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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution
    #23653379 - 09/17/16 05:12 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

hello lovely people, I wanted to share some info on preparing a 150ppm chlorine solution that might come in handy. Will of course be kinda obvious to a lot of people, but i hope it helps those saying things like "i dont have access to 150 ppm chlorine solution" If you want to skip the background and get to the tek, scroll down to the red

This solution is often recommended as a treatment for pseudomona problems (bacterial blotch, pit, etc.) and some people even recommend using it for ALL misting:
Quote:

Shroomery Archive on Common Contaminants said:
Bacterial Blotch %u2013 Pseudomonas tolaasii (P. fluorescens)

Yellow to brown lesions form on mushrooms. Typically, spotting occurs at or near the edge of mushroom caps. Blotch occurs when mushrooms remain wet for a period of 4 to 6 hours or longer after water has been applied. The bacterium is spread in air-borne soil particles. Controls include lowering humidity and watering with a 150 ppm chlorine solution (calcium hypochlorite products are used since sodium hypochlorite products may burn caps). If the mushroom stays wet, however, chlorine has little effect since the bacterial population reproduces at a rate that neutralizes the effect of the oxidizing agent. Shiitake caps are affected by a bacterial disease caused by Pseudomonas gladioli (Burkholderia gladioli). Sanitation is a critical component of control measures.




Quote:

TMC says:
Excessive humidity without adequate air movement and evaporation retards
mushroom development. Saturated stagnant air pockets are also breeding areas for contaminants like the Forest Green Mold (Trichoderma) and Bacterial Blotch (Pseudomonas).

Blotch results from mushroom caps that remain wet for extended periods of time. Agaricus
growers attempt to dry recently watered mushroom caps as quickly as possible by lowering the hu.
midity of the room. This is accomplished by increasing air circulation and introducing more fresh air
or by raising the air temperature 1 -2 ° F. Agaricus growers also stop watering once the mushroom
cap has reached adolescence because wet mushroom caps become prime sites for disease. Small
scale growers may be able to water around maturing mushrooms without directly hitting the caps. If
Bacterial Blotch or other diseases appear on the mushrooms or the casing soil, these areas should
not be watered. Watering contaminated regions will spread the infection further. A common strategy
for serious disease outbreaks is to lower the relative humidity and run the casing drier than normal.
Agaricus cultivators also use slightly chlorinated water (150 ppm).

Measures of Control: Use of mildly chlorinated water (150-250 ppm) or water free of high bacteria
counts. This contaminant can easily be prevented by: isolating and properly disposing of infected
fruitbodies; eliminating excessively high humidity levels during cropping (greater than 92%);
and preventing stagnant air pockets through a good air circulation system. Maintaining a sufficient
evaporation rate lessens the likelihood of these bacteria infecting the fruitbodies.





So one of my monotubs had some really crazy looking bacterial blotch and pits, looked like a little gnome went around taking a bite out of each affected cap haha.... it was looking to be a nice MS flush, but the blotch and pits were pretty prominent: many pins had holes in the caps and there were several blotchy spots.


I think this might be the cause: as this tub first started pinning it was COVERED in hyphal knots, but the tub was bone dry, like waaay too dry. I think i over-corrected in the other direction, or at least made the mistake of not substantially upping airflow after misting to ensure no standing water remained. Evidently, i must have allowed it to pool and stagnate, even if it was only slightly, it must have been enough to cause problems. I dont think i used too much water necessarily, i think it didnt evaporate fast enough.

After doing a little reading and trying to decide my best course of action, i immediately removed the polyfill from the top holes and greatly loosened the polyfill on the side holes, and i took my fan off the timer and ran it 24/7 instead.

I really wanted to prevent it from spreading and nip this problem in the bud, so in addition to substantially upping the airflow I decided to try the aforementioned 150 ppm chlorine solution many recommend. I applied the solution twice, and I am quite happy to report that the pseudomonas infestation appears to be entirely cleared up!! probably mainly due to the increased airflow, but the chlorine solution certainly seemed to speed up the blotch/pit recovery a lot. Not a great first flush, but its MS and considering the pseudomonas problems im happy to have a harvest and learn something.

close up of the previously blotchy, pit-ridden caps pictured above:




I couldn't find any direct info on the forum explaining how to make a 150 ppm solution, so after finding out i thought it might be useful info for others like myself who didn't really know how to proceed. Also, bear in mind that this solution WILL NOT HELP if it just sits on the myc/fruits, it needs to evaporate, along with the remaining water, to be effective. I waited until the increased airflow & evaporation from the removed polyfill had completely dried all standing water before i applied the chlorine solution, since it would make the problem worse if it just increases the amount of stagnant water.

(btw, to anyone interested, here is the paper i referenced: CONVERTING HOUSEHOLD BLEACH TO PARTS PER MILLION OF AVAILABLE CHLORINE )

The Tek/Process for Making 150 ppm Chlorine Solution:


What you need:
  • household bleach, pool chlorine, or another substance with a known chlorine availability
  • h2o
  • spray bottle
  • graduated cylinders, syringes, pipettes, or another way to accurately measure fractions of a ml
  • beaker or mixing bowl
  • stir rod with rubber policeman, spatula, or other stirring utensil



the basic calculations involved for making 1l of solution:
Quote:

multiply 1000 ml x 150 ppm = 1000 x (150/1,000,000) = .15 ml chlorine per 1000ml water




ppm amounts are used to designate very, VERY low concentrations, and we must take extra care when dealing with such small quantities, factoring in the + or - tolerance of the glassware/measuring tools used. In this case the worst that could happen is burning your shrooms and turning your clothes white, but many people have died or mutilated their minds and bodies by trying to guess/eyeball measurements of toxic or potent compounds (fentanyl and its analogues, all the research chems being applied to blotter and sold as LSD, to name a few) ; bleach is relatively safe, but understand the principle. be careful friends.

So my household bleach designates the amount of available chlorine right on the label, how handy :smile: but note that while most info on the web, including the paper i referenced for this, states that household bleach has usually 5.25% available chlorine, the bleach i have has a different number, so always pick a bleach that specifies the available chlorine, because apparently it can differ greatly and have a huge impact on ppm solutions



my bleach is 7.86% available chlorine. in other words 1 gallon of this bleach = 0.0786 gallons of chlorine. So to calculate how much of this bleach i need to use to make a 150 ppm chlorine solution:
Quote:

.15 ml chlorine = 1.908 ml of this brand bleach




Trying to measure fractions of a ml with standard equipment is how mistakes get made, whether that is a mushroom being burned by bleach or a fentanyl OD. So here we dilute the bleach to make it easier to measure. For the sake of simplicity:

1. mix 10 ml bleach with 90 ml h20 and ensure the total measures 100 ml as accurately as possible using graduated cylinder(sometimes i use syringes and pipettes as well, but beakers are a no-no because they have high margin for error).

2. after ensuring that this is homogeneous, measure 19.08 ml of this premixture

3. combine 19.08 ml premix with 980.92 ml h20 and mix thoroughly

4. fill spray bottle

Remember, your bleach can and most likely will be different, so look for the available chlorine on the label and substitute that number in for where I used my concentration 

I welcome any additional info, corrections, feedback, etc, especially since i am terrible at math lol... worked well for me and figured i would share for the benefit of others in the same situation


mush love my friends :rockon:


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Edited by c10h12n2o (09/17/16 05:19 PM)


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23653391 - 09/17/16 05:16 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Couldn't you weigh the liquid to get an accurate ml measurement if you don't have equipment to measure ml's down to the .00, providing you have suitable scales. Which is more likely than the lab equipment


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23653415 - 09/17/16 05:22 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

no, that is a different type of ratio, what you are referring to would be a weight:volume , this is a volume : volume ratio, it could/would be entirely different

but again, in the steps above we defeat the need to measure hundredths of a ml by diluting in 2 steps, so that we take 19.08 ml rather than trying to take 1.908 ml (which would be much harder to measure accurately)


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23653421 - 09/17/16 05:23 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

I'd like to see a few more examples of this working.
but it is interesting.

Not to take away from op but i think your poly was waaay to tight.
and i like to duct tape... i did it too!! and got bashed for it :P


...and i looked back at your post.. you acknowledged the poly.. sorry


Edited by mushboy (09/17/16 05:26 PM)


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o] * 1
    #23653444 - 09/17/16 05:29 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Dude, I love your posts:thumbup:
And I am blown away you fought that blotch and won! I grow Plearotus Eryngii, which is one of the most susceptible mushrooms to blotch and I got it bad on a whole run of 20 bags and had to throw them out, I eventually had to clean my whole room, bleach bomb it and start it back up again but I had turned down the RH to 80-85 and set the FAE to constant and never saw it again.
I'm stoked to see another method of fighting this, or at least reviving one. I have never seen it in a tub but I will definitely be paying more attention, oh one more thing to mention, with my eryngii, It always started on a part of the mushroom or pin where a drop or bead of water had been sitting for more than a day.
Awesome job and great write up, will deffinately be using this in the future when I run into this again:super:


Edited by Rooster Cogburn (09/17/16 05:33 PM)


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: mushboy]
    #23653449 - 09/17/16 05:32 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

the bottom might have been a little too tight, top polyfill was barely even staying in, when i took it all the way out and cranked up the FAE it dried right up though

there are lots of examples of 150 ppm chlorine solution being used to treat pseudomonas in the academic literature, what specifically would you like to see? seems like pseudomonas is one of the easier contams to deal with, being relatively easy to control if you remove the conditions that led to its gaining a foothold, and the chlorine treatment seemed to speed it up pretty dramatically

but all in all i think correcting the conditions has more to do with it than the solution. you could probably defeat it without the solution by adjusting conditions alone; on the other hand the chlorine solution absolutely COULD NOT clear it up without also fixing the standing/stagnant water problem

haha ive seen lots of hating on duct taping liners, but i still havent seen anyone specify why not ?? seems like a pretty effective way to install a liner into place.. it would be much appreciated if someone could clear that up for me :wink:

EDIT: re: Rooster:

thanks buddy, and right back at ya! :highfive1:

thats great info you added, terrifying stuff!! 20 bags of kings to blotch?? that makes me tear up a little dude... talk about a hard learned lesson :/ I was so worried that it was going to spread to my other tubs in my fruiting room, really wanted to make sure i knocked it out before i increase the cubensis population density in there too terribly high lol

Quote:

It always started on a part of the mushroom or pin where a drop or bead of water had been sitting for more than a day.



:whathesaid: this seems to be the key to preventing pseudomonas, thanks for sharing your experience :smile:


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche


Edited by c10h12n2o (09/17/16 05:44 PM)


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23653465 - 09/17/16 05:37 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

c10h12n2o said:

there are lots of examples of 150 ppm chlorine solution being used to treat pseudomonas in the academic literature, what specifically would you like to see?




helps if i use google first right :p
:peterkillself:


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: mushboy]
    #23653573 - 09/17/16 06:19 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

be VERY careful when googling anything about pseudomonas , seriously you just might loose your lunch

some types infest babies, causing them to literally rot to death and its some of the nastiest, most disturbingly real images you will ever see. cant unsee that kind of stuff.... at least avoid the images tab, or use a negative keyword for babies (searching for "pseudamonas -baby" without the quotes)


like damn girl, wash yo pussy  :evilpuke:


--------------------

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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche


Edited by c10h12n2o (09/17/16 06:21 PM)


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23653586 - 09/17/16 06:24 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
be VERY careful when googling anything about pseudomonas , seriously you just might loose your lunch

some types infest babies, causing them to literally rot to death and its some of the nastiest, most disturbingly real images you will ever see. cant unsee that kind of stuff.... at least avoid the images tab, or use a negative keyword for babies (searching for "pseudamonas -baby" without the quotes)


like damn girl, wash yo pussy  :evilpuke:



goes right to google image search
:mustnotfap:


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23653603 - 09/17/16 06:32 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

That was absolutely awful :scat:


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23653614 - 09/17/16 06:38 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Thanks man!  My last batch before I started agar had the blotch pretty bad, and that was also when I first became aware of it.  Probably the same reason I started agar too.
Anyway,  I used bacterial spawn too so that surely contributed, but from what I read about the blotch is that most mushrooms have the bacteria that causes it on their caps anyway and the blotch can gain a foothold by too much humidity or watering.  I was over-misting and making it worse.  It spreads fast!

If I get it again I will definitely try this.  Hopefully I don't though and now that I'm using agar my spawn looks and smells great!


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23653704 - 09/17/16 07:15 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
no, that is a different type of ratio, what you are referring to would be a weight:volume , this is a volume : volume ratio, it could/would be entirely different



I would imagine 1ml of your bleach is near enough to 1gram. The solution called for in TMC was 150-250ppm so no need to be overly worried, and your bleach will be degrading anyway so what is on the bottle will not be overly accurate.


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: blackout]
    #23654137 - 09/17/16 11:11 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

blackout said:
Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
no, that is a different type of ratio, what you are referring to would be a weight:volume , this is a volume : volume ratio, it could/would be entirely different



I would imagine 1ml of your bleach is near enough to 1gram. The solution called for in TMC was 150-250ppm so no need to be overly worried, and your bleach will be degrading anyway so what is on the bottle will not be overly accurate.




that would be incorrect. a solution might have the same specific gravity as water (meaning 1g = 1ml), but that does not mean that all solutions will have the same specific gravity as water. people make this mistake in the cannabis concentrate industry CONSTANTLY, and some people refuse to learn lol...

a gram is standardized as the weight of 1 ml h20, which is equivalent to one cubic cm (hence "cc" being interchangable for ml). that is why water has a specific gravity of 1. other solutions, having more dissolved mass or heavier constituents, can have quite different specific gravities. this is why oil floats on water, and syrup sinks, etc.

its really easy to make these mistakes, mass and volume are quite different things: higher density leads to more mass within the same volume

I have personally have known 2 people who died from making mistakes in weight vs volume calculations, including someone who was probably the smartest, most inspiring person i have ever met. pretty fuckin sad actually :frown: even the smartest people in the world can make careless errors, and when we are talking about micrograms of fentanyl or a ppm solution those careless mistakes can have a huge (even deadly) impact

i just measured for the sake of the conversation, and the bleach solution i have weighs 1.26 grams per ml, which represents a specific gravity substantially higher than water. Even water can have a different specific gravity at different temperatures and different dissolved solid contents, etc., so its really never safe to assume that mass = volume, even with water


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23654229 - 09/17/16 11:54 PM (4 years, 8 days ago)

makes sense to me.  but in this particular context it would seem blackout has a point.  No one here is gonna measure chlorine so accurately so how about trying to find and average. 
How does one drop of (standard Clorox at a store) to 1000 ml of water sound?


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: Kenetic]
    #23654523 - 09/18/16 01:46 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

kenetic said:
makes sense to me.  but in this particular context it would seem blackout has a point.  No one here is gonna measure chlorine so accurately so how about trying to find and average.




i think you are confused about something. blackout brought up several good points, including pointing out that TMC recommends a range, but he was a little confused about the specific gravity of water vs bleach (which is a common mistake, especially when discussing volume-volume vs weight-volume, its very easy to mix up; especially since the whole system is based on water, and shortcuts that work for h2o dont work for substances with a different specific gravity)

there are no super accurate measurements required in the procedure i outlined, what are you referring to? it lists the amount of available chlorine right on the bleach label, couldnt get any easier than that.

using a 1:10 premix makes it dead simple to measure the required amount, since its much easier to measure 19.06 ml than 1.906 ml, and gives us a MUCH wider margin for error, so it wont be too drastically off one way or another if our measurements are less than precise. On the other hand, without using a 1:10 premix and trying to measure 1.906 ml, being off by a fraction of a ml would be WAY outside of our range. this greatly reduces the harm of being slightly off


Quote:

kenetic said:How does one drop of (standard Clorox at a store) to 1000 ml of water sound?




sounds terribly inaccurate, definitely not a good way to make a 150 ppm solution. you MUST know the available chlorine to be able to calculate the amount needed for a ppm solution; fortunately, it is usually printed right on the bottle, beside the active ingredient. (FYI 5.7% for standard Clorox, but the point is check the label)

a mixture like you describe might be effective, might not, might be too much bleach, might not: point is, you cant be certain without knowing the available chlorine of the bleach used and the exact amount used (which is why we make the 1:10 premix, for easy measuring). Why not just do it correctly/accurately? Its not any more difficult, and you can reduce the number of factors that might have gone wrong in the event of a problem

also, 150-250 ppm might sound like a big range (like 150-250 lbs), but it is not. The difference in a 150ppm solution and a 500 ppm solution could be smaller than a grain of salt (depending on volume). Any time you are talking about ppm, it is an EXTREMELY low concentration, so special care needs to be taken when working in such minute increments

weight and volume are two different things: when you are working with ppm by volume, you need to use volumetric measurements


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Edited by c10h12n2o (09/18/16 01:49 AM)


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23654617 - 09/18/16 02:55 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Damn I bet it took you a long time to write all that....

btw I know what ppm is, I used to wash dishes at mcdonalds. 

If I ever get the blotch again I'll be sure to try your method.  I really hope I don't need it. 

Interesting write up, thanks.


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23654620 - 09/18/16 02:57 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

:asianofapproval:


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: Kenetic]
    #23654665 - 09/18/16 03:27 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

kenetic said:
btw I know what ppm is, I used to wash dishes at mcdonalds.




:lol:  Can't tell if this is a joke or not.


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: Inocuole]
    #23654706 - 09/18/16 04:04 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

kenetic said:
Damn I bet it took you a long time to write all that....

btw I know what ppm is, I used to wash dishes at mcdonalds. 

If I ever get the blotch again I'll be sure to try your method.  I really hope I don't need it. 

Interesting write up, thanks.




lol nah, the power went out, had to wait for it to come back on so it took me a bit to respond.

I wish i could take credit for the method, but it has been around for quite a while. TMC mentions it (quoted above), and there are dozens of threads where people recommend 150 ppm chlorine solution for pseudomonas (some people recommend using it for ALL watering), I just couldnt find anything on the site about how to actually create such a solution, so i shared a technique once i sorted it out.

As ubiquitous as china white and fake pharms containing fentanyl have become, I really think proper volumetric measuring techniques should be taught as a matter of harm reduction, so maybe a dozen people wouldnt drop dead every time someone gets a pure shipment from china and thinks their .01 g scale is adequate way to measure doses

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Quote:

kenetic said:
btw I know what ppm is, I used to wash dishes at mcdonalds.




:lol:  Can't tell if this is a joke or not.




i know right, third time ive felt that way in this thread. i laughed out loud this time though :rofl:

after a little googling, i think i found what led him to say that. it looks like dishwashers at mcdonalds use test kits which identify ppm concentrations of something at some point in the process

Quote:

Machines using a quaternary ammonium solution must rinse at a minimum of 75 degrees F, and the solution must be at a minimum of 150 ppm and a maximum of 400 ppm




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Edited by c10h12n2o (08/28/20 09:02 PM)


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Re: How to Make 150 ppm Chlorine Solution [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23654888 - 09/18/16 08:49 AM (4 years, 8 days ago)

every food service job I ever had we had to test the sanitizer water.  I don't even think u can pass a health inspection if u don't have test strips if ur brick and mortar store.

cool thread mang!  some mornings my tap water smells like a light bleach solution:sad:


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