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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: qman]
    #23661062 - 09/20/16 09:22 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Distractions are just a bonus, care to address every single other reason, for which there are explicit monied interests?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23661086 - 09/20/16 09:32 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It seems to me, that discussions over military matters always get bogged down over "right and wrong" or "morality"  which is understandable, but not necessarily helpful for moving the discussion along. 

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Ezuma said:
they (mainstream media) probably won't
it's depressing how well maintained american global control is, that most people think of them as 'the good guys' and are terrified of Russia and China invading, and fantastical nonsense like that




If the actions are for US interests and they benefit US citizens, then they are "the good guys".




Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Ask yourself this:

Given the cluster-fuck imbroglio over there in Syria, and given the history of grotesque U.S. geopolitical activity, do you really think the U.S. government is doing the right thing?

Would it not be more appropriate to ask the question: "What are we doing over there that isn't detestable?"

I'm sure those assholes are doing everything they can get away with.  Press exposure isn't a threat. :thumbdown:




Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Ezuma said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Ezuma said:
they (mainstream media) probably won't
it's depressing how well maintained american global control is, that most people think of them as 'the good guys' and are terrified of Russia and China invading, and fantastical nonsense like that




If the actions are for US interests and they benefit US citizens, then they are "the good guys".




see I knew deep down you were a thug all along




If you want the majority of US citizens to get outraged for their government conducting military operations that directly benefit their economic well-being, you're delusional.





Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

qman said:
If you want the majority of US citizens to get outraged for their government conducting military operations that directly benefit their economic well-being, you're delusional.



you keep putting your authoritarian foot in your mouth, don't you.

it's economic well-being to take from anyone, so does that mean we should just do that? just cause?

there's this thing called morals, and ethics. you're just back-trailing to the hypocritical methods used by your very own sworn enemies, Hilary, and Obama. nice complete backtrack on what you espouse as your so-called "values".




the first thing to understand is that war is never about morality, it is always about policy. 

I discussed this briefly here
Quote:

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Sir Basil Hart again: (he's my go-to theorist in case you couldn't tell already)

Quote:

While there are many causes for which a state goes to war, its fundamental object can be epitomized as that of ensuring the continuance of its policy--in face of the determination of the opposing state to pursue a contrary policy.  In the human will lies the source and mainspring of conflict.  For a state to gain its object in war it has to change this adverse will into compliance with its own policy.  Once this is realized, the military principle of "destroying the main armed forces on the battlefield", which Clausewitz's disciples exalted to a paramount position, fits into its proper place along with the other instruments of grand strategy--which include the more oblique kinds of military action as well as economic pressure, propaganda, and diplomacy.  Instead of giving excessive emphasis to one means, which circumstances may render ineffective, it is wiser to choose and combine whichever are the most suitable, most penetrative, and most conservative of effort--i.e. which will subdue the opposing will at the lowest war-cost and minimum injury to the post-war prospect.  For the most decisive victory is of no value if a nation be bled white in gaining it.
    It should be the aim of grand strategy to discover and pierce the Achilles' heel of the opposing government's power to make war.  And strategy, in turn, should seek to penetrate a joint in the harness of the opposing forces.  To apply one's strength where the opponent is strong weakens oneself disproportionately to the effect attained.  To strike with strong effect, one must strike at weakness.
    It is thus more potent, as well as more economical, to disarm the enemy rather than attempt his destruction by hard fighting.  For the 'mauling' method entails not only a dangerous cost in exhaustion but the risk that chance may determine the issue.  A strategist should think in terms of paralyzing, not of killing.  Even on the lower plane of warfare, a man killed is merely one man less, whereas a man unnerved is a highly infectious carrier of fear, capable of spreading an endemic of panic.  On a higher plane of warfare, the impression made on the mind of the opposing commander can nullify the whole fighting power that his troops posses.  And on a still higher plane, psychological pressure on the government of a country may suffice to cancel all the resources at its command--so that the sword drops from a paralyzed hand.
    To repeat the keynote of the initial chapter: the analysis of war shows that while the nominal strength of a country is represented by its numbers and resources, this muscular development is dependent on the state of its internal organs and nerve-system--upon its stability of control, morale, and supply. Direct pressure always tends to harden and consolidate the resistance of an opponent--like snow which is squeezed into a snowball, the more compact it becomes, the slower it is to melt.  Alike in policy and in strategy--or to put it another way, in the strategy of both the diplomatic and the military spheres--the indirect approach is the most effective way to upset the opponents balance, psychological and physical, thereby making possible his overthrow.




underlines are mine for emphasis.








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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23661182 - 09/20/16 10:04 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

[in terms of war]
yeah, well, Qman wants to put himself on the moral highground, when it simply doesn't make any sense what he's saying. "good guys". no. it's a preference. not reality. in reality, their are no "good guys", just players.

his becoming null and void will lead, incrementally, to better policy; though, let's not get too carried away, as Sir Basil Hart implies...afterall, war isn't about morality, it's about policy. squeeze the snow.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: akira_akuma] * 5
    #23661216 - 09/20/16 10:17 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

In this thread, qman advocates an unsavory foreign policy so long as it benefits Americans.

In the "rise of the far right" thread, he denies that the West would exploit others for domestic gain.

:cookiemonster:


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Offlineqman
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23661281 - 09/20/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Quote:

qman said:
If you want the majority of US citizens to get outraged for their government conducting military operations that directly benefit their economic well-being, you're delusional.



you keep putting your authoritarian foot in your mouth, don't you.

it's economic well-being to take from anyone, so does that mean we should just do that? just cause?

there's this thing called morals, and ethics. you're just back-trailing to the hypocritical methods used by your very own sworn enemies, Hilary, and Obama. nice complete backtrack on what you espouse as your so-called "values".




Letting others take potential resources to disadvantage me in life is the ethical position you want me to take?  You do realize there has to be a winner and loser in this game, which side do you want to be on?


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Offlineqman
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23661288 - 09/20/16 10:41 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Distractions are just a bonus, care to address every single other reason, for which there are explicit monied interests?




Well, going into Iraq provided a shitty return on investment in my opinion.  In fact, a negative return.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: qman] * 2
    #23661290 - 09/20/16 10:42 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Arent you the one who thinks sovereignty is a cornerstone of a functional international society?

Or does that only apply when brown people want to take resources from you (instead of vice versa)?


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Offlineqman
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23661296 - 09/20/16 10:47 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
In this thread, qman advocates an unsavory foreign policy so long as it benefits Americans.

In the "rise of the far right" thread, he denies that the West would exploit others for domestic gain.

:cookiemonster:




"advocates an unsavory foreign policy"

Nope, stop making things up.

"so long as it benefits Americans"

Can't a US foreign policy benefit Americans and NOT be "unsavory" at the same time?  Yes.

"he denies that the West would exploit others for domestic gain"

No I don't, I just don't think the West should be flooded with third world leeches if it were to potentially happen.


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Offlineqman
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23661309 - 09/20/16 10:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Arent you the one who thinks sovereignty is a cornerstone of a functional international society?

Or does that only apply when brown people want to take resources from you (instead of vice versa)?




At the end of the day, national sovereignty is only accomplished by the size of the gun, not a piece of paper.

If I can't defend my property, it's really not mine in the first place.  US and EU borders and national sovereignty are defensible, I can't say the same for other nations.


Edited by qman (09/20/16 10:53 AM)


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: qman]
    #23661315 - 09/20/16 10:57 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

Letting others take potential resources to disadvantage me in life is the ethical position you want me to take?  You do realize there has to be a winner and loser in this game, which side do you want to be on?



LOL, how arrogant. everyone in the US is competing for resources, it's called capitalism, Jingo.

Quote:

No I don't, I just don't think the West should be flooded with third world leeches if it were to potentially happen.




*abandon all nuance, we have snarl words activated*


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: qman] * 3
    #23661382 - 09/20/16 11:15 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
In this thread, qman advocates an unsavory foreign policy so long as it benefits Americans.

In the "rise of the far right" thread, he denies that the West would exploit others for domestic gain.

:cookiemonster:




"advocates an unsavory foreign policy"

Nope, stop making things up.

"so long as it benefits Americans"

Can't a US foreign policy benefit Americans and NOT be "unsavory" at the same time?  Yes.

"he denies that the West would exploit others for domestic gain"

No I don't, I just don't think the West should be flooded with third world leeches if it were to potentially happen.




Youre caught, dude. If you backtrack any harder you'll rupture an Achilles.


Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Arent you the one who thinks sovereignty is a cornerstone of a functional international society?

Or does that only apply when brown people want to take resources from you (instead of vice versa)?




At the end of the day, national sovereignty is only accomplished by the size of the gun, not a piece of paper.

If I can't defend my property, it's really not mine in the first place.  US and EU borders and national sovereignty are defensible, I can't say the same for other nations.




So "might makes right."


At least you've finally admitted that morals and ethics and sovereignty have nothing to do with it. Finally.


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OfflineEzuma
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: qman] * 3
    #23661722 - 09/20/16 01:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

so you admit america is a force of evil in the international scene. Moreover you're seemingly proud of it.
I agree, and that is why I can never respect you or anyone like you


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: Ezuma] * 3
    #23661747 - 09/20/16 01:22 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ezuma said:
so you admit america is a force of evil in the international scene. Moreover you're seemingly proud of it.
I agree, and that is why I can never respect you or anyone like you




Don't worry, he'll walk back this admission as soon as it proves convenient.


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Offlineqman
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23662385 - 09/20/16 04:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
In this thread, qman advocates an unsavory foreign policy so long as it benefits Americans.

In the "rise of the far right" thread, he denies that the West would exploit others for domestic gain.

:cookiemonster:




"advocates an unsavory foreign policy"

Nope, stop making things up.

"so long as it benefits Americans"

Can't a US foreign policy benefit Americans and NOT be "unsavory" at the same time?  Yes.

"he denies that the West would exploit others for domestic gain"

No I don't, I just don't think the West should be flooded with third world leeches if it were to potentially happen.




Youre caught, dude. If you backtrack any harder you'll rupture an Achilles.


Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Arent you the one who thinks sovereignty is a cornerstone of a functional international society?

Or does that only apply when brown people want to take resources from you (instead of vice versa)?




At the end of the day, national sovereignty is only accomplished by the size of the gun, not a piece of paper.

If I can't defend my property, it's really not mine in the first place.  US and EU borders and national sovereignty are defensible, I can't say the same for other nations.




So "might makes right."


At least you've finally admitted that morals and ethics and sovereignty have nothing to do with it. Finally.




I'm acknowledging that some nations can defend their borders and sovereignty while other nations can't, it's basically stating the obvious.


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Offlineqman
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: Ezuma]
    #23662425 - 09/20/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ezuma said:
so you admit america is a force of evil in the international scene. Moreover you're seemingly proud of it.
I agree, and that is why I can never respect you or anyone like you




"so you admit America is a force of evil in the international scene"

Hmm no, but being the worlds only superpower brings you into a lot of questionable acts and some of those actions are wrong.

The West has brought the third world into the global economy and raised their standards of living by many multiples, that is a fact you don't seem to appreciate.

Are some of these economic relationships mutually beneficial?  Yes, but that does NOT mean the US is "exploiting" disadvantaged people.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: qman] * 2
    #23662466 - 09/20/16 05:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

sure it is, if those people never asked, or were propositioned with "the US benefit" in mind. that's the definition of "exploited".


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Offlineqman
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23662481 - 09/20/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
sure it is, if those people never asked, or were propositioned with "the US benefit" in mind. that's the definition of "exploited".




It's not exploitation when you gladly accept the terms while turning down another options.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: qman]
    #23662502 - 09/20/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

no, there is no such stipulation.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23663084 - 09/20/16 08:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
[in terms of war]
yeah, well, Qman wants to put himself on the moral highground, when it simply doesn't make any sense what he's saying. "good guys". no. it's a preference. not reality. in reality, their are no "good guys", just players.

his becoming null and void will lead, incrementally, to better policy; though, let's not get too carried away, as Sir Basil Hart implies...afterall, war isn't about morality, it's about policy. squeeze the snow.




There is very little room on the moral high-ground when it comes to war.  The best you can hope for is that the evils perpetrated in war are balanced by some "greater good".  Even that is usually more of a justification than a vindication.  As you said, there are no "good guys", just players.

the idea is not to squeeze the snow (assuming that you want to end the conflict as quickly and bloodlessly as possible).  Better to poke a weak spot in the snowball so that you can separate the bits of snow from each other and they melt much faster.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: US, Australia, Denmark Coordinate "Accidental" Bombing of Syrian Military Stringhold [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23664112 - 09/21/16 04:43 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

admittedly, i read your response pretty late in the day and i read it pretty haphazardly. i see what he means now...the snow consolidates into that wet hard lump if you squeeze, so melt the snow faster by breaking it up instead. ahhh, got you now.

well, i don't know, honestly, if the Muslims are capable of pulling off, but the US i DO. :yesnod:


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