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InvisibleStargate
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Bulk ethanol
    #23663479 - 09/20/16 10:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I'm looking for a good source of ethanol for my medicinal mushroom extractions. I've got an order for 30,000 bottles, so I've gotta get a good supplier. As people would be taking this as a tincture, it needs to lack contaminants.

I'm planning on vacuum distilling the tincture in order to recover some of the ethanol, but that still means 30ml of ethanol per bottle as a dead minimum. Assuming no waste, that is still 900 liters of ethanol that I need. Realistically, I should shoot higher, such as to purchase 1 kiloliter. Any ideas as to where to purchase at a discount?

Also, I was wondering. Is it possible to suspend the medicinal properties in fractionated coconut oil?


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23664339 - 09/21/16 08:10 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

You ordered 30,000 bottle but can't come up with ethanol?  LOL

Those IBC containers are 1000L.

You have a contract for selling these bottles?  Seems like a risky investment if you don't have a buyer lined up...


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: drake89]
    #23664536 - 09/21/16 09:54 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
You ordered 30,000 bottle but can't come up with ethanol?  LOL

Those IBC containers are 1000L.

You have a contract for selling these bottles?  Seems like a risky investment if you don't have a buyer lined up...



The bottles were $0.05 each, as they were bought in bulk from the manufacturer.

IBC containers? I'll have to google that.

Yeah, I got involved with a guy who usually does multi million dollar deals. He got the contract for us, due to having a strong relationship with someone in the chain. The store we have an opening in, is Whole Foods.

I've been looking around, but the places I found so far have contaminated ethanol in bulk. The kind you aren't supposed to consume, as they could make you sick. Finding clean ethanol seems to be giving me trouble.


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Offlinemyceliups
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23665783 - 09/21/16 05:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)



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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23665966 - 09/21/16 06:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Stargate said:
Quote:

drake89 said:
You ordered 30,000 bottle but can't come up with ethanol?  LOL

Those IBC containers are 1000L.

You have a contract for selling these bottles?  Seems like a risky investment if you don't have a buyer lined up...



The bottles were $0.05 each, as they were bought in bulk from the manufacturer.

IBC containers? I'll have to google that.

Yeah, I got involved with a guy who usually does multi million dollar deals. He got the contract for us, due to having a strong relationship with someone in the chain. The store we have an opening in, is Whole Foods.

I've been looking around, but the places I found so far have contaminated ethanol in bulk. The kind you aren't supposed to consume, as they could make you sick. Finding clean ethanol seems to be giving me trouble.



Probably need a bunch of paper work for food grade liquor.  Youre gonna need a whole shit load of paper work and certification to sell to whole foods, I'm sure you already know that though.


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: drake89]
    #23666439 - 09/21/16 09:22 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
Probably need a bunch of paper work for food grade liquor.  Youre gonna need a whole shit load of paper work and certification to sell to whole foods, I'm sure you already know that though.



Probably, but I'm prepared for that paperwork. I'm used to it anyways, as I've had to do so other times for other chemicals. This is a research & development company after all. Paperwork doesn't scare me.

As for the Whole Foods end of the paperwork, I have no worries. Its all being taken care of. That's the job of my business partner, who got the contract in the first place. This isn't the first time he has done this process.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23669591 - 09/22/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It isn't paperwork that you should be worried about, it's excise tax. Lab grade "denatured" ethanol has small amounts of methanol added to make it unsafe to drink, but still usable as "pure" ethanol. Ethanol that is not denatured is subject to liquor tax and liquor laws, meaning you'll have to pay a pretty steep sum as well as (likely) get yourself a license as an importer or seller of alcoholic beverages.


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Kryptos]
    #23670262 - 09/23/16 07:25 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It's not a beverage nor is tinc taxed as such.  Worst case is you buy rot gut vodka or 190 proof at the liquor store by the pallet load.


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InvisibleThatZman
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: drake89]
    #23674336 - 09/24/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Undenatured-Ethanol-Beverage-Alcohol-CAS-64_50006375107.html

Heres one place I have seen it. There was also another website I found for food grade ethanol in bulk. I think it was marketed for making flavouring extracts. Can't remember the website though.


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: ThatZman]
    #23674507 - 09/24/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ThatZman said:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Undenatured-Ethanol-Beverage-Alcohol-CAS-64_50006375107.html

Heres one place I have seen it. There was also another website I found for food grade ethanol in bulk. I think it was marketed for making flavouring extracts. Can't remember the website though.



Only problem I've been having on Alibaba, is the minimum order size. That one says 16,000 liters.

I'll google around for the one you say is for flavoring extracts :smile:


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23714769 - 10/06/16 11:37 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I would stay clear of the industrial grade ethenol. I mean you could source some 55 gal drums but now you are subject to ATF inspections and you need to keep a log. IME the main downside the flavor, it makes your tinctures a bit rough. I use new Amsterdam vodka which is cheap and smooth, possibly look into buying it from your local liquor store by the pallet to get started. Where do you intend on selling all these bottles? Have you tested the market? Do you have your distribution and sales all set up? Ive made a few hundred bottles and move some here or there but moving 30k is no small task. Making them is the easy part, its selling it that's harder.


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23714865 - 10/07/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Well, we found a distributor selling for $1.50/liter. That's a hell of a lot better than the liquor store.

I'm used to keeping logs anyways. That isn't out of the ordinary for this lab.

We are going to be selling the bottles at Whole Foods. They are waiting for us to fulfill the order.

Yes, the market was tested, and has shown a tremendous response, far exceeding expectations.

Distribution/Sales: Yep, its all set up.

Selling that many isn't hard, when Whole Foods makes that large of an order. They ordered that much due to how well our overpriced, inferior competitor product they are selling is doing.


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23717992 - 10/07/16 10:20 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stargate said:

Selling that many isn't hard, when Whole Foods makes that large of an order. They ordered that much due to how well our overpriced, inferior competitor product they are selling is doing.



What brand?


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: drake89]
    #23719341 - 10/08/16 12:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
What brand?



My business partner is in charge of that end of the deal. He lets me know the gist of what goes on on his end, and vice versa. I'm just in charge of the mushroom/extraction side of things. I wish I could tell you, but I just don't know. I'll keep that question in mind for when I talk to him next.


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Edited by Stargate (10/08/16 12:35 PM)


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23720887 - 10/08/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

So do you plan on growing an ass load of reishi monotub or invitro? Or are you just doing mycellium? What species do you plan on doing?


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23721103 - 10/09/16 12:40 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yep, that's the idea. I'm growing a shitload of Reishi in monotubs, but am doing extractions on both the fruit and the mycelium. I'm also growing Cauliflower mushroom, and Red Banded Polypore, though I'm thinking of swapping that out for Lions Mane or Chaga, if I can get it to culture correctly on my birch substrate.

I'm thinking its best to dump the Red Banded Polypore, as after 3-4 months of daily doses, it can make people piss blood, hemorrhage, and some other nastiness. I can't just trust customers to stop taking it for 2 weeks at the 3 month point to let their cells recharge.

A standard version we may release as well, is Shiitake/Maitake/Reishi/CBD.

We have different formulas, for different goals.


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23740884 - 10/15/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Have you seen my reishi invitro bags? Using just 4-5 lbs of substrate in a XL .5 micron bag 20% bran 80% oak fuel pellets, made a bit on the wet side 65% moisture. You can make 3-5 hundred of em and stack em on wire shelving. I made like 14 of em and now have a large cardboard box filled with 1/2 lb bags of dried antlers. Its around 130-160 g dried per grow bag after 3 months when they hit the filter. You would need to make 3-400 bags depending on how potent your making the tincture. I know my 1oz bottles use about 1.2-1.8g worth of dry reishi each, so that means you need 80-120 lbs of dry fruit.  I'm just thinking all those monos are going to add up $$. Four bags is about the same as a mono and cost about $1.80 in bags with no cleaning when done, time is money. 







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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23740980 - 10/15/16 10:08 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gr0wer said:
Have you seen my reishi invitro bags? Using just 4-5 lbs of substrate in a XL .5 micron bag 20% bran 80% oak fuel pellets, made a bit on the wet side 65% moisture. You can make 3-5 hundred of em and stack em on wire shelving. I made like 14 of em and now have a large cardboard box filled with 1/2 lb bags of dried antlers. Its around 130-160 g dried per grow bag after 3 months when they hit the filter. You would need to make 3-400 bags depending on how potent your making the tincture. I know my 1oz bottles use about 1.2-1.8g worth of dry reishi each, so that means you need 80-120 lbs of dry fruit.  I'm just thinking all those monos are going to add up $$. Four bags is about the same as a mono and cost about $1.80 in bags with no cleaning when done, time is money. 









I hadn't seen those before. Thanks for posting about it! I'm currently trying monos with them, but I've got a pile of those bags. I'm going to try your method out, mostly for contam control. Thanks :smile:


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23743020 - 10/16/16 04:02 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

So you're making 5 figure deals with a publically traded company, youre growing in monotubs, and you post about it with several schedule 1 drugs in your signature?

WOW


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: drake89] * 1
    #23743147 - 10/16/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
So you're making 5 figure deals with a publically traded company, youre growing in monotubs, and you post about it with several schedule 1 drugs in your signature?

WOW



Yep. I originally was only interested in mushrooms due to not wanting to pay for shrooms, but than I actually fell in love with mycology, and got into growing medicinal mushrooms. I haven't actually grown the illegal kind in years now.

Going from hobby to business is a process of learning. My business partner needed someone who has an obsession with mushrooms, and I needed someone capable of getting me to a level I've never touched before. My signature may have the illegal kind, but I don't have a single gram of them anymore. I depend on people like you to help me learn, and point me in the right directions while I go through this process.

I'm technically out of my league here, but I've got the balls to go through with it, and give it all I've got.


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OfflineBillycrystal007
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23743950 - 10/16/16 09:19 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

So i have a question idk if this is where i post it but. Im having trouble keeping my cakes moist in my ecosphere tent thing i bought off midwest grow kits. I have a humidifier and heater plugged into my hygrowtherm. And have my cakes sitting on lids in moistish perlite. Why are all my cakes dry as hell and have blue dots? Id appreciate anyfeed back.


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Billycrystal007]
    #23744038 - 10/16/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Billycrystal007 said:
So i have a question idk if this is where i post it but. Im having trouble keeping my cakes moist in my ecosphere tent thing i bought off midwest grow kits. I have a humidifier and heater plugged into my hygrowtherm. And have my cakes sitting on lids in moistish perlite. Why are all my cakes dry as hell and have blue dots? Id appreciate anyfeed back.



Not really the right thread to post this, but the blue dots could be due to the lack of water from the sounds of it. Have you tried to dunk and case it? Perhaps you've got too much FAE causing it to dry out?


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23744247 - 10/16/16 11:35 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Stargate said:
Quote:

drake89 said:
So you're making 5 figure deals with a publically traded company, youre growing in monotubs, and you post about it with several schedule 1 drugs in your signature?

WOW



Yep. I originally was only interested in mushrooms due to not wanting to pay for shrooms, but than I actually fell in love with mycology, and got into growing medicinal mushrooms. I haven't actually grown the illegal kind in years now.

Going from hobby to business is a process of learning. My business partner needed someone who has an obsession with mushrooms, and I needed someone capable of getting me to a level I've never touched before. My signature may have the illegal kind, but I don't have a single gram of them anymore. I depend on people like you to help me learn, and point me in the right directions while I go through this process.

I'm technically out of my league here, but I've got the balls to go through with it, and give it all I've got.



well you don't sound like a space cadet, so take grower's advice and grow in bags.  ditch the tubs.  reishi are actually pretty fast and easy


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: drake89]
    #23744312 - 10/17/16 12:57 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Sounds good. I'll start using my bags more. After all, I've got a bunch of them.

Is reusing bags a good idea? I use an impulse sealer on the top of each one to seal them. If I cut a little off every time, perhaps I could use them about 5-8 times each? Maybe just chuck any that contam?


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23745174 - 10/17/16 10:43 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

You can but i wouldnt waste time dealing with used bags. And after 3 months the insides will be all gunked up with growth and spores. They cost a quarter each and grow hundreds of dollars worth of tincture matrial.


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23745348 - 10/17/16 11:49 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Awesome, thanks :smile:

Do you think I'll have any problems with the tincture being reduced down to half a tincture bottle's dropper worth of fluid per dose?


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Edited by Stargate (10/17/16 11:50 AM)


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23750537 - 10/18/16 10:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

The dose or are you talking about dilluting em? The dose should be a dropper or two full 1-3 times daily with food from my reaserch. Sure you can em to use less but it would be more in your interest to have the higher recommended dose so you get return customers faster.


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23750715 - 10/18/16 11:07 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Oh, I know. We currently have it set to 2 droppers a day. I'm just wondering how concentrated I can get the extracts without them turning to goo. Like, how many grams worth of mushroom can be concentrated in 1 dropper full.


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23750741 - 10/18/16 11:17 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Like maybe 2-3g per 1oz if you push it, it all has to do with how watery you make your extraction. Probably the best way to make it more concentrated would be use the minimum amount of vodka, just barely keeping it submerged. Then when you do your hot water, separate out your solids and keep reducing the liquids with heat, then do something like 2 parts alcohol extract 1 part hot water extract. I wouldn't go much further than that. What kind of vessels do you plan on doing this in? You would need some sort of food grade mechanical press to get all the liquids out your solids effectively. And i take it you have a USDA inspected commercial kitchen, as you will need one in almost every state when doing this process. And i just realized your planning on vacuum distilling? You realize you need the alcohol to keep it from going rancid? How many bottles have you actually made?


Edited by Gr0wer (10/18/16 11:19 PM)


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23756640 - 10/21/16 12:27 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

ahem...How many bottles have you actually made?


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23756662 - 10/21/16 12:41 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

So far, I've only been able to make 12K bottles. I'm having trouble fulfilling at the moment. I've been doing an alcohol and then hot water extraction, and leaving about 25% alcohol in the product. I've been evaporating them down, but I don't want to keep having to waste alcohol. I'm currently doing the extractions in 5 gallon wine fermenting bottles, which land at a local thrift shop weekly. I just sterilize them before using them. Once the order is through, we will be able to get new equipment for faster production. The vacuum distilling was an idea that I haven't followed through yet with. And yes, we do have a commercial kitchen. We were able to borrow it from another company that my business partner owns.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23756669 - 10/21/16 12:45 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Paying tax on that ethanol, ttb approval? 12k bottles of 25% ain't going unnoticed


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23756697 - 10/21/16 01:01 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

We found a company that sells undenatured alcohol. They had a program that guides you through the regulatory process efficiently. Its a pain to log everything, but its worth it.


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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23761039 - 10/22/16 01:55 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Yea but how does it taste? I used to be a flavor chemist, we had 190 proof ethanol for solutions. It was worse than everclear.


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InvisibleStargate
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23761213 - 10/22/16 03:04 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

To me, it tastes like if you put vodka and puke inside a coconut for a few weeks before taking a sip, but that's mostly because I can't stand the taste of mushrooms in the first place. The only thing that saves it for me, is the coconut taste.

Got any tips on how to make it taste better? I know almost nothing about flavor chemistry.


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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23762498 - 10/22/16 10:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Chaga or shiitake. Add them to the mix. Both also medicinal. If your using shiitake make sure its not the dried ones from china sprayed with chemicals.


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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23762854 - 10/23/16 12:00 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I've got 3 plates of Chaga growing right now. It grows sooo slow compared the the Reishi. I need to get some Shittake. Should probably find if anyone is trading for it, or giving out samples. I feel that if I cultured it from the grocery store fruits, the mycelium aggressiveness would be shit.


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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Stargate]
    #23772998 - 10/26/16 11:17 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Where I am pure 95% ethanol is about 40 euros a liter, so we go to France where it is only 10 euros a liter.

Still for most tinctures I use ethanol denatured with 5% diethyl ether. The ether isn't really toxic in the amounts used in tinctures, it just smells and tastes bad. The difference is that it is only 20 euros for a gallon.

If you want to fractionally distill your own 95% ethanol, consider buying bulk amounts of cheap hobo-type wine, and proceeding from there, that is if you've got the nessecary equipment.


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: hjalmar]
    #23775211 - 10/26/16 11:27 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Chaga just find a good hunter off ebay thats selling it and make a huge order. Its cheap. I got like 2 lbs and i still have some chunks. One thing with chaga is its a PITA to break up. Its like a rock.


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Offlineomnifarious
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Re: Bulk ethanol [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23786125 - 10/30/16 04:24 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

if youre in the states,  PM me. I have family members that work for a large (you know them) distribution center that can get wholesale ethanol for ~$1/l at barrel quantity. Shipping is a killer though, so its almost always easier to find someone local


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