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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: Lucis]
#23696120 - 10/01/16 01:29 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I will check that out Fennario. Thanks!
Children of narcissists face particular challenges, such as
* You’re a doormat. * You’re afraid you might be a narcissist yourself. * You feel relentlessly competitive with, or resentful of, your sibling. * At times, you’ve felt you were more your parent’s partner than their child. * You derive self-worth solely from your achievements. * You have no sense of yourself, your wants, your needs or your goals.
Especially last 3 are totally me. I took my father's position in the family, with my step-mom. It took me years to discover who I really am, as I have always been other focused.
From this article . . .
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/6-ways-to-know-you-were-raised-by-narcissists_us_5616b091e4b0082030a18f72
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secondorder
Amanda Hug'n'kiss



Registered: 04/05/15
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23696208 - 10/01/16 03:07 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
great hearts emerge from the muck, shine as brightly as you can, and when accused of inadequate parenting just keep shining.
many kids expect the light within to be kindled by others.
that type of light is just tradition, ritual, and show, the real light requires an inner resolve which is not dependent on influence.
This is definitely true, but I don't think it can be boiled down to something completely innate or completely environmental. The dichotomy between nature and nurture doesn't really exist. The two influence each other, and are essentially two sides of the same coin.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: secondorder]
#23696448 - 10/01/16 07:23 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Blaming is an echo of error, but it is not clear what original error really is; or even if "knowing original error" is a functional approach to healing at all.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: yeah] 1
#23696531 - 10/01/16 08:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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What's fucked up is everything is some kind of "disorder" or is "damaged" and needs $150/hr. discussion and drugs as treatment. Go to the psych doc, talk an hour, get diagnosed with your disorder, get a drug. The whole pharm system is completely out of control and is completely ineffective other than to make the docs rich. They could give a fuck about hurting kids with vaccines, they have a quota, and an obligation to give those shots at the prescribed time.
So, no, I won't read your article which has the word disorder in the title. The big money wants disorder, they want to provide order out of chaos. They will create the chaos and blame others in order to provide their special solution.
Meanwhile, the control of the internet was just handed over to the UN. Thanks, Barry...
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (10/01/16 08:41 AM)
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yeah



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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: redgreenvines]
#23696551 - 10/01/16 08:49 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Oh
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: yeah]
#23696575 - 10/01/16 09:01 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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viktor
psychotechnician



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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: yeah]
#23697088 - 10/01/16 12:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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My parents were both narcissists when I was born.
My mother changed over the next 30 or so years. She healed and grew. My father didn't - he just stagnated and became bitter.
35 years is a long time. If a parent was 25 when you were born then they may have changed a whole lot since.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: viktor]
#23697163 - 10/01/16 12:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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we should assume everything has changed - and those who did not change, got worse by virtue of not improving while they could have
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100_the_cat

Registered: 09/27/16
Posts: 315
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#23708882 - 10/05/16 04:46 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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ADHD -- my theory is that everyone is hyperactive in their dominant function.
I'm Ni-dominant, spiritually hyperactive, and have been diagnosed with narcolepsy before (which, hilariously, is treated with amphetamines just like ADHD...I'm unmedicated tho)
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Hippocampus



Registered: 04/01/15
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: RJ Tubs 202] 1
#23709784 - 10/05/16 12:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
yeah said:
Honestly I didn't really read the article but all I know is that communication disorder in families will cause mental illness.
Unstable parents who lack parenting skills don't cause "mental illness" in their kids.
"mental illness" implies a biological disease - a malfunction of physiological processes
Not necessarily true. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Georgios_Sideridis2/publication/260876454_Attention-DeficitHyperactivity_Disorder_in_Young_Children_Predictors_of_Diagnostic_Stability/links/0deec5311e19c11cc6000000.pdf Children diagnosed ADHD and years later followed up on and re-assessed. Found that children whose home lives had reduced stress were more likely to no longer meet the criteria to be diagnosed ADHD anymore.
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: Hippocampus] 1
#23720901 - 10/08/16 10:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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There's no scientific evidence the symptoms called "ADHD" are due to a biological defect.
Just like depression and anxiety, there's no evidence of biological malfunction or disease.
Your link reveals (arbitrary) checklists are used - not science.
Your link says
...psychologists assessed each child’s developmental skills by using cognitive, language, and early academic standardized tests, reviewed day care and school intake questionnaires, and obtained ratings of child behavior by using the Behavior Assessment System.
These "tests" and questionnaires have nothing to do with blood chemistry, genes, or neurological malfunctioning.
They aren't based in science. People created them based on opinions on what they think is "normal".
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: zzripz]
#23720934 - 10/08/16 10:52 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Although I know parents can destroy their kids, to really get to the roots we have to look directly down the line to what causes their abuse which in turn affects us etc etc etc
Would you agree that suffering is passed down thru the generations?
Look at how some people are still enraged about slavery.
Both Shakespeare and the Bible speak to "The sins of the father" being passed to his children
I think it's clear that parents pass their suffering to their kids.
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Hippocampus



Registered: 04/01/15
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23721110 - 10/09/16 12:51 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: There's no scientific evidence the symptoms called "ADHD" are due to a biological defect.
Just like depression and anxiety, there's no evidence of biological malfunction or disease.
Your link reveals (arbitrary) checklists are used - not science.
Your link says
...psychologists assessed each child’s developmental skills by using cognitive, language, and early academic standardized tests, reviewed day care and school intake questionnaires, and obtained ratings of child behavior by using the Behavior Assessment System.
These "tests" and questionnaires have nothing to do with blood chemistry, genes, or neurological malfunctioning.
They aren't based in science. People created them based on opinions on what they think is "normal".
eh, it's more science-y than you're making out with your comment. for one, compared to what you've just said, ADHD is proven fucking fact. What you said you've just pulled form your ass as a statement based on what? Some evidence you have that you're not sharing. I'm the first to admit that psychology is a soft science. But they are doing a pretty good job of figuring this stuff out without knowing the biological etiology, which is what I'm assuming you meant by "blood chemistry, genes, or neurological malfunctioning."
Because there actually is chemistry proof. Children with ADHD have significantly different brain chemicals than children without ADHD. Their are clear genetic factors, again measured by hard science. and there is in fact differences in brain structure. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.163.2.316 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811910002582 http://www.nature.com/mp/journal/v16/n11/abs/mp201097a.html http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-009-0694-x http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-009-0694-x
I could go on posting studies all night. The last two are meta studies that include lists of other studies. And each study has many of it's own sources that you could probably follow to learn about this. Or, you know, you could cling to your dogmatic views about it, idc.
But anyway, if you just meant that psychology is not well proven enough for you, then fine. Now tell me what is a better alternative? I mean, yes, we've decided what's "normal" and what's not. What's not normal is a person who cannot focus, has trouble controlling their impulses, and/or can't sit still in their life to the point of it causing them distress or impairment. Many many people have been helped through clinical intervention.
Based off that study I first sent you about home life stress and ADHD diagnoses. Here's a review of studies looking at parental effects in ADHD. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B:CCFP.0000020190.60808.a4 the abstract brings up a good point that children with oppositional defiant disorder and conduct disorder are often comorbid with ADHD. And it's difficult to tell if the parental training and therapy types are making those better, and not the ADHD. I didn't read the whole review, so I don't know what results they found. But it brings up another point. Do you think the opositional defiant disorder is a real disorder? Conduct disorder? What about depression, bipolar.... schizophrenia. Because all of these disorders fall under the umbrella of psychology, which you seem to be dismissing out of hand. How do you account for that?
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RJ Tubs 202


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Posts: 6,016
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: Hippocampus] 1
#23721132 - 10/09/16 01:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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People who love sports show unique brain scans during the Super Bowl.
No human is being scientifically tested for depression or anxiety before drugs are given.
Yes, there are hundreds of "articles" - but nobody is being tested. Zero. Nada.
All of the experiences you mention are 100% real. Yes indeed! Very real.
But there is zero evidence that they are due to biological defects.
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Hippocampus



Registered: 04/01/15
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23721162 - 10/09/16 02:33 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: People who love sports show unique brain scans during the Super Bowl.
seems plausible. Those image and video machines are pretty good.
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:No human is being scientifically tested for depression or anxiety before drugs are given
Yes, it's a correlation based on opinions of psychological syndromes in the first place. So why would you accept brain scans showing that depressed people have different brain structures, activity and chemicals? It all comes from people reporting and showing signs of being depressed. Then those people are tested. It's not to that level where biomarkers can be used to guide medical treatment of http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/06/13/191281803/could-brain-scans-reveal-the-right-treatment-for-depression It's more being used to see what's wrong with people's brains that have already been decided are not normal. I mean, it even makes intuitive sense why grouping people who seem to have similar syndromes and then looking at their brain function would show they are similarly working the same. But more empirical tests are certainly not to the level of being used to diagnose https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3581594/ Not to the level of medical testing. Obviously even having medical vs psyche implies that they aren't on the same level.
But these people experience real things and real suffering from their problems. How should we address that if not using the best evidence at hand?
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: All of the experiences you mention are 100% real. Yes indeed! Very real.
But there is zero evidence that they are due to biological defects.
Well idk what your definition of evidence is. But it's obviously higher than mine. I don't even know why you believe your own statements. There's still zero evidence for those. And less than zero really. Since my requirements for evidence fall below yours in a fundamental way, and all my accepting evidence is considered zero to you. So in order to compare, we'd have to go negative on a scale. You haven't provided any evidence of a single statement of yours. It's a lot of blah blah blah. So shall we call it, according to your scale, -150 evidence?
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yeah



Registered: 02/08/09
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23721685 - 10/09/16 10:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
Although I know parents can destroy their kids, to really get to the roots we have to look directly down the line to what causes their abuse which in turn affects us etc etc etc
Would you agree that suffering is passed down thru the generations?
Look at how some people are still enraged about slavery.
Both Shakespeare and the Bible speak to "The sins of the father" being passed to his children
I think it's clear that parents pass their suffering to their kids.
Ancestral knowledge, other memories, yes. It's all fact.
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Edited by yeah (10/09/16 10:28 AM)
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: Hippocampus]
#23721815 - 10/09/16 11:19 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hippocampus said:
So why would you accept brain scans showing that depressed people have different brain structures, activity and chemicals?
- People who are sexually aroused show different scans that those not.
- People who have violent rage show different scans that those not.
- People who are sleep deprived show different scans that those not.
That different experiences create certain types of brain activity is true.
It's backwards rationale and not cause and effect that the brain causes the experience.
Millions of people are being given serotonin drugs and we don't even measure serotonin levels in humans!
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Morel Guy
Stranger


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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23722766 - 10/09/16 04:15 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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That is the truth. Too much of a monoamine can make a person aggressive and psychotic.
I think generations in some families are getting better. Being firm was very important ages ago because the population was small and life was more fragile. Things have relaxed a good bit over the last half century. Ignorance and starchy preservation is no longer the norm. Education and encouraging the flame of individuals is perceived as better.
-------------------- "in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur" In filth it will be found in dung it will be found
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FlusH
Random person on Internet

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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: Morel Guy]
#23723458 - 10/09/16 07:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have not read the last few posts, not sure if what I'm gonna suggest had been covered;
I'm also from a similar upbringing with a malignant narcissist mother and father.
Recently I've had very good success at overcoming childhood trauma with emdr therapy. No drugs.
I hear it's not for everyone; but it is working for me. I've noticed I am no longer getting dissociated by some events that can trigger me.
Edited by FlusH (10/09/16 11:13 PM)
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FlusH
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Re: The root cause of our damaged hearts [Re: yeah] 1
#23723461 - 10/09/16 07:59 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
yeah said:
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
zzripz said:
Although I know parents can destroy their kids, to really get to the roots we have to look directly down the line to what causes their abuse which in turn affects us etc etc etc
Would you agree that suffering is passed down thru the generations?
Look at how some people are still enraged about slavery.
Both Shakespeare and the Bible speak to "The sins of the father" being passed to his children
I think it's clear that parents pass their suffering to their kids.
Ancestral knowledge, other memories, yes. It's all fact.
Epigenetics!
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