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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23686547 - 09/28/16 12:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I've posted our ranking in the world, you don't care, I've posted the spending compared, you don't care

Republicans are mean!


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #23686564 - 09/28/16 12:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I've posted our ranking in the world, you don't care, I've posted the spending compared, you don't care

Republicans are mean!




Wheres your proof of your claim?

You cant just post random graphs about education spending and claim it as evidence for your argument.




Where is the evidence that too much spending is whats wrong with the US education system? Wheres the graph that show that the nations spending less per capita have smarter citizens?


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23686567 - 09/28/16 12:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Republicans cut spending, that's bad, that's why we are 20 trillion debt


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: hostileuniverse] * 2
    #23686574 - 09/28/16 01:01 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

So...what? You give up?

Time for HU's 300th annual pity party?

"My inability to use facts to support my arguments is a liberal conspiracy!"


Go back to your safe space if youre so easily triggered.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23686575 - 09/28/16 01:01 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I've posted our ranking in the world, you don't care, I've posted the spending compared, you don't care

Republicans are mean!




don't be such a baby.  your evidence didn't support your argument and i explained why.  Now do the work of reading some shit until you can substantiate your claims, or just admit that you were pulling arguments out of your ass please.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23686582 - 09/28/16 01:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
I know, let's double taxes and spend three times as much, then our systems would all soar above and beyond the rest of the world, and if it don't work, it's republicans fault



yesh, this consistent hyperbole is GREAT conversation. :rolleyes:


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23686587 - 09/28/16 01:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)



Are we number one yet? What do these numbers mean?


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #23686599 - 09/28/16 01:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)



This one is pretty, does this one mean we beat the world in math?:popcorn:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #23686607 - 09/28/16 01:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

:ponder: how can someone be this uninsightful....


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #23686610 - 09/28/16 01:09 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:


Are we number one yet? What do these numbers mean?



Quote:

hostileuniverse said:


This one is pretty, does this one mean we beat the world in math?:popcorn:



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:

Wheres your proof of your claim?

You cant just post random graphs about education spending and claim it as evidence for your argument.




Where is the evidence that too much spending is whats wrong with the US education system? Wheres the graph that show that the nations spending less per capita have smarter citizens?







...


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OfflineWebster10
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23686916 - 09/28/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The other day you were asked to provide evidence for your assertion that raising taxes will cut down the debt, given that the debt has doubled under Obama even though he raised taxes. You said simple algebra. You don't always provide evidence for your claims, sometimes you just make shit up. So don't act like you don't.


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:leaf: :usa:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Webster10]
    #23686949 - 09/28/16 02:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

all of the above helps cut down the debt. the problem here is most of you people oversimplify everything, and then make the argument about your petulant oversimplifications.


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OfflineWebster10
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23687058 - 09/28/16 02:51 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The more I hear what you have to say, the more I realize you know nothing about anything.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Webster10]
    #23687125 - 09/28/16 03:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

and how would you know that?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Webster10] * 1
    #23687141 - 09/28/16 03:11 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Webster10 said:
The other day you were asked to provide evidence for your assertion that raising taxes will cut down the debt, given that the debt has doubled under Obama even though he raised taxes. You said simple algebra. You don't always provide evidence for your claims, sometimes you just make shit up. So don't act like you don't.




:lolsy: are still you baffled by that?

Theres two sides to a budget: revenue, and expenditures.

Raising taxes raises revenue.

Therefore......you can do it.....


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: relic]
    #23687177 - 09/28/16 03:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

relic said:
Quote:

amp244 said:
You know, there was a time when there was no such thing as the Income Tax in this country. People take for granted that there needs to be a massive gov't fucking with the economy for things to run correctly. They don't read far enough into history to take note of all of the prosperity that took place while the Federal Gov't sat on the sidelines(comparatively), and people took care of themselves.  How ever did we manage the Industrial Revolution without our precious Income Tax, Federal Reserve, and Inflation? How were people eating without the constant devaluation of the currency?





yes, the .00001% were extremely prosperous.  it was great if you were one of them; the land holding, white, male, elite.  if you were a little guy then your life was infinitely more simple and immensely more difficult.

and sure, there wasn't "income tax" at the time you speak of, but they DID have taxes and high tariffs on whiskey, contracts, playing cards, deeds, wills, newspapers, instructional pamphlets, lead, paper, paint, tea, sugar, taxes just to be eligible to vote, tobacco, textiles, etc. etc.

you know everything i'm writing, but you omit it when stating your case about not needing a strong central gov't with attendant income taxes...at that time we lived in an agrarian society where people created for and took care of themselves, by and large.  that era has long been gone and is never coming back.  during such a time the relative needs of the federal gov't were low compared to now.  hell, our need for a strong federal gov't was relatively low; we could muster militias and kick some ass with squirrel guns if we had to.  in addition, resources were seeming unlimited for those who were able bodied.

fast forward 200 years and people no longer make their own clothes, build their own houses, clear their own land and the list goes on and on.  we now have a global economy with a thousand extra players on the field and this is never going backwards but for a worldwide calamity.  even then, the global economy will eventually rebuild and we'll be back to where we now find ourselves.

in a global economy with the advancements in technology we've
seen--along with our now dwindling resources and ever dangerous world players--a strong central gov't is both necessary and good...as long as we keep the beast in it's cage with checks and balances.

where we, as citizens of this republic, have failed is by not holding representatives accountable for their complicity in not keeping the beast in its cage.  that and allowing things like the citizens united ruling and lobbyists to be acceptable in american politics.  money has corrupted politics to an absurd level and there is so much wasted in the corrupting of politics that it's pretty fucking sick.  but that's getting off the point.



Poverty wasn’t a major problem in the U.S. like it is today until the mid 19th century. I was speaking of the Industrial Revolution, which predates that, and I was speaking exclusively of the U.S. The poor back then were mostly orphans, widows, sick, and old who didn't have families and couldn’t work and fell on the church. Your assertion that only the .00001% prospered is totally baseless. Everyone wasn't making their own clothes, building their own houses, and raising all their own food. Maybe to a greater extent than they do today in rural communities, but people in both rural and urban communities were benefiting from the division of labor which gave rise to the Industrial Revolution, which gave rise to an exploding economic nation, which gave rise to immensely wealthy cities. There were carpenters, blacksmiths, speculators, pin makers, butchers, etc. These people weren’t all broke and the gov’t didn’t take 40% of their produce. They owned their own trades, hired their own employees, and donated to their churches. The carpenter paid the blacksmith for tools, the blacksmith paid the butcher for food, and the butcher paid the carpenter to build his house. Yes poor people did exist, but if they had no family, they fell on the church. They were takin care of.

You can make the argument that 'the blacksmith isn't needed today, china builds tools' but the economic landscape is different today. There was no such thing as an IT job back then. I don't buy your argument that technology is too advanced for the self-organizing, natural process of capitalism, which built this great country, to bring further prosperity.

And yes they had taxes, as the gov’t always has. The difference between a tax on whiskey and the tax on income, is the tax on income is a tax on a necessity, while the tax on whiskey is on a luxury. “The power to tax is the power to destroy” –John Marshall. When you tax nearly half of someone or something’s income, you are creating a huge disincentive toward production and prosperity. I don’t understand how people think taxing people is a way to grow anything in the macro sense. You are just shifting money from one pocket to the next, the arithmetic just doesn’t work out. Churchill and I “contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.” If you want to rob the rich and give to the poor, than that’s what you want to do, but that isn’t going to grow the economy. An economy grows as its demand for labor grows. Its demand for labor grows as landlords and investors seize on opportunities to turn a profit. When your gov’t kills the profit incentive and sets up policies to take what the rich have earned through prudence, you drive money and jobs out of the country. So go ahead with your ambitions to lessen the wealth disparity by destroying wealth and the economy at large, as if one is kept poor by virtue of the fact that one is wealthy.

I do agree we are on a much more global playing field than before, but we have always been on the international market. It’s not like the Founding Fathers were Native Americans.  Fast-foward 200 years and some people still build their own houses and clear their own land; and there are still plenty of resources, just no money to put them to work. Yes there are more players, but the players aren’t the problem, the policies are.

I agree with you on one thing. When you say money has corrupted the gov’t, I agree, with one qualification: I would change “money” to “Wall Street” or “Special-Interests”. I think money in and of itself gets a bad rep and that in its absence the power to control and direct the labor of other men would still be the object of exploitative entities, and that money is but a necessary vehicle for exchange in an advanced economy with the division of labor; but that’s a completely different argument. When people contend that the super-rich aren’t pulling their fair share, then concede that the super-rich are controlling the government, they should then realize that these super-rich CREATED the big government in order to SOLIDIFY and INSURE their presence as our masters. When people rely on their gov’t rather than themselves, they have no freedom. When you lived with your parents they fed, clothed, and sheltered you, and if you didn’t obey them they would restrict your privileges, take your phone, and punish you. They had leverage. You never had true freedom until you moved out on your own. But on a macroeconomic scale you and your family are on the same team. Who do you think cares more about you: You and your family, or the Government? In whose hands would you rather have the power ultimately rest?

But I agree with Step 1: drive Wall Street(money) out of the government. But we split here on the further steps. I say to cull back ever creeping government influence, cut spending, rewrite the tax code, put the central bank back under the Treasury, fire every single mother fucker at the SEC and exclusively hire previous whistleblowers (Marcopolos, Albert Myers, etc) in their place. Just for starters. 

“When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P.J. O'Rourke

The more the gov’t exercises control over the markets, the more prosperous the politicians and the elite become. The freer the markets become, the more prosperous the people become.


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"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (09/28/16 03:41 PM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244]
    #23687204 - 09/28/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Seems to me youre throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

How about we just get corporate money out of politics if thats the problem?


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23687220 - 09/28/16 03:34 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

That's the first problem, wall street controlling the government. Government is against the people, because it IS the establishment by proxy.

And if you want an example of a modern economy that prospered by minimal intervention, I submit to you: Hong Kong.

And lets be clear. I am not advocating an economy bereft of government, please don't assume I live in a black and white world. I can see the grey areas.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (09/28/16 03:36 PM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: amp244]
    #23687235 - 09/28/16 03:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Fair enough


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Offlinehostileuniverse
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Re: Official Hillary vs Trump Debate Thread. [Re: Webster10]
    #23687324 - 09/28/16 03:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Webster10 said:
The other day you were asked to provide evidence for your assertion that raising taxes will cut down the debt, given that the debt has doubled under Obama even though he raised taxes. You said simple algebra. You don't always provide evidence for your claims, sometimes you just make shit up. So don't act like you don't.




He does that shit a lot, he even claimed Clinton lowered the debt, which he did not. He's one of those guys "who claim they know everything, and when proved wrong, just call other people stupid" and of course because of ideology, he has his cheerleaders

It's kinda funny to watch actually :lol:


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