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Invisibletdubz
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Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? * 2
    #23666577 - 09/21/16 10:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/should-hacking-a-tor-user-to-get-an-ip-address-require-a-warrant

On Monday, a judge chucked out all evidence obtained by a piece of FBI malware in a child porn case, becoming the third court to suppress evidence related to the FBI’s investigation of dark web site Playpen.

But US District Court Judge Robert W Pratt also threw a punch in an ongoing legal debate with implications that stretch beyond any single case.

In recent months, judges, defense lawyers, and the government have fought over whether obtaining a Tor user's real IP address, perhaps through hacking, counts as a search under the Fourth Amendment. The debate has serious consequences for whether law enforcement requires a warrant to break into a suspect's computer, even if it's only to learn the target's IP address.

Pratt argued that when the FBI hacked suspected Playpen users and grabbed their IP addresses, that constituted a search.
“If a defendant writes his IP address on a piece of paper and places it in a drawer in his home, there would be no question that law enforcement would need a warrant to access that piece of paper—even accepting that the defendant had no reasonable expectation of privacy in the IP address itself,” Pratt writes in his order.

"It doesn't matter whether the information is an IP address, it matters how the information is obtained"

In the same vein, if an IP address is stored “on” a suspect's computer, which is in their home, law enforcement would also need a warrant to remotely search that computer. A Texas judge in a related case recently argued a similar point.

Both these cases revolve around the FBI's investigation into Playpen. In February 2015, the agency took over the site, but instead of shutting it down, briefly ran it and delivered malware in an attempt to identify its users. That malware was activated when a Playpen user visited a child pornography-related thread and grabbed their real IP address, MAC address, and some other technical information.
But judges are divided over whether obtaining the IP addresses in this way constitutes a search, and whether Tor users have a reasonable expectation of privacy around their real IP address.

One argument from US District Court judge Robert J Bryan, in another Playpen case, was that, because Internet Service Providers (ISPs) know their customers' IP addresses, IPs are “public information, like an unlisted telephone number.” Henry Coke Morgan, Jr., a senior US District Judge, echoed that idea in June.

But in the Playpen cases, investigators obtained IP addresses from the suspects’ private computers. Indeed, the entire reason the FBI deployed malware was because the agency couldn't just discover suspects' IP addresses or go to the ISPs.

“Obtaining information from inside a suspect's computer is a search, no matter what the information is. It doesn't matter whether the information is an IP address, it matters how the information is obtained,” Orin Kerr, a law professor from George Washington University, told Motherboard in an email.

“It's no different from the physical world, where what matters is whether the government broke into a private space to get the information,” Kerr said.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: tdubz] * 3
    #23666670 - 09/21/16 10:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It's very good news that judges are ruling this way, but it sucks that it's probably going to let child porn people off the hook.


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Invisibletdubz
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: nooneman]
    #23666695 - 09/21/16 10:49 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah I keep posting Tor articles for awareness I know a lot of people do whatever on it, just understand at the end of the year with the rule 41 extention it's going to change drastically for everyone on Tor.


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OfflineGPryder
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: tdubz]
    #23667043 - 09/22/16 02:33 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tdubz said:
Yeah I keep posting Tor articles for awareness I know a lot of people do whatever on it, just understand at the end of the year with the rule 41 extention it's going to change drastically for everyone on Tor.




g0d dammit I just started learning how to use this shit and haven't even got anything out of it yet and now its going to change up? of course. Just like as soon as I finally find a good domestic clearnet vendor, after my second order they retire and close up. just like I find out about salvia then my state makes it illegal a couple weeks later before I had a chance to purchase any. Just like how I finally have health insurance for the first time in 8 years, and suddenly every time I go to the doctor or dentist I get a speech about how the government is cracking down on opioid painkiller prescriptions so I get stuck with some weak shit after hearing years of "Theyre giving em out like candy". Why does this keep happening?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: GPryder] * 1
    #23667321 - 09/22/16 07:27 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

All domestic signal intelligence should require a warrant.  Illegal search and seizure is illegal search and seizure.  It seems that there is a conservative element that wants to be very liberal in spying.  They figure that they are doing nothing wrong and have nothing to hide.  Yet everyone has sensitive views they don't want to be picked on about.


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Offlinebigbitch
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: GPryder] * 1
    #23669399 - 09/22/16 08:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

GPryder said:
Why does this keep happening?






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OfflineGPryder
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: bigbitch]
    #23669578 - 09/22/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:unwanted:


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Invisibletdubz
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: GPryder]
    #23669717 - 09/22/16 10:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:computertrip:


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: nooneman]
    #23670200 - 09/23/16 06:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
It's very good news that judges are ruling this way, but it sucks that it's probably going to let child porn people off the hook.




Yes, it's very bitter sweet.  I feel like they keep bringing up the child porn thing in order to gain public support for breaking the law to get drug user's info.  And it almost works on me.  It feels really, really dirty to be happy that these guys get off.  I'd like to see child porn people dead, but I guess once we allow the government to hack their info, they'll be after people buying/selling drugs too. 

:suicide:












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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: Learyfan]
    #23670240 - 09/23/16 07:11 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Going after child porn gets pretty much everybody behind any method of investigation.  Lot's of people do not like street drugs either.  It's fast becoming that new technology is immune to the constitutional protections.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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Invisiblenice1returns
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23675959 - 09/25/16 07:00 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

When have intel agencies in any country at any time ever bothered to get warrants to hack people anyway?

Its not like our public opinion matters on this since they are going to continue to do it as they always have anyway :p


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: tdubz]
    #23675974 - 09/25/16 07:09 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

if police can pose as drug dealers or prostitutes and arrest interested clients, i am not sure how this is any different?


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Invisibletdubz
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: quinn]
    #23677925 - 09/25/16 08:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It's different because the federal courts have not established any cyber laws to deal with encryption or online anonymity. It's a grey area still and the FBI is taking full advantage of there being no precedent.


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OfflineCLIT
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: quinn]
    #23681877 - 09/27/16 12:42 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I think the defense of the perpetrator goes something like "being enticed". I've seen prostitution busts in the streets where the alleged hooker was dressed like lolita and blonde and was enticing "johns" to "talk to her" or "solicit her". The fact that it was night time and she's standing by the bus stop could also get tricky for the "johns" because the "sting operation" could play it off as if the alleged hooker was nothing more than someone waiting for a bus, considering she was standing by the bus. Yet she was being solicited...by way of her enticing gesture and demeanor!

I guess drug stings are similar...

Quote:

quinn said:
if police can pose as drug dealers or prostitutes and arrest interested clients, i am not sure how this is any different?




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OfflineCLIT
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23681891 - 09/27/16 12:50 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I wonder if authorities did a search and seizure without a warrant and found something incriminating? How could that play out in court? Then again I'd assume authorities would have a reason to do a search and seizure therefore they'll more likely take the legal route of obtaining a warrant rather than do it the cowboy way.

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
All domestic signal intelligence should require a warrant.  Illegal search and seizure is illegal search and seizure.  It seems that there is a conservative element that wants to be very liberal in spying.  They figure that they are doing nothing wrong and have nothing to hide.  Yet everyone has sensitive views they don't want to be picked on about.




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OfflineCLIT
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: tdubz]
    #23681896 - 09/27/16 12:53 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

And I thought Tor was anonymous? You know, anything that's meant to be an anonymous browser is pretty much suspect to law enforcement regulators which is why Tor is being targeted. Use Tor as if you weren't using Tor.

Quote:

tdubz said:
Yeah I keep posting Tor articles for awareness I know a lot of people do whatever on it, just understand at the end of the year with the rule 41 extention it's going to change drastically for everyone on Tor.




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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: CLIT]
    #23682382 - 09/27/16 07:35 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CLIT said:
I think the defense of the perpetrator goes something like "being enticed". I've seen prostitution busts in the streets where the alleged hooker was dressed like lolita and blonde and was enticing "johns" to "talk to her" or "solicit her". The fact that it was night time and she's standing by the bus stop could also get tricky for the "johns" because the "sting operation" could play it off as if the alleged hooker was nothing more than someone waiting for a bus, considering she was standing by the bus. Yet she was being solicited...by way of her enticing gesture and demeanor!

I guess drug stings are similar...





i mean they could claim the same thing for the kid porn that they were 'enticed' by the content or people referring to it online? to me it seems very similar..

perhaps the difference is that while the stings occur in a public place the website is reached from the privacy of your home (even tho the signal travels through public places)..

the real question of double standards is:

if you have sex with a hooker from the comfort of your home by waving a dildo strapped to a 10 ft pole out of your window at them, can the police arrest you? :strokebeard:


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: CLIT]
    #23682388 - 09/27/16 07:38 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

CLIT said:
And I thought Tor was anonymous? You know, anything that's meant to be an anonymous browser is pretty much suspect to law enforcement regulators which is why Tor is being targeted. Use Tor as if you weren't using Tor.





yes i am curious about this too? how/why does the website attain their ip address over tor?


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: CLIT]
    #23682518 - 09/27/16 08:46 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

They usually get away with those things.  Really depends on what the defense lawyer thinks and if he wins the argument.  If the defense lawyer isn't motivated to argue then it's not going to matter.


--------------------
"in sterquiliniis invenitur in stercore invenitur"

In filth it will be found in dung it will be found


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: tdubz]
    #23689335 - 09/29/16 05:46 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

"rule 41 extension?" What is changing? Guess its time to finally familiarize myself with i2p

I'd like to point out that there still might be a happy ending to this story. I doubt the FBI case
was built entirely upon evidence gathered from the warantless malware. The kid diddlers can
very well still be going to prison, and if they get off, its because the FBI fucked up in failing
to get a warrant. Don't root against your own privacy


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Invisibletdubz
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: Crumist]
    #23691909 - 09/29/16 07:47 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

It will allow any judge (Even a low end magistrate) from any part of the country to sign off on a warrant for both international and domestic Tor investigations. Otherwise known as network investigative techniques (Tor exploitations).


Edited by tdubz (09/29/16 07:55 PM)


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: tdubz]
    #23692278 - 09/29/16 09:21 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Oh, tbh I thought pretty much any judge could sign any warrant.  Hardly would effect most
people I think. If a judge is signing a warrant, you're boned anyway


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Invisibletdubz
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Re: Should Hacking a Tor User to Get an IP Address Require a Warrant? [Re: Crumist]
    #23692336 - 09/29/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

No, not just any judge can sign off on any warrant. The FBI when it comes to cyber crime, essentially wants to be like the NSA which pretty much has no judicial accountability. Unless you consider the secret foreign intelligence court some form of accountability.


Edited by tdubz (09/29/16 10:08 PM)


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