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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23670064 - 09/23/16 04:50 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Morel Guy said:
They think some form of memory may be encoded in DNA.



By 1975 they stopped taking that notion seriously,
No transduction from experience into dna sequences or rna sequences happens,
no storage exists for such a thing
and no player exists for such a thing
DNA or RNA sequences are not the medium for storing memory of any kind.
they are only created by copying, they are only copied from eachother.
nothing gets in between except for destructive accidents like heat or radiation, or chemical disruption.
nothing writes the sequences
memory is not related to it.




Mutations occurs with male sperm as aging occurs.  Old men having kids alters future generations.  My Dad's dad was about 40 when my dad was born and my Dad was 40 when I was born.



what makes old men's sperm mutate? (answer: heat radiation or chemical disruption)
you didn't think it was an example of intelligence altering DNA content of sperm and influencing memory of descendants did you?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23670256 - 09/23/16 07:23 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I do not know what it is, but it increases the likelihood that the kid will grow up to break from reality.  No other mutations are known.  No physical mutations other than neurological. Not a lot is known by me as to what roles genes turning on and off in the brain play.


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"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23670307 - 09/23/16 07:49 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
I do not know what it is, but it increases the likelihood that the kid will grow up to break from reality.  No other mutations are known.  No physical mutations other than neurological. Not a lot is known by me as to what roles genes turning on and off in the brain play.



as far as mental ability and DNA:

you can inherit more or less ability to hold things in mind while doing other stuff.

that includes the number of different ideas, as well as the duration you can keep them intact or sustained in mind while doing other things (or doing nothing)  - cerebrum.

you  can inherit more or less emotional volatility - midbrain, ganglia, amygdala and hypothalamus

you  can inherit more or less acuity of your senses.

you also can inherit more or less sense of timing and coordination.


Aside from that all aspects of your body are reflected in your mind so the greater or lesser vitality of each part or system also affects your mind

these are all inheritable as characteristics of structures in the brain.

memories are not.


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23670489 - 09/23/16 09:21 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Point taken.  I have never held anyone else's memories.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23672088 - 09/23/16 07:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
…
dna code does not mean code as in
you take linguistic meaning and code it into a cypher and then decypher that code and see the original meaning.

dna nucleotide sequences can be expressed into peptide sequences without ever having been coded from those sequences. …





very interesting & important point

as I understand it:

sometimes ‘blueprint’ or ‘recipe’ are used as metaphors for DNA ‘code’

but perhaps, the file that goes to a 3-D printer, or a cookie cutter, are better metaphors.

DNA is a  collection of templates,  other nanoscale molecules use to make proteins,
and these proteins are used by various other organic molecules in the cell to function as components in multiple ongoing processes.

We seem to often view,  the world as being simple: As in: ‘I wanted a soda so I drove to the store and bought one and went home and drank it.’ But as we know, from say the study of ecology, everything is effecting everything at once, without there being a controlling agent.

Finding meaning make sense when we view the world as simple, and look for the motivations of an agent. We see this in detective stories, or entire movies that are based on someone getting revenge.

But when we look at the real complexity of the natural world, say for example: animal population cycles, we find  no central agent and no plot or goal that achieves a unique climax and thus no meaning, (only a repetitious cycle).

Consider this from wiki: “A population cycle in zoology is a phenomenon where populations rise and fall over a predictable period of time. There are some species where population numbers have reasonably predictable patterns of change … There are a number of factors which influence population change such as availability of food, predators, diseases and climate.”

So life  is (always) multiple processes that are cyclic and interactive and mutually interdependent.
DNA is not like an orchestra conductor (who can make some decisions of emphasis), or even the music score, for classical music (which predicts an outcome). It,  does not have a power of it’s own, rather it exists in a the very energetic environment of the cell, where it is used.

It seems to me Richard Dawkins’s idea of the selfish gene although, it dethrones the individual (animal) as the protagonist in evolution, still hangs onto the notion of a self or agent, though it has been reduced in size to the nanoscale.

So I think it’s not just that the idea of evolution is difficult for some theisticly inclined individuals to get their heads around, I think the notion of selfless activity that is ordered and patterned is non intuitive, like the ‘theory of relativity’ is for most people, (& perhaps even Dawkins, depending on how seriously ’selfish’ is taken).

So we may look at the cosmos and see spiral galaxies, and feel awe struck at cosmic order, and forget that when we flush a toilet, or stir milk in our tea or coffee, the same pattern appears.


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: laughingdog]
    #23672216 - 09/23/16 08:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

>So we may look at the cosmos and see spiral galaxies, and feel awe struck at cosmic order, and forget that when we flush a toilet, or stir milk in our tea or coffee, the same pattern appears.

Nice post, and I agree with a lot of it.

But the person flushing the toilet has intelligence. Is some thing flushing the spiraling galaxy? Take that metaphor however you will.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Hobozen]
    #23672312 - 09/23/16 09:22 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

you can always have a bigger story in a bigger story


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23672353 - 09/23/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Easier said than done!


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #23675809 - 09/25/16 03:47 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
I just got back from south florida where I debated a lot of people about religion and ran into an alarmingly large number of people who don't believe in evolution at all.  What many of them pointed out as evidence for intelligent design was a "missing link" between the other apes we see today and the only surviving member of the genus homo.  It took 10 minutes for me to show them how there is no missing link.

All I did was simply introduce them to the now extinct members of the Homo Genus.  The most widely known of these IMO are homo habilis, homo erectus and Neanderthals.  There are many other extinct human like members from the genus homo.

It only looks like there is a "missing link" in the evolution of human beings because many of the species we evolved from are now extinct.  How did the first life form, form on earth I have no clue.  However it's easy to see how human beings aren't as mysterious as we think we are.  We are not separate from nature we are apart of nature and sitting down to study our evolutionary path simply in the last 10 million years can open your eyes to near irrefutable evidence of where human beings came from.




This makes sense to me. I also liked Redgreenvines comments, but some of them were beyond my range of knowledge.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineShroom_Goddess
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Brian Jones]
    #23679541 - 09/26/16 11:22 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

If there is no God, how come you can trace the human genome back to one male, and one female?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Shroom_Goddess]
    #23679674 - 09/26/16 12:06 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Because it's hard to find every single link in evolution way back when asexual reproduction occurred?  A lot of geological events have occurred and it is hard for evidence to preserved to begin with.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23681543 - 09/26/16 10:32 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I think as a philosophical idea...the notion will come from any attachment you have to that idea necessarily..so it could ultimately rest on you being the missing link..and than asking your self if society wants anything more from me..that could be called a missing link as well..because its something that you might be able to do for the sake of community..which is an active role in evolution..


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OfflineBrian Jones
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Shroom_Goddess]
    #23682151 - 09/27/16 04:10 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroom_Goddess said:
If there is no God, how come you can trace the human genome back to one male, and one female?



Who says you can?


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,


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OfflineAiko Aiko
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23683295 - 09/27/16 01:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Aiko Aiko said:
Explain the Cambrian explosion. Also, Darwin had a nifty little test in Origins of Species that was the test of irreducible complexity. By his own test, his theory breaks down.  Along those same lines, the complexity and "intelligence" of DNA also points to a Creator. Anytime we find coded information, the source is always an intelligence. Thats exactly what we find in DNA, coded information. It requires far more faith to believe all of this spontaneously came into being than it does to believe in an intelligent designer or God.



this is so ridiculous
dna code does not mean code as in
you take linguistic meaning and code it into a cypher and then decypher that code and see the original meaning.

dna nucleotide sequences can be expressed into peptide sequences without ever having been coded from those sequences.
there is no thing behind it except evolution from simpler forms.
this may be  too hard to understand, but the people who work with this know they are not working with a cypher.
It is OK not to know or not to understand, but what you are saying has no kernel of science to it.

You should be advised that to repeat it is dumb.

dumb people should not show off how stupid they are.

DNA was not coded,
it evolved and accumulated,
the results, that did not die before mating and procreating, persist in future generations.




So since Im so dumb, I found a really dumb article that totally obliterates your argument. You are trying to make a case for the “information metaphor falsehood.”

This is empty name-calling, not science. No one who knows the subject can deny that the ‘protein code’ in DNA (the amino acid coding regions, often simply called the ‘genetic code’), together with its cellular support mechanisms, constitutes a sophisticated information storage, retrieval and processing system. To call it a “metaphor” means that it only ‘looks like’ information and information processing but is not really so. This is blatantly false. The symbolic structure and narrative sequence dependence of the protein code is exactly parallel to the way that the English language works in our exchange in this email. The words that I write here have symbolic meanings that you can look up in a dictionary, and I have strung them together in a narrative sequence to tell you a story about biological information. The protein code has symbolic meanings that a cell (and you) can look up in a ‘dictionary’ of the protein code, and they are strung together in sequences that have meaning for the workings of the cell. This is true information storage, retrieval, and processing, and no educated person today should be allowed to deny it. To highlight the technical accuracy of this point, the information content of DNA sequences, and of the 3-dimensional proteins that are made from them, can be measured using the Shannon method, as information expert Hubert Yockey showed in his book Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, a review of which can be found here: Great minds on the origin of life (and the Shannon method can only measure a tiny fraction of the biologically useful information in DNA, as illustrated by Dr Rob Carter).

    He claims that the creationist argument is “overly simplistic” and therefore false, because it ignores the 3-dimensional structure and complex interactions of biomolecules. This is a ludicrously false argument. The author is trying to deny the “simple” challenge of the protein code by saying that cells function in a far more complex manner. This is nothing more than an attempt at bluff. It is similar to the argument used by molecular biologists who studied the way in which bacteria build their motorized flagella and concluded that it was so complex that it could not have been intelligently designed. Surely, they argued, an intelligent designer would have created a simpler system! Materialists cannot explain the “simple” protein code in terms of atoms and molecules (matter), so they certainly cannot explain the more complex interactions that occur in whole cells just by saying “it’s more complex than that.” The author is trying to defeat you by hitting you with a weapon that is not in his armoury!

    He claims that DNA is not a causative agent or “set of directions”. This likewise is false. DNA never does anything on its own. It is an information storage molecule, nothing more. It only ever functions in the context of a cell where there are very complex molecular mechanisms in place for retrieving the stored information and putting it to use in the life cycle of the cell. The cell-with-its-DNA is most certainly a causative agent, and it does indeed carry a “set of directions”. Every organism that ever lived has to pass through a single-cell stage during reproduction. That single cell is the cause of its offspring as surely as the Earth’s rotation causes our day/night cycle of sunlight and darkness. And every cell contains a hierarchical set of directions for producing and maintaining its offspring. In the case of humans, the first level of control turns the first single cell of the offspring into a mass of daughter cells that know where the head, tail, right, left, back and front of the final baby will be. The second level of control develops the arms, legs, head, spine and internal organs in the specified places. The third level of control produces the detailed characteristics of that particular individual (e.g. skin, hair, and eye colour, height, weight, gender etc.). Eric Davidson’s (evolutionary) book The Regulatory Genome, 2006, was the first to describe this hierarchical system of gene regulation.
    He says it was not designed. This is an empty claim based upon deliberate ignorance of the evidence for design. He was not there when life began so he has no authority on which to deny the existence of a designer when there is so much evidence for design.

    He says it is the product of mutation and evolution. This is not logically possible because evolution via natural selection can only begin to occur if a population of living-cells-with-their-DNA already exists. The evolution of organisms cannot logically explain the origin of organisms any more than the ‘evolution’ of human language can explain the origin of humans or human language. It is not physically possible either because the rate of mutation is so great that it is degrading the genomes of all multi-celled organisms on earth to inevitable extinction on alarmingly short time scales (Please see Mutations: evolution’s engine becomes evolution’s end! which illustrates this point).

    He says it is “a template which functions as heredity material enabling and regulating RNA synthesis.” This is a description, not an explanation. It is a bit like offering the following statement as an explanation for the origin of a car engine: “it’s there to make the wheels go around”. Explanation requires very much more argument and evidence than description does.

The author of this piece has something to say only because he is ignorant of the science and ignorant of the structure of logical explanations.

The important point is this: biological information is an extremely complex subject that no one fully understands. Materialists do not understand it and they cannot explain the origin of the simplest part of it (the protein code on DNA) so they certainly cannot explain the whole of it by saying that “it is more complex than that”. That is not an explanation, it is just a description.

Here is a story about a surgeon and an engineer that nicely illustrates the complexity of biology. The engineer said to the surgeon “Your job is quite similar to mine. In my job, people have problems with their machines, they bring them to me, I open them up and have a look inside, see what the problem is and fix it, then close them up again. In your job, people have problems with their bodies, so they come to you, you open them up, have a look inside to see what’s wrong, you fix it, and close them up again.” The surgeon thought for a while and then he replied “Yes, I agree on the similarity, but there is also a very big difference. I do the job on my patients with their ‘engine’ running.” This shows how much more complex life is than machines are. And machines are more complex than the atoms and molecules that they are made from. Materialists only have atoms and molecules to explain their world. They cannot explain machines without reference to design, so they certainly cannot explain the much more complex life. An article of mine Life’s irreducible structure—Part 1: autopoiesis illustrates the point if you are interested.

And a nod to irreducible complexity...

Information storage, retrieval and processing is a unique characteristic of life. It requires a symbolic association between items in a code (e.g. an English dictionary, a binary computer code, or a DNA-amino acid ‘dictionary’) together with a language processing system (e.g. human communication, computer software generation, cell function) that can interpret the code via the symbolic associations and carry out work as a result. Information can never be meaningfully studied in isolation; it must always be seen in the context of its language processing system and the work module that this is in turn connected with (and this is the reason that Shannon information is an inadequate measure of biological information). An article by James Shapiro, a world leading microbiologist and anti-creationist, entitled Bacteria are small but not stupid;1 illustrates some of the points I have made here, and highlights the ignorance of the author of the writing that you quoted.

Taken from here http://creation.com/information-metaphor-dna


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Edited by Aiko Aiko (09/27/16 01:58 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Aiko Aiko] * 1
    #23683311 - 09/27/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't read any of that garbage, but your source is ludicrous.  Creation.com is not a legitimate academic source.


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OfflineAiko Aiko
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23683330 - 09/27/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Of course not


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Aiko Aiko]
    #23683346 - 09/27/16 02:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

wtf


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: There is no "missing link" in human evolution [Re: Aiko Aiko]
    #23684492 - 09/27/16 08:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Aiko Aiko said:
... the complexity and "intelligence" of DNA also points to a Creator...




there is no end to stupidity

and there is no end to blind insecurity that doesn't trust itself.

the bird has no need to justify it's song

the lioness hunting, hires no track and field coach.

every healthy 2-4 year old, when told God made everything, asks: "Who made God?"
YOU CAN"T EXPLAIN CAUSATION (of anything) BY DENYING CAUSATION !!!
If one 'thing' can create itself, 'anything' can create itself, and hence needs no external creator!

How do folks get so stupid with age and forget what they knew intuitively when they were toddlers? Now there's a question for God.

There maybe a sacred dimension, but to be so full of doubt, due to lack of experiencing it, that one attempts to prove it continually thru faulty logic, is an effort that will never lead to actually experiencing it, and hence can only lead to a continued unconscious frustration in those who are stuck in this modality.


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