constitution wasn't adopted until 1787, before then the article of confederation was the law of the land. We conquered all of Mexico in the 1840s, won what was left of Spanish possessions in the early 1900s (when even mainstream historians say the American empire was born). After WW2 we literally recreated Europe in our image with the Marshall plan. Not to mention our involvements in the Cold War, and even into the post soviet years with Yugoslavia, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq. So what exactly is the difference between us and the U.K.? I have a very pro US friend who is a phd in international politics, I've asked him what he thinks the difference is between us and other failed empires, and if we are doomed to the same fate. He said Rome tried to make everyone roman and it was a massive drain on the economy of the actual romans. The Americans don't give a fuck who you are and what you believe, as long play ball and do business by their rules. ild be inclined to agree with his position
Google a picture of Detroit. I'm pretty sure there are race riots going on at this very moment. "Greatness" is 100% subjective. The glimmer of capitalism was permanently dulled in 2007, most say 1929 though. Both times the market completely imploded and had to be saved by the state.
Edited by elax420 (10/02/16 12:39 AM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244]
#23698892 - 10/02/16 12:36 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: http://bfy.tw/7zF7
Damn, how'd you do that. That was cool. And I never heard that saying before. You learn something new everyday. And I don't think I passed any judgement on the "soundness of the constitution" so I don't know what your getting at.
I like capitalism. I like the constitution. And I like life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I love this country. That's not an argument or a suggestion, its a statement of my current state of emotion.
lmgtfy.com
You were talking about how great the U.S. is and about how long its lasted so far without major change in the system of government, in specific you mentioned having the same constitution etc. You seemed to think that this has something to do with the efficacy of capitalism when it could just as easily be a product of a sound constitution regardless. in other words, the things might be essentially as unrelated as they are to the price of tea in china, see?
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: elax420]
#23698924 - 10/02/16 12:55 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
elax420 said:
Quote:
amp244 said:
Quote:
elax420 said: You said a 250 old year old country is the greatest form of government ever established. I don't need to put any words into your mouth to make you look foolish, you've already done that.
2. It's not. England was captured by the Normans in 1066.
2016-1776> 2016-1066 lol, Nice math. Oh and what about China? 2000 year rule. Egypt was really fucking long too.
There are royal families that lasted longer than the USA has been a thing. The distinction between empire and nation is moot, and ultimately meaningless.
Ex-fucking-cuse me? I didn't say that at all. You are unbelievable man. Go quote me buddy. I was just thinking to myself earlier, 'wow, elax has really come around, he is making some sound arguments', then this happens.
This is what I said: "The United States of America is the oldest continuous single country (not empire), with the same name, same government, run by the same continuous constitution, ever."
Egypt, Rome, China, Denmark, England, etc, were all empires/had major changes, overthrows, and revolutions. I did the research and the debate has been out for a long time. The above statement is true because of all of its qualifiers. The qualifiers make it true. That's why I used the qualifiers. I called it 'the oldest country...ever' and you told me that I called it 'the greatest country ever.' I'm sorry you have a problem reading plain English.
Don't make shitty arguments that are based entirely on semantics to try and justify rabid nationalism. There are trees older than the USA, buddy
Google a picture of Detroit. I'm pretty sure there are race riots going on at this very moment. "Greatness" is 100% subjective. The glimmer of capitalism was permanently dulled in 2007, most say 1929 though. Both times the market completely imploded and had to be saved by the state.
See its you who has subverted the whole conversation.
I WAS making an argument that capitalism isn't the cause for the country being as FUCKED UP AS IT IS. I wasn't making a point that our country is peachy and everything is so great. I think it is taken for granted that things can be a lot better, that's why people are so passionate about these conversations. I also never called the nation itself great. I said the system of government was great. And yes that is subjective and it annoys me when others say that so touche.
Capitalism didn't cause 2007 or 1929. And if you like too big to fail than hell yea buddy, keep saving the market and watching this wealth inequality you decry grow and grow! Its too bad people like you are actually in office. Its too bad politicians actually champion your argument. According to you people, most politicians are like Ron Paul, and Barak Obama had to fight his bills through a congress that wants a commodity backed currency and free-markets. Its hilarious to me that people who advocate policies that clandestinely cause wealth inequality and servitude call me ignorant for advocating the system that allowed our ancestors to get wealthy irrespective of class. The Federal Reserve, Progressive Income Tax, state administered education, these are Marxist ideas, not capitalist ones. They didn't exist in this country until the 20th century.
Just because the state stepped in and redistributed wealth from the taxpayer to the mega rich, doesn't mean they had to. The taxpayer bailed out the lender, when they could have bailed out the homeowners, or they could have just let the institutions fall. Either way, the people lost their houses. Under capitalism, the banks fail, and the taxpayer keeps their money, and the people who defaulted lose their homes.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
#23698929 - 10/02/16 12:58 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
amp244 said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said: http://bfy.tw/7zF7
Damn, how'd you do that. That was cool. And I never heard that saying before. You learn something new everyday. And I don't think I passed any judgement on the "soundness of the constitution" so I don't know what your getting at.
I like capitalism. I like the constitution. And I like life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I love this country. That's not an argument or a suggestion, its a statement of my current state of emotion.
lmgtfy.com
You were talking about how great the U.S. is and about how long its lasted so far without major change in the system of government, in specific you mentioned having the same constitution etc. You seemed to think that this has something to do with the efficacy of capitalism when it could just as easily be a product of a sound constitution regardless. in other words, the things might be essentially as unrelated as they are to the price of tea in china, see?
I listed the fact that it had the same constitution because that was a qualifier to make my statement true. Without that aspect, an argument could be made for a different country to be the oldest. Clear?
The constitution sets up a system of free-markets. You can't find the word "capitalism" in the constitution, you don't implement capitalism, it is a natural phenomenon. The constitution ALLOWS for capitalism to arise. The two are complementary. For instance, you couldn't have our constitution and socialism. The constitution will not prescribe it, and socialism must be forced and implemented.
Edited by amp244 (10/02/16 01:08 AM)
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244]
#23699222 - 10/02/16 05:59 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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capitalism = a natural phenomenon.

you gotta love the kiddie propaganda.
Quote:
The constitution will not prescribe it, and socialism must be forced and implemented.

"un-implemented capitalism".
PS: the constitution does not say you can't "implement" -- nor does it say that "it would not be prescribed socialism". LOL, your argument here is laughable. PPS: socialism is already "implemented" in the US.
Quote:
, keep saving the market and watching this wealth inequality you decry grow and grow!
which side are you on senator?
i hope AMP is another Trump supporter, cause then it's just too perfect...damn wealth inequality, we need redistribution...DOWN WITH SOCIALISM!
Edited by akira_akuma (10/02/16 06:05 AM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244] 3
#23699789 - 10/02/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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yes yes, there were many qualifiers in your statement. Here, let me try.
I am the most financially successful person in the history of the world with my name, date of birth, height, weight, and social security number.
pretty impressive huh?
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Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
#23699825 - 10/02/16 10:48 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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you've got my vote.
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: akira_akuma]
#23699913 - 10/02/16 11:24 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Lol, Akira, its really hard to make sense of your posts. You should really strive to be more articulate, because in a lot of instances, I don't know what you are trying to say.
You quoted "un-implemented capitalism" and posted one of your stickers because you think capitalism is implemented? Find me one u.s. law document that has the word "capitalism" in it. If we didn't write laws implementing capitalism, yet our economic system is capitalist, well then I guess you can try to use your brain and put two and two together. Capitalism doesn't have to be implemented, it is a what? A natural phenomenon. Its what happens when you leave people to engage in whatever transactions they mutually agree to, without forcing them to do anything. That's capitalism: let people do what they want. Let people transact with who they want, on what terms they both agree.
Capitalism means that people are allowed to accumulate capital and exchange that for labor, or the capital of others. God made you the owner of your life. God gave you the right to dispose of your labor as you wish. Our Constitution and Government were conceived for the ultimate purpose of protecting natural rights such as these.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
#23699919 - 10/02/16 11:26 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: yes yes, there were many qualifiers in your statement. Here, let me try.
I am the most financially successful person in the history of the world with my name, date of birth, height, weight, and social security number.
pretty impressive huh?
Yea my statement was nowhere near as exclusive. My qualifiers still included thousands of countries throughout the course of history, none of which lasted as long as the U.S. Your qualifier excluded everyone except yourself. Not impressive at all, pretty damn ignorant if I may say so myself.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244] 1
#23699944 - 10/02/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Capitalism doesn't have to be implemented, it is a what? A natural phenomenon.
no, verily, it's an invented concept, that be practised in a variety of ways.
i'm all for laissez-faire capitalism, but everyone knows that i wouldn't get half as much, with my job, nor would the system be set up fairly, if the private corporations held the market on everything i'd be able to make; my makings would produce little but squander.
great personal philosophy. i don't mind living by own made means, that's what i would prefer. but the entire country couldn't survive like that.
Quote:
Capitalism means that people are allowed to accumulate capital and exchange that for labor, or the capital of others.
now you've got Capitalism right. but you can't say it's a natural force. it certainly isn't. it's an implemented system of organised economic and political thought.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244]
#23699966 - 10/02/16 11:45 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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you may, if you wish. Hyperbole not withstanding, your reaction assures me that you got the point.
Yes, The U.S. has lasted the longest, as long as you don't count any of the many nations that lasted longer. whoop-di-do!
btw, your 240 years number is off by about 12. The U.S. constitution wasn't ratified until 1788. In fact, it was a radical re-structuring of the previous American system of governance under the Articles of Confederation. So there.
Edit: the new government under the U.S. Constitution didn't take effect until 1789 despite being ratified in 1788
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Edited by ballsalsa (10/02/16 01:34 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#23700087 - 10/02/16 12:36 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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i'm stalking the "who's online" function right now like
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Crumist
Stranger


Registered: 11/02/13
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
#23700133 - 10/02/16 12:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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What are we arguing about again? Y'all wanna call it quits and grabs some brews? 
Oh, and "price of tea in China" is new to me, I like it. I am more familiar with "What does X have to do with the price of apples"
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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Great Scott
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Crumist] 1
#23700260 - 10/02/16 01:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Vote Donald Trump 2016!
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Great Scott]
#23701229 - 10/02/16 06:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'd rather trump win, but I know its gonna be Hillary.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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