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 ferrel_human
stone eater
 
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 17,123
Loc: South texas
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 Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom  [Re: CookieCrumbs]
#23737548 - 10/14/16 03:42 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
CookieCrumbs said:
Quote:
BANANA.MAN said:
Maybe we shouldnt have just dropped the aromatherapy rouse quite yet.
No. This is corrupt. The government should stop trying to control medicinal herbs. It's one thing to say the isolated compounds are dangerous and illegal. It's another to say the plant itself is when they always do because modern medicine for some reason requires isolation to be considered medicine.
It's wrong. And I know I'm not the only one who's sick of it.
Why are herbs the alternative medicine when they have existed thousands of years before laboratory made drugs? You'd think that alone would mean many of them are better known and understood than half the shit the FDA approves only to go "uh oh" when they realize it causes renial failure 20 years later.
Fuck em. The laws need to change. American healthcare needs to change. They can piss off. No more hiding and pretending and trying to find the loop holes like the corrupted bastards they feed.
And those exploits will be the downfall of big pharma. I just go about my business as always.
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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode
  
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub
Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,188
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: musiclover420] 1
#23737567 - 10/14/16 03:50 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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They themselves have approved things for one reason only to have to later approve it for others. Claims are claims. Ambien is approved as a sleep aid but it keeps me up all night. I don't see how a few people here and there claiming things like being able to lessen colds would effect anything.
It relieves opiate addiction and pain. If it does any real studies it will find that.
Either way I'm mad about the idea that I may have to go to my doctor to get a kratom derived drug. It's wrong. I should have my choice of medicine. Not to be bullied and bagered by someone about how I should treat my body.
Tbh I'll sooner go to opiates than my doctor. He wants me to take rediculously high doses of ibuprofen even though he knows very well it throws my liver out of whack. But it's okay. Because he says it's okay. 
@ferral human: yeah I just hope they don't manage to kill me by then.
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  Free time is the only time 
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ferrel_human
stone eater
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 17,123
Loc: South texas
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: CookieCrumbs]
#23737606 - 10/14/16 04:03 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
CookieCrumbs said:
They themselves have approved things for one reason only to have to later approve it for others. Claims are claims. Ambien is approved as a sleep aid but it keeps me up all night. I don't see how a few people here and there claiming things like being able to lessen colds would effect anything.
It relieves opiate addiction and pain. If it does any real studies it will find that.
Either way I'm mad about the idea that I may have to go to my doctor to get a kratom derived drug. It's wrong. I should have my choice of medicine. Not to be bullied and bagered by someone about how I should treat my body.
Tbh I'll sooner go to opiates than my doctor. He wants me to take rediculously high doses of ibuprofen even though he knows very well it throws my liver out of whack. But it's okay. Because he says it's okay.
@ferral human: yeah I just hope they don't manage to kill me by then.
They kill who they allowed to be killed. I dont buy that shit. So just label me a criminal. I go to work. Make hard earned money. Work for my kids. Treat them well. Never abuse them. Love and treat everyone who deserves to be so. But... I'm a criminal. I accept. So should they.
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Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode
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 BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 7 months, 23 days
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: ferrel_human]
#23737769 - 10/14/16 05:00 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Yeah but they are trying to fuck us over why not lie. Its none of their bussiness anyway and if a loophole allows us to still use kratom why not take advantage of it. Then once it is established as legal studies will surely be done on the medical benefits until they cant be denyed. Maybe not but that sounds possible to me.
But i just want to sat its not acctually as ridiculous as people say that things have to be isolated to be sold as medicine. Its not just some evil money making scheme its for the sake of quality control. You cant control the quality if a plant like you can with pure compounds. Drugs have to be researched extensively. A plant has too many variables to be regulated the way modern medicine is.
If someone died from taking a plant then thats on the pharmaceutical company. So they remove all the variables and make sure people are only consuming what they need to consume and only what had been extensively researched.
Its the same with sterile products like bandaids, gloves, needles or sterile markers. They cant just sell leaves for people to put on wounds they have to be medical grade materials and they have to be totally sterile.
I agree that you should be able to take any plant you want as medicine. And i do take kratom as medicine aswell as recreationally but a large scale, professional company cant work with the large chemical profile that plants have.
Its the way scientists work. They are professional and remove all variables.
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub
Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,188
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#23737871 - 10/14/16 05:32 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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I don't think it's horrible and evil to be studied and medicalized. In fact in an ideal world that is what should happen. But we don't live in an ideal world.
Likewise from what I've heard isolation of the opioid compounds of kratom give it the same side effects, addiction, and ability to OD as other opoids. That's the problem.
And even if the whole plant were available via prescription I'd still have a problem with it. I've been taking kratom for 2 years because as far as anything else short of pure opiates it's about the only thing I can take. My doc gives me tramadol when pain gets way bad. But otherwise it's the ibuprofen. He doesn't want to give me real opiates that are actually easier on my liver (ime) because they're addictive and more than I need. Which is fair. I don't want real opiates either.
Up until I found kratom I was seriously considering suicide. I'm hoping that this "research and comment period" will give me enough time to find something else. I really hope to master acupressure so I can just cut off the nerves pain signals when my body is acting up. But even that will not even come close to what kratom does for me. I loathe being dependent on any drug. But that is my choice unless I somehow magically get better. I depend on pain relievers or I suffer until I decide I can't take it anymore. Which is exactly what motivated me to try kratom in the first place.
And exactly why the poor regulation methods piss me the fuck off. It really is my life these assholes are fucking with.
And I am not okay with being a criminal because I don't want to live in pain.
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Free time is the only time
Edited by CookieCrumbs (10/14/16 05:36 PM)
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 7 months, 23 days
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: CookieCrumbs]
#23738013 - 10/14/16 06:19 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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no. Its much harder to OD on kratom alkaloids because they dont seem to cause respiratory depression like other opiods.
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musiclover420
psychonaut
Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 19,563
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#23738033 - 10/14/16 06:25 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
BANANA.MAN said:
no. Its much harder to OD on kratom alkaloids because they dont seem to cause respiratory depression like other opiods.
Individually they may actually, people have also reported more severe withdrawals from kratom extracts.
--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky
You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by
I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me
I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 7 months, 23 days
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: musiclover420]
#23738036 - 10/14/16 06:26 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Yes but also people have claomed that kratom withdrawl is no worse than coffee withdrawl and some people even claim it doesnt exist. So that obviously has to be looked into more.
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musiclover420
psychonaut
Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 19,563
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#23738053 - 10/14/16 06:30 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
BANANA.MAN said:
Yes but also people have claomed that kratom withdrawl is no worse than coffee withdrawl and some people even claim it doesnt exist. So that obviously has to be looked into more.
That is what I am saying though, the leaf on its own balances its positive and negative effects. But extracts that are not full spectrum have more risk.
Another example is overdosing, that is impossible with kratom leaf but could probably happen with extracts. Isolated alkaloids will probably be worse.
Then again they might have good specific uses in some cases but will almost certainly come with extra drawbacks.
Personally I get very little if any kratom withdrawals but I almost never dose more then 3-4g throughout my day.
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Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky
You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by
I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me
I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 7 months, 23 days
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: musiclover420]
#23738077 - 10/14/16 06:35 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Some extracts are full spectrum. Depends what solvent you use. I get what you are saying. But also i dont think isolated alkaloids will be significantly more dangerous because there are many different strains with different ratios of alkaloids and if one wasnt right then people probably would have noticed. I coould easily be wrong though.
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CookieCrumbs
Fucked off to the pub
Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,188
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: musiclover420]
#23738100 - 10/14/16 06:39 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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My only withdrawal is usually being grumpy. But I chock that up to being in pain more than being without the kratom in my brain. It isn't as bad after a few days but I tend to get really grumpy after a few weeks.
I don't like being grumpy. But I do take a tolerance break every couple months. I'm sure it helps with the wds too. My brother gets what he considers really bad withdrawals. But I don't know. I don't think his withdrawals would be so bad if he had a normal sleep schedule.
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Free time is the only time
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musiclover420
psychonaut
Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 19,563
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: BANANA.MAN] 1
#23738155 - 10/14/16 06:54 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
BANANA.MAN said:
Some extracts are full spectrum. Depends what solvent you use. I get what you are saying. But also i dont think isolated alkaloids will be significantly more dangerous because there are many different strains with different ratios of alkaloids and if one wasnt right then people probably would have noticed. I coould easily be wrong though.
But every strain of kratom still has many alkaloids, the ratios just change. So even in the most unique/ strange kratom strain there will be many alkaloids working together. I guess it depends on what alkaloids are isolated but in the case of mitragynine and the more potent 7-hydroxymitrgynine which are both strong albeit unique opioid partial agonists I believe they will be more dangerous on their own then in their complex natural mixtures.
Think of it as a beer vs hard liquor, the beer is diluted and has many things in it so most people will throw up before harming themselves too much.
But hard alcohol being pure is much easier to take too much of, and the purer the alcohol the harder it is on your body in some ways.
--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky
You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by
I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me
I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite
Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,071
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: musiclover420]
#23738178 - 10/14/16 07:00 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
musiclover420 said:
Quote:
BANANA.MAN said:
no. Its much harder to OD on kratom alkaloids because they dont seem to cause respiratory depression like other opiods.
Individually they may actually, people have also reported more severe withdrawals from kratom extracts.
People have reported severe withdrawals from powdered leaf, doesn't mean that is necessarily true.
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musiclover420
psychonaut
Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 19,563
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: moonrockmushy]
#23738192 - 10/14/16 07:03 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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What I mean by that though is people who are used to leaf reported more severe negative effects from extracts, including no tolerance roof and W/D.
But you are right its just anecdotal and doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot but I do think there will be at least some truth to it.
--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky
You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by
I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me
I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite
Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,071
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: musiclover420]
#23738209 - 10/14/16 07:08 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Maybe so but my intuition tells me that it is not something that most people would enjoy. Kratom is similar to coffee not in effects at all, but in that it is sort of self-regulating for many users. It doesn't encourage frequent redosing or taking more and more.
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musiclover420
psychonaut
Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 19,563
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: moonrockmushy]
#23738276 - 10/14/16 07:28 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Honestly kratoms stimulating effects are reminiscent of coffee IMO but way more smooth and withe little to no jitters/ crash.
It certainly has way more effects then coffee though, I would say its like coffee+ cannabis+ poppies or something  but effects are subjective.
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Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky
You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by
I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me
I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free
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Kenetic
Nam Sayin
Registered: 08/24/14
Posts: 4,389
Loc: I don't believe in land 
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: musiclover420]
#23738299 - 10/14/16 07:37 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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It makes me have fun at work and makes everything interesting. Everything I touch feels good, I'm in a good mood and I have crystal clear focus. This is probably the best drug I've done in my life.
Even if it gets banned I'm still gonna use it. What's one more potential felony? Like it'll really make a differ3nce anyway.
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Todo Cambia
  
  
DMT said: Everyone know's me, they just don't know it yet
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite
Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,071
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: Kenetic]
#23738322 - 10/14/16 07:44 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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The reason I associate kratom and coffee is that they are both in the "definitely a drug but couldn't get high on it if I tried" category.
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musiclover420
psychonaut
Registered: 11/06/12
Posts: 19,563
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: moonrockmushy]
#23738349 - 10/14/16 07:51 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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Quote:
moonrockmushy said:
The reason I associate kratom and coffee is that they are both in the "definitely a drug but couldn't get high on it if I tried" category.
What is your definition of being "high" then? Because if I drink too much coffee I get overly stimulated and jittery/ anxious which is definitely a "high" of sorts and even its mild stimulating effects are technically you getting "high" on a drug. When I eat too much kratom it can definitely make me feel intoxicated/ out of it just like many other things too.
But kratom certainly is much much safer then all of the things it can essentially safely replace from painkillers to antidepressants or alcohol
--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky
You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by
I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me
I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free
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BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson
Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 7 months, 23 days
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Re: Please Take Action to Stop the DEA from Scheduling Kratom [Re: musiclover420]
#23738377 - 10/14/16 07:59 PM (8 years, 1 day ago) |
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If kratom doesnt get you high then neither does oral oxycodone (it obviously does). Its bullshit i totally feel opiated on kratom if i take enough. Like 5 grams and im totally high. Its very clear minded and not very in your face but its totally a high imo.
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