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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinemorrowasted
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Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted
    #23662112 - 09/20/16 03:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Utilitarianism (in its original form), the brainchild of John Stuart Mill, is possibly the most immature formal system of ethics ever attempted: "One ought to do that which causes the most possible pleasure for the greatest possible number of people." If Mill had actually had enough life experience to be able to have learned as much, he would have been forgetting, in claiming so, that the experience of pleasure is in-formed by the experience of pain; that is to say, that the quality and degree of one's experience of pleasure partially depends upon the quality of degree of one's prior experiences of pain. This is the underlying wisdom in the commonly used but usually misunderstood phrase, "All good things must come to an end." This isn't simply a cynical worldview. It's an observation of the fact that in order for thing A to STAY good, it must eventually be balanced out by not-quite-so-good thing B to remind you of just what was so good about thing A to begin with.


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: morrowasted]
    #23662119 - 09/20/16 03:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Poll:
Do you think Pure Utilitarianism is a sensible system of ethics?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (09/20/16 03:23 PM) to (No end specified)
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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: morrowasted]
    #23662124 - 09/20/16 03:25 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

not at all, when considering what represents the ultimate good one could also take into account whatever pain allotment was necessary in order to enjoy said good.

I mean as a guiding principle its fine, in literal direct practice there's all kinds of issues since what defines highest good across a society and all that is so subjective

I consider myself to be somewhat utilitarian and/or epicurean however


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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: morrowasted]
    #23662131 - 09/20/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Poll
Which of the following ethical systems seems the most sensible to you?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (09/20/16 03:28 PM) to (No end specified)
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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: Ezuma]
    #23662137 - 09/20/16 03:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ezuma said:
not at all, when considering what represents the ultimate good one could also take into account whatever pain allotment was necessary in order to enjoy said good.

I mean as a guiding principle its fine, in literal direct practice there's all kinds of issues since what defines highest good across a society and all that is so subjective

I consider myself to be somewhat utilitarian and/or epicurean however



Are you suggesting that part of the decision making, in determining what causes the most possible pleasure for the most people, ought to include the intentionally prescribed infliction of pain? Doesn't that seem rather convoluted? Who would be the arbiter of such a system?


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: morrowasted]
    #23662352 - 09/20/16 04:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

that's the problem with it of course
but I think there's enough inescapable pain in life that we wouldn't need to falsely introduce any, I mean people would still have to work, there'd still be illness, accidents, heartbreak, drug problems, murder, abuse etc in any system


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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: Ezuma]
    #23662780 - 09/20/16 07:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Fair enough, but I still think maximizing pleasure is a short-sighted way of approaching ethics. Have you heard of Preference Utilitarianism?


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: morrowasted]
    #23662795 - 09/20/16 07:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

have you considered uSTALanriasm?  Seems like a good answer.


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: morrowasted]
    #23662837 - 09/20/16 07:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

your argument is like saying in order to enjoy eating you need to starve. no, you just need to not eat some of the time :shrug:


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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: quinn]
    #23662884 - 09/20/16 07:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Nihilism.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Pure Utilitarianism is immature and shortsighted [Re: morrowasted]
    #23663537 - 09/20/16 10:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Fair enough, but I still think maximizing pleasure is a short-sighted way of approaching ethics. Have you heard of Preference Utilitarianism?




short sighted? Not at all. I think a distinction has to be made between maximizing pleasure sustainably and simply maximizing pleasure initially. I also think preference Utilitarianism sounds alright, I am of the belief that individuals should have freedoms in determining what constitutes their own highest good, within reason for sure, but the framework of society/the state should be built and maintained with the general goal of the common good. So say deal with disparity of wealth, ensure a certain level of education and job training, but allow individuals some freedom within that structure as having choices and a degree of autonomy in and of itself is beneficial to happiness imo


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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