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lvnthalife
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whats going on here
#23661359 - 09/20/16 11:12 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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This tub was made from forgotten jars. It was fully colonized when i applied a casing layer.
It has been in fruiting conditions for almost two weeks and completely ate the casing but still no pins.
Should i be worried or give it more time?
Also whats the concensus on applying a second casing?
UPDATE
More pins from overlay

I was in time to catch one breaking through
Update
The sub is drying out i think. Turning slightly yellow in spots
Edited by lvnthalife (10/01/16 02:01 PM)
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concretelush
shadow cast light mass



Registered: 08/22/16
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Whatever it is it doesn't look good, some sort of contaminate in there. I wouldn't case it again either.
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Boogieman47
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Ya looks ugly man it may burst into trich flames soon keep an eye on it and first sign of trich take it and toss it
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Kenetic
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Wanna tell us about your casing method?
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CosmoKramer
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Kenetic]
#23661639 - 09/20/16 12:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Bacterial. Agreeing with others that a second casing won't save it or do anything other than feed whatever contam that is.
-------------------- "Get yourself some vitamin C with rose hips and bioflavonoids."
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lvnthalife
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Its just cvg casing
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lvnthalife
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I figured it was bacterial. It was old jars that i used instead of tossing.
Thought it would at least throw out a few fruits though.
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mushboy
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Re: whats going on here [Re: lvnthalife] 1
#23661690 - 09/20/16 01:03 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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if it were me ...especially with forgotten jars.. id give all the FAE possible and toss the poly. something 2 weeks is going to get funky quick.
so get more FAE in there.. worse case it gets contam and toss(it will anyway lookin like that:()
or the boost in fae will give yuo a suprise
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Kenetic
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Re: whats going on here [Re: mushboy]
#23661700 - 09/20/16 01:07 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I wouldn't consider cvg a casing. It's actually just more sub, which explains why it's so colonized. Good that you covered the spawn grains though, but I would have done that at spawning.
I'd give it more time.
-------------------- Todo Cambia    DMT said: Everyone know's me, they just don't know it yet
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Kenetic]
#23661824 - 09/20/16 01:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I planned on letting it go and seeing what happens.
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Thedenthead



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What's the longest you can let a WBS fully colonized jar sit?
-------------------- Nothing but my meandering thoughts.
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Boogieman47
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??? Depends how what it looks like i can tell you that shit will have to be cut out with a knife if left for a few weeks
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mushboy
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Quote:
Thedenthead said: What's the longest you can let a WBS fully colonized jar sit?
after 100% five days.
came home to invitros...weighted in at 3.5g on the dot.
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Inocuole
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Re: whats going on here [Re: mushboy]
#23661924 - 09/20/16 02:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said:
Quote:
Thedenthead said: What's the longest you can let a WBS fully colonized jar sit?
after 100% five days.
came home to invitros...weighted in at 3.5g on the dot.
That is specific as fuck. And also wrong. I've had jars sitting for a month that still look usable.. The longer they sit, the less usable they are, but if it was particularly clean it could balance out to about average after a few weeks.
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JacobStorm
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Re: whats going on here [Re: mushboy]
#23661934 - 09/20/16 02:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Op are you in a good position to toss that outside? I've had great luck doing that with fucked substrates.
-------------------- Rogger Rabbits Mushroom growing videos Ethnobotanical garden forum Inocuole tea TEK azur said: If you like 6th grade results, then 6th grade projects are great.
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JacobStorm
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23661941 - 09/20/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: but if it was particularly clean it could balance out to about average after a few weeks.
Care to elaborate on this Inoc?
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Inocuole
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In what way? Grain jars are all on a timer, but that timer is exponential. If you have very little bacteria in a grain jar, it will grow very slowly and may take a few weeks to catch up to the point that a normal grain jar might reach 4-5 days after full colonization. Of course this can't be counted on, but I've seen plenty of good results come from month old spawn around here.
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lvnthalife
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I could toss it outside but im still going to give it a little more time.
Whats you opinion on that tub Inocuole?
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Boogieman47
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If its clean you could still get an average grow nothing spectacular
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Inocuole
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Quote:
lvnthalife said: I could toss it outside but im still going to give it a little more time.
Whats you opinion on that tub Inocuole?
Same as anybody's. Bacterial, may fruit, may potentially not.
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JacobStorm
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23661978 - 09/20/16 02:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh I see. Yeah I didnt catch that from what you said thanks
-------------------- Rogger Rabbits Mushroom growing videos Ethnobotanical garden forum Inocuole tea TEK azur said: If you like 6th grade results, then 6th grade projects are great.
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Thedenthead



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Alright good to know. I had a quart jar fully colonize about 12 days ago and have 3 more finishing this week. Didn't wanna ruin my other 3 with it spawning.
-------------------- Nothing but my meandering thoughts.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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lvnthalife
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Update
I isolated the tub away from the others.
There is a pin growing from underneath the surface. Is this possibly overlay?
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Kenetic
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I don't know what it is, but your sub surface looks fucked
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Kenetic]
#23675209 - 09/24/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
kenetic said: I don't know what it is, but your sub surface looks fucked
Thats why I put it in the garage. Im going to dispose of it tomorrow.
Just wanted share the latest picture of it.
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Inocuole
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Quote:
lvnthalife said: Update
I isolated the tub away from the others.
There is a pin growing from underneath the surface. Is this possibly overlay?

Holy shit... that... appears to be overlay. What the fuck? Knowing cubensis don't do that on their own, that has to be contaminated as FUCK.
Let it go for science.
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23675270 - 09/24/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ill let it go for science then.
I quickly realized it was at least a little bit bacterial. I thought it was going to trich out but it hasnt.
This tub was exposed to extreme temperature swings due to unforseen circumstances. Highs 95-98 or 99 degrees Fahrenheit and lows 58-around 70.
Maybe that allowed the bacteria to get a huge foothold over the mycellium...
Anyway, i just wanted to share.
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Inocuole
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I only say let it go because so far it doesn't seem to be moldy, or, at least if it is, it doesn't seem to have sporulated. I'd definitely isolate it any from any other projects. But I'm also curious to see if other pins poke through the surface.
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23683714 - 09/27/16 04:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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UPDATE

More pins growing from underneath the overlay
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morty422
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Inocuole
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Re: whats going on here [Re: morty422]
#23684204 - 09/27/16 07:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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WHY ISN'T ANYONE POSTING IN HERE? OP are you SURE this is cubensis? It looks a lot more like panaeolus.
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23684223 - 09/27/16 07:08 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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100% SURE
I wonder how many pins will come through...
Its sounds stupid im sure but i thought about taking a sample of the overlay and putting it to agar. Just curiosity.
I dont think it would have fruited well to begin with being that they were abused bacterial jars but the pins coming through seem healthy enough
Im not an expert though
Afterthought: is it possible while overlay is "bad"(lack off better way to put it), its possibly not as detrimental as with Pan.Cyans and others ive read about?
Again, not an expert
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Edited by lvnthalife (09/27/16 07:13 PM)
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Inocuole
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Well overlay is bad whenever it happens but cubes just don't really get it. In fact seeing the word overlay so many times in a post is giving me a nervous tic.
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23684303 - 09/27/16 07:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: In fact seeing the word overlay so many times in a post is giving me a nervous tic.
Haha that actually made me laugh.
Excuse my ignorance but what do you mean by cubes dont really get it?
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Inocuole
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Overlay is a state where the myc colonizes over the pinning platform and the pinset forms underneath. This means the pins either have to burst up through it or abort. Usually they abort. Overlay is species dependant and cubes is not a species that develops it.
Overlay with pan cyan, the casing is about a half inch under the mat.

You can see the pins forming under the overlay in a few open spots. It's something you will never see with cubes.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Overlay is bullshit and most of it relates to a picture of a normal casing layer in TMC that is incorrectly labeled as overlay.
A few months ago, I 'jokingly' said I'd ban the next person who asked an overlay question and it worked . . .until now. 
What happens is one person asks about overlay, and for the next six months, every new grower thinks he has overlay.
I can guarantee you don't have it, since I've only seen it a handful of times, and I've been known to have grown a few projects in my day. Full colonization of the casing layer is not overlay. Give lots of fresh air and light, while misting a few times daily and you'll fruit soon. RR
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
maverick187 said: We know that high CO2 levels, incorrect temps, etc causes overlay.
Not hardly. I've only seen overlay once or twice in 40 years. If you wish to describe what you're seeing, we can help diagnose it, but I can almost guarantee that you're not seeing overlay. RR
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: By definition, a bulk substrate can't get 'overlay'.
Unless my eyes are deceiving me, there's a shit ton of hyphal knots all over that surface. I'd wrinkle up a piece of wax paper, and then flatten it mostly back out and lay over the top of the tray. Lift it to fan and/or mist of course. RR
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23684374 - 09/27/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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That picture looks just like my tub...
If thats not what it is, given they are busting out from underneath and not off the surface, what is it
Just taking a prime opportunity to learn about something i have never encounterd until now. Knowledge is an important tool.
Also, i have read all those posts from RR and others. Hence my thread title and my questions.
Im very skeptic on the point of having a tub of cubes with overlay.
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Inocuole
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The mycelium there REALLY looks like panaeolus myc more than cubensis. I don't really know what to say other than that..
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dankington
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23684399 - 09/27/16 07:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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So I'm going with Inoc's conclusion. We know that Cubensis do not produce Overlay (at worst they colonize the casing). Being as we know Cubes not to Overlay, we have to look at secondary signals for diagnosis. The thick, cottage cheese like growths (where distinguishing growths becomes difficult to identify), where growths appear less linear/organized, you have wound up with essentially a yoga mat of mycelium/bacterial mycelium covering most all of the sub. IMLE this would result in somewhere around a 30% BE. So, about 1/4-1/3oz per quart of spawned (give or take.) Sorry dude.
Edited by dankington (09/27/16 08:21 PM)
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Inocuole
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I've just never seen cubensis myc become so perfectly bacterial that it looks like THAT. All kinds of other shit usually starts happening before that point would be possible. Compare it to Pasty's pic of pan overlay and it's uncanny.
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dankington
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23684424 - 09/27/16 08:08 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm literally in shock that there is no visible mold. Not even white fluffy shit.
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lvnthalife
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The yeild doesnt really matter.
It was going to be thrown out anyway but i decided to let it go.
Regardless i will post a few more pictures as the fruits develop just because.
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Inocuole
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The fruits should help identify whats going on, so definitely do.
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Kenetic
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23684678 - 09/27/16 09:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well let this thread be one for the records. Adding it to my list at least.
-------------------- Todo Cambia    DMT said: Everyone know's me, they just don't know it yet
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morty422
Wuba-luba-dub-dub!



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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23686502 - 09/28/16 12:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: The fruits should help identify whats going on, so definitely do.
Possibility that vendor mislabeled a syringe?
I do not think OP has stated how he got to this point...if it was an old MS>Grain grow..........maybe?
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: morty422]
#23687091 - 09/28/16 02:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have never used a syringe or a vendor. All my prints have come from trades/giveaways.
This particular print is from a well known member who im not going to name.
They are Texans the same as the first time i used the print.
Im not saying its not possibly something other than cubes but i had no problems with the print last time and i never had any prints other than cubes until the tub was already made. The jars themselves were around for a while before the tub was made.
The jars actually were in a box that got moved to our new house and were forgotten about.
EDIT
For those interested and havnt seen them yet i added a few pictures last night to the OP
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Edited by lvnthalife (09/28/16 03:02 PM)
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morty422
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If you are 100% sure it's cubensis mycelium then my next idea is that it is an incredibly bacterial substrate that looks completely and totally uniform.
Cubes don't get overlay. They just don't.
Keep us posted. If it is some sort of mold that is just about to sporulate or something than that thing is going to EXPLODE soon.... 
This is a very interesting thread..
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: morty422]
#23697533 - 10/01/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Updated OP
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JacobStorm
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Hey they finally showed up. I was rooting for you dude
-------------------- Rogger Rabbits Mushroom growing videos Ethnobotanical garden forum Inocuole tea TEK azur said: If you like 6th grade results, then 6th grade projects are great.
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Mad Season
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Those are undoubtedly cubensis. Haha at the overlay. Cubensis still pins through it like a boss. I still think there's something else in there. Cubensis often overtakes panaeolus species. Cubensis is aggressive af tbh
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morty422
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Well-sheeyit...

I can't believe it.
Saving this thread for sure..
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Inocuole
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Re: whats going on here [Re: morty422]
#23698252 - 10/01/16 08:01 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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That is definitely not 100% cubensis, but the fruits are. The mycelium.. there is just no way.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23698516 - 10/01/16 09:49 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ikr it has to be something else in there. That is way too fluffy for cubensis
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lvnthalife
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There is nothing else in there besides bacteria
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Mad Season
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Re: whats going on here [Re: lvnthalife] 2
#23698547 - 10/01/16 10:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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And that's because you took a sample and put it under the scope? Or is that just a statement made with nothing to back it up?
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lvnthalife
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Well the mycelium on top bruises blue. Ill add a pic later.
I just dont think its likely to be any other mushroom mycelium besides contaminated cubensis.
Im sure it would be possible that the coir had other mushroom spores that survived pasteurization.
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amidogen
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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 10:47 AM)
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JacobStorm
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Re: whats going on here [Re: amidogen] 1
#23700316 - 10/02/16 01:42 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
amidogen said: Yes. You're right. Your tub is the exception to every rule and clearly all of these experienced cultivators are just thrown off because your tub is so special and breaks all the rules.
And yes, the top bruising blue completely backs up your assertion. Stick to your guns. Mad and Inoc don't even know how to shroom. You've got this 
This feel unnecessary. Might wanna stay out of it
-------------------- Rogger Rabbits Mushroom growing videos Ethnobotanical garden forum Inocuole tea TEK azur said: If you like 6th grade results, then 6th grade projects are great.
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amidogen
see you on the other side

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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 10:47 AM)
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JacobStorm
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Re: whats going on here [Re: amidogen]
#23700372 - 10/02/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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There is a possibility their wrong. Just wait and see and behave your self in the meantime
-------------------- Rogger Rabbits Mushroom growing videos Ethnobotanical garden forum Inocuole tea TEK azur said: If you like 6th grade results, then 6th grade projects are great.
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amidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 10:48 AM)
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dankington
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Re: whats going on here [Re: amidogen]
#23700393 - 10/02/16 02:03 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Bruising can be the result of many types of trauma. You must also take into consideration anastomosis.
Pussyfart (back when he wasn't a hacker) had gotten a spores 101 syringe. As has happened to many of us that've gotten their products, he had oysters infest his cubensis cakes.
Mudafuka had oysters that would bruise blue.
Substrates that get too dry, and then are over watered to make up for it often bruise too.
[edit: another example I just realized, I've heard of people getting blobs of mycogone that will also bruise blue. I've heard they were extremely potent too.]
It's entirely possible there is white mold that has intertwined with cube myc to the point it bruises too. I've not seen it happen, but there is evidence to support the possibility. It could 'just be bacteria', but as Mad pointed out, without a microscope, making that assumption is simply just that; an assumption.
Edited by dankington (10/03/16 07:03 AM)
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lvnthalife
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Re: whats going on here [Re: amidogen]
#23700400 - 10/02/16 02:05 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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If your referring to me i dont recall ever saying anyone was wrong. All this entire thread has been about is letting the tub continue and see what happens instead of being thrown out.
As for it being another type of mycelium, it is possible. I just dont think its likely.
I didnt own another species until after the fact. The same dishes were used for multiple transfers and jars. The tub made before this one turned out fine.
As i stated before, I THINK that it is due extreme temperature fluctuations that caused serious condensation and bacterial jars there were old and abused.
Again, im not an expert.
To concede to any point without any discussion, updates, or notes would completely defeat the purpose of letting the tub continue.
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Re: whats going on here [Re: amidogen]
#23700413 - 10/02/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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I had the very similar contamination (above) recently. This was my first effort growing with coir in monotubs, and the sub was coir/verm (no gypsum). At first I thought it was some kind of overlay-ish growth of the mycelium such as I'd not seen before, but later as it began to develop dark spots (and sort of bluish - visible in photo) it was clearly a contaminant. As you can see some mushrooms grew out of it. My tub was not overly old as lvnthalife describes, rather I believe it came from one or more of the following vectors:
*Vermiculite was not cooked but was mixed in to balance moisture. *Hot tap water (~165F) was used instead of boiling water. *Unfiltered air supply in grow room.
I've corrected all of those problems and have not seen this since.
I don't have the The Mushroom Cultivator here, but in the contamination section there are a number of white contaminants. There is one called "white plaster mold" (I forget the scientific name). If you work through Stamets's contamination key then you might be able to identify this.
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dankington
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mycogone? lecanicillium fungicola (aka vert)?
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Poking around a bit, yes, I'd say its Mycogone I had, and the OP has the same problem. Not Scopulariopsis (White Plaster Mold).
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Mad Season
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I can name 5 molds off the top of my head that will show blue bruising when in the presence of cubensis. Not to mention all the fluffy myc mushroom species that cubensis can destroy that also bruises blue.
I'm definitely not convinced it isn't a mold based off bruising. If this was under the scope, I'd stfu.
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lvnthalife
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If i had a scope i would use it...
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Mad Season
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Haha it's ok. This is just contamination ID, one of my favorite aspects of mycology. You have fruits already coming in, so whether it's bacteria or a white contamination in there, you're still going to get edible fruits.
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lvnthalife
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Im just really curious as to what it is
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Quote:
Mad Season said: I can name 5 molds off the top of my head that will show blue bruising when in the presence of cubensis.
That's interesting! So, why do the molds bruise blue? Are they assimilating the psilocin in the cubensis mycelium, and so we are seeing the oxidation of psilocin in the white mold? Or do these molds bruise blue by other chemical mechanism?
Although I can't be totally sure, but based on comparing it to other photos here on the shroomery, I'd say I had Mycogone, and it looks real similar to lvnthalife's photos. The bruising appeared to me to be the cubensis mycelium stressed by the parasitism of the mold, and the bruising was greyish blue actually.
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Mad Season
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Everyone here has probably had epic shrooms with absolutely no bruising. Bruising is not psilocin. It's most likely just a pigment changing color as the enzymes/metabolites digest things. In this case, a mold.
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lvnthalife
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My most potent so far barely bruised. I have some right now that bruise super dark real quick but their only of moderate potency
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Mad Season
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I've had some epic bruisers literally destroy people, and same with non bruisers. I've actually had more potent non bruisers than bruisers now that I think about it. In reality it's the exact same as flipping a coin lol
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dankington
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Man, I really wish we could get some conclusive studies done. Like I could swear the buggers that bruise green make me balls to the wall in a different way. I remember Adden saying that was baeocystin degradation. But all we can do is speculate. Also, there is likely another ingredient, because there are inactives that bruise too. Like mudafuka's oysters I'd mentioned. Those bruised, but weren't active.
edit: credit where credit's due
Edited by dankington (10/03/16 08:50 AM)
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lvnthalife
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I really want to cut the sub in half and see what it looks like inside...
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Kenetic
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I doubt you'd be impressed
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Kenetic]
#23701527 - 10/02/16 08:26 PM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Probably not
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Mr.Caterpillar
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>I really want to cut the sub in half and see what it looks like inside...
I always find such autopsies informative.
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Quote:
Mad Season said: Everyone here has probably had epic shrooms with absolutely no bruising. Bruising is not psilocin. It's most likely just a pigment changing color as the enzymes/metabolites digest things. In this case, a mold.
All cubensis I've grown bruised blue - some more than others. There are psilocybes that don't bruise blue, but the most potent, such as Azurescens, stain very dark blue.
The common explanation is that the bruising is due to the oxidation of psilocin/psilocybin. Wikipedia cites Stamets on that:
Quote:
The blue-staining species of Psilocybe are characterized by the presence of psilocin and psilocybin. This blue-staining reaction occurs after the fruit body has been injured, particularly near the base of the stalk.[19] This reaction is thought to be due to the oxidation of psilocybin after the outer surface of the fruit body has been breached.[20] The degree of bluing in a Psilocybe fruit body roughly correlates with the concentration of psilocin in the mushroom.[21]
I don't think that any of the white molds; mycogone, scopulariopsis, sepedonium, etc. stain blue on their own. If a blue staining is taking place when they are present in cubensis culture it is because the cubensis mycelium is being injured by the contaminant and what you are seeing is the cubensis mycelium turning blue. Or are the molds assimilating the tryptamines?
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Quote:
dankington said: Man, I really wish we could get some conclusive studies done. Like I could swear the buggers that bruise green make me balls to the wall in a different way. I remember Adden saying that was baeocystin degradation. But all we can do is speculate. Also, there is likely another ingredient, because there are inactives that bruise too. Like pussyfart's oysters I'd mentioned. Those bruised, but weren't active.
If you look up info on Ehrlich's reagent (p-DMAB)you may come across some colorimetric keys for the indole alkaloids ('indole' derives from 'indigo') used in forensics. All the various tryptamines show up in different shades of blue to violet, baeocystin notable for its aquamarine shade. Some cubes are high in Baeocystin and bruise more greenish. In TLC these alkaloids will fluoresce blue, and LSD is known to show up blue under UVA (so scumbags add quinine to their bunk bottles since quinine also fluoresces blue).
Some types of Boletes stain blue also, and there are other mushrooms, russulas I think, but the chemistry is different in each case.
Anyway, we've gone off topic!
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Inocuole
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Stamets has said a lot of false shit,( colonizing in the dark, 86F optimal temp, etc) so quoting him won't do much good around here.
The fact that I've had this exact experience:
Quote:
Mad Season said: I've had some epic bruisers literally destroy people, and same with non bruisers. I've actually had more potent non bruisers than bruisers now that I think about it. In reality it's the exact same as flipping a coin lol
Basically makes most of that "Actives = bruising" nonsense just that... nonsense. Where was the bruising on my most potent fruits ever grown? Why don't my PE bruise very much even when they're strong enough to make people shit their pants? Until those questions can be answered definitively I'm going to stick with thinking it's a crock of shit.
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23702437 - 10/03/16 04:35 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: Stamets has said a lot of false shit,( colonizing in the dark, 86F optimal temp, etc) so quoting him won't do much good around here.
The fact that I've had this exact experience:
Quote:
Mad Season said: I've had some epic bruisers literally destroy people, and same with non bruisers. I've actually had more potent non bruisers than bruisers now that I think about it. In reality it's the exact same as flipping a coin lol
Basically makes most of that "Actives = bruising" nonsense just that... nonsense. Where was the bruising on my most potent fruits ever grown? Why don't my PE bruise very much even when they're strong enough to make people shit their pants? Until those questions can be answered definitively I'm going to stick with thinking it's a crock of shit.
I have immense respect for Paul Stamets. Hard for me to fathom why any mushroom freak wouldn't, although he's not infallible.
I think the 86F refers to running in composted substrates. My experience is that in phased leached cow manure beds substrate temperatures can naturally climb into the high 90s, and you want to avoid it going over 100 since the thermophiles will get the upper hand in the core of the bed and kill the cubensis mycelium in the center, weakening the crop. For that sort of technique, spawn running temperatures are measured from the substrate, not air temperature.
I attended a Stamets lecture on psilocybes a couple of years ago, and he gave a more nuanced explanation of the bluing reaction. I'm sorry to say I don't retain the details of his explanation, but it was more complex than simply oxidation of psilocin. Now my curiosity is piqued - I'll look into it further.
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Mad Season
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Do you really want me to quote a huge page of text dude? I just woke up too... 
No cubensis substrates don't thrive at 86, even internally. Internally they thrive at temps of 75-81. When in a bulk substrate this means an outside temp of 70-75 tops, due to thermogenesis.
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: I've been saying that for years. My petri dish studies a few years ago showed that cubensis reaches peak linear growth between 75F and 80F, then is flat until 83F, where it starts to slow down. Mycelium at 86F is growing at about 2/3 the speed of mycelium at 80F. In addition, the higher temps tend to stimulate thermophic molds and bacteria.
There's LOT'S of good information in TMC, but that 86F figure is one of the errors. RR
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: It was all posted on the other board. I don't know if the threads are still there or not. Bottom line was the tubs that had petri dishes between 75F and 81F showed no difference in growth. Below 75F, and above 81F growth slowed down, with a rapid drop in colonization speed below 70F and above 83F. At 86F, a petri dish would be 2/3 colonized, while its sister at 75F would be fully colonized. Rate of growth at 86F was exactly the same as rate of growth at 72F, with fastest growth as said, occurring between 75F and 81F.
Note that these tests were for linear growth in the two dimensional plane of a petri dish. In three dimensonal space such as in grain jars or bulk substrates, the effects of thermogenesis need to be considered, so ambient temps should be lowered slightly to compensate. RR
Quote:
Mr.Caterpillar said: All cubensis I've grown bruised blue - some more than others. There are psilocybes that don't bruise blue, but the most potent, such as Azurescens, stain very dark blue.
Why do people always come back to this to prove potency and bruising are related?
Quote:
Mad Season said:
Quote:
Homesteader said: veryy cute! please explain to me further about the experiments you've conducted on the correlation between bluing and constituent active compounds?? Is it coincidental then that azures bruise extremely blue and are also the strongest variety?

They can also barely bruise and still rock...
Quote:
The common explanation is that the bruising is due to the oxidation of psilocin/psilocybin. Wikipedia cites Stamets on that:
Quote:
The blue-staining species of Psilocybe are characterized by the presence of psilocin and psilocybin. This blue-staining reaction occurs after the fruit body has been injured, particularly near the base of the stalk.[19] This reaction is thought to be due to the oxidation of psilocybin after the outer surface of the fruit body has been breached.[20] The degree of bluing in a Psilocybe fruit body roughly correlates with the concentration of psilocin in the mushroom.[21]
I don't think that any of the white molds; mycogone, scopulariopsis, sepedonium, etc. stain blue on their own. If a blue staining is taking place when they are present in cubensis culture it is because the cubensis mycelium is being injured by the contaminant and what you are seeing is the cubensis mycelium turning blue. Or are the molds assimilating the tryptamines?
Well that's wrong with absolutely no evidence to back it up. The popular explanation was the earth was flat many years ago. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's true. First off cubensis mycelium has almost no actives, so if it's bruising hella blue with no psilocin present, explain that. Secondly, there are quinones in cubensis.
When cubensis enzymes digest things, they also digest cubensis itself. This causes bruising in not only this species, but every species that bruises, even the non-actice ones. Perhaps it's a different pigment the enzymes are digesting, but this is undoubtably a pigment getting digested along with the mold said enzymes are attempting to digest.
Quote:
Mad Season said:
 stamets made a completely baseless statement with absolutely no evidence to back it up. You could have dug around much more than that dude. Cmon now.
Quote:
Mad Season said: IMO you just gotta try it all out yourself mate. Personally I've never done much light experiments besides prolonged direct sunlight. Which when done well has some very healthy looking fruits.
Pretty much everything involving bruising is up for debate because we don't have the equipment to test what sorts of shit is causing it. This post sums it up nicely. A psilocin solution does oxidize blue, but many indoles, amino acids, and enzymes in mushrooms that don't have psilocin but still bruise are inside cubensis mushrooms. Which actually could explain why there's different colors of bruising too.
Witch's hat for example bruises black because of L-DOPA, while boletes blue because of enzymes breaking down variegatic acid. Much like how cubensis enzymes are responsible for the breakdown of psilocin and psilocybin. Ive even seen it bruise green, I'd love to know if it's because of a different chemical.
The basic shit like fruiting conditions and surface area have already been covered, but a lot of the chemistry, and whatnot still needs a lot more research.
Read this carefully. Including the link I linked.
Some of the most potent psilocybes barely even bruise.. bruising is DEFINITELY NOT a way to indicate potency.
Quote:
Mad Season said:
Quote:
mogur said: Bluing of non active Boletes, as RR mentioned, and non-bluing of some psilos, seems to go against the common belief that it is due to psilocin oxidation. However, right now, I have to toss my hat in with this 'urban legend'. Here's quote from Tom Volks about the bluing reaction in Boletes [check the cool bluing video on that page]-
Quote:
The blueing reaction is easily explained through biochemistry. A compound called variegatic acid remains colorless unless it is exposed to oxygen. The cell walls of Gyroporus cyanescens are easily broken, exposing the variegatic acid to the air. The oxygenase enzyme converts the variegatic acid to its quinone methide, which is blue. Interestingly, in many other boletes, in the absence of oxygen, variegatic acid is converted to variegatorubin, which is responsible to the red color found in many members of this group.
Chemists have tried to identify the chemical responsible for the blue color in psilos, and suprisingly haven't been able to pin it down. A quinone is a likely candidate for this pigment also, since their their alternating single and double bonds trap certain wavelengths. However, that will be determined by some future study.
Lol amazing what you can find on here. It's obviously a pigment involved here. Just like variegatic acid or L-DOPA.
Edited by Mad Season (10/03/16 09:36 AM)
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JacobStorm
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Re: whats going on here [Re: Inocuole]
#23702980 - 10/03/16 09:55 AM (7 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said:
Basically makes most of that "Actives = bruising" nonsense just that... nonsense. Where was the bruising on my most potent fruits ever grown? Why don't my PE bruise very much even when they're strong enough to make people shit their pants? Until those questions can be answered definitively I'm going to stick with thinking it's a crock of shit.
 There are even deadly poisonous mushrooms that bruise blue and are not active in anyway.
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Kenetic
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Holy shit. That's a lot of info for someone that just woke up. Thanks!
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Mr.Caterpillar
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Mad Season,
Thanks for all the info. So potency in psilocybe mushrooms and bluing reaction do not have a direct correlation, and the mechanism of bluing is not fully understood. Got it!
Quote:
No cubensis substrates don't thrive at 86, even internally. Internally they thrive at temps of 75-81. When in a bulk substrate this means an outside temp of 70-75 tops, due to thermogenesis.
Mad, have you done much growing on composted substrates? By that I mean manure (or synthetic compost) that's been phase 2 pasteurized. Have you tried that technique? Its the technique outlined in great detail in The Mushroom Cultivator, and (IMO) the best way to grow large quantities of shrooms. I've grown this way quite a bit, and my experience is that cubensis mycelium THRIVES in the 80s and 90s F, and it does so naturally. Try to make it stay down in the 70s in its Shroomery approved optimum range and you'll dry out the beds with too much air flow. Instead, let the mycelium do its thing and watch it soar up to the 90s as it reaches peak biological activity and fully seizes the poo beds. Then, once the beds are fully colonized, you'll witness another thing that is considered bullshit here on this forum, but actually isn't: temperature drop. Once the beds have fully colonized then they stop growing and the internal temperature drops by ~10 deg - time to fruit!
As you know, Cubensis is considered both a primary and secondary decomposer. In nature it acts as a secondary decomposer inhabiting dung that has already been broken down by thermophiles. In cultivation it can grow on a variety of non-composted substrates and acts as a primary decomposer. My view is that Cubensis behaves quite differently on composted vs. non-composted substrates. So, while your views may be very correct for growing in monotubs on coir, they may not hold true for a much larger composted substrate.
Edited by Mr.Caterpillar (10/03/16 02:49 PM)
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Mad Season
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Heat makes things dry out more. Common evaporation lol.
I have had outdoor grows here in Canada when nights were dropping down to 35-40F. Days were not even higher than 65.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21856836
I live in a desert tundra too as you can see by the caps. I only had to water twice a week.
Perhaps when it's colder you just don't have as much rain? Idk but technically colder should not make things dry out quicker.
Btw I grow with pure hpoo lol.
Edited by Mad Season (10/03/16 03:12 PM)
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Kenetic
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That's pretty cool. Too bad I can't rate you again lol
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Mr.Caterpillar
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"Dry out the beds" is sort of a sloppy way of putting it - my bad. What I mean is that the cropping surface will dry out with too much air flow, and that can happen even in a very humid room.
Nice work on the out of climate outdoors grow! We used to take the spent beds (after 2nd or 3rd flush) and lay them down in the garden and cover them with straw. I don't live in a tropical zone either, but they'd do well in the Summer and Fall here and sometimes seeming to rejuvenate outdoors and produce some nice flushes. I wish I took more pictures then, but I have this:

Gills are white because its a sporeless strain. We always watered them with used dish water. They never seemed to mind at all!
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