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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Clinton v. Trump
    #23651624 - 09/16/16 09:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I want to discuss this philosophically, not politically.

These two candidates do not represent real choice on the ballot.

I'm not sure we've ever had two worse options for the office of the president.

The choice is between a bloviating ignoramus and a corrupt insider shill for the 1% who is also dangerously hawkish.

Is democracy as a political institution failing at this point?  Could our available choices be any worse?  What the fuck are we voting for?

Trump wants to reduce taxes for the rich, even further.  Clinton wants to go after Russia by beefing up NATO and containing it, and feels our role as policeman of the world is a righteous one.

I dunno, this sort of all adds up to me as the systemic failure of a dying society.  The middle class is drying up, opportunities for young people are at an all-time low, an education has never been more expensive -- or useless.

What's going on here?


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Offlinecr1s1s
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23651733 - 09/16/16 10:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It's total proof the system is broken, that's for sure. Everybody was all about Sanders and yet he's no longer a choice.
Corporations count as people now and can vote with their $$$ by making huge donations to candidates campaigns. This further cuts out the interests of the people in favor of interest of big business.
Voting lines are drawn with specific intent to make sure that certain areas always have a predictable outcome for a certain side. Then the electoral college votes will sway a certain way, despite the numbers of people who have cast their vote otherwise.
Simply put, the election system needs a reform. The voice of the people is not being heard and is actively being smothered out.

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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23651735 - 09/16/16 10:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

First of all, I think it's impossible to bring up this topic in a non-political context.  The mere fact that you claim these are both terrible choices is a statement of your political opinion, although I don't disagree with it.

I do sometimes think we are experiencing a sort of cultural decay.  I've long thought that it would make sense for a society to experience certain cycles.  For example, when a society experiences depression, war, and other hard times, the people become stronger, work harder and create prosperity for the future generations, but a generation or two later you have people born in decadence and they become used to it (maybe what we have now) and this leads to decline or collapse eventually.

One thing I'd like to say about the whole policeman role though...I'm not an expert, but I believe a lot of the U.S. status as the leading world power and its tremendous level of global influence is a result of the WW2 aftermath and the changes to international politics.  I think a lot of U.S. prosperity in many ways is directly tied to maintaining its role of world policeman and exerting the tremendous amount of influence it has.  A lot of people take issue with this behavior because they think it's unjust or morally wrong, but they probably benefit from it economically in their everyday life in ways that they aren't aware of.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23651751 - 09/16/16 10:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

At this point Trump might be the better choice because he'd make it obvious how broken the system is and it would increase the chances of a no confidence vote and some genuine change.


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Offlinecr1s1s
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: sudly]
    #23651823 - 09/16/16 11:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah maybe he should be elected president just to show how fucked the system is, then we can impeach him as soon as he does something retarded and we'll just replace him with Bernie.

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23651926 - 09/17/16 12:39 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy under a system that is supposed to be a democratic republic



coupled with domestic violence being the only thing that garners any attention towards this




how can anything go right on any large scale?





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OfflineHippocampus
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: demiu5]
    #23652035 - 09/17/16 02:32 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I enjoyed the first thread a long time ago until it was moved to political forum.  Drugged out morons going on about minor political points they are fed by the media.  I'd rather die than spend a day in that forum.  If this gets moved over there I'm hitting the hide thread button so fast someone should record it.  My mouse will be the first thing to travel faster than light.   

I see a trend that happens with issues.  Not necessarily just political candidates or issues, but any issue that is brought to the forefront of the nation's attention.  There is this effort by the media to portray things in a fair and balanced way.  But often the two sides of the issue are not equal.  Nonetheless, the media gives a balanced review of both sides.  And then we see a shift where people start to parrot what they media tells them.  People pick a side based on the wind, or what their friends, spouse, church pastor, or coworkers think.  And then dig in to that position as hard as they can just because it's an "issue" and you have to have an opinion on it, and be prepared to defend it.  This has happened with all sorts of things.  Gay marriage comes immediately to mind.  Before it was a deal, people didn't really care, or they were in slightly in favor of it.  But once it became GAY MARRIAGE, POLITICAL ISSUE, suddenly everyone cared and people opinions split more evenly based on the even handed press coverage and party lines.  This phenomenon happens every presidential election. 

But this election a funny thing happened.  Drumpf.  Many people thought like you DQ, myself included.  This guy is a buffoon.  A mockery of the political system.  An egomaniac who is only interested in office because it's the highest in the land.

But we can't have such a one sided narrative.  So Clinton was dragged through the muck in a political mud flinging contest I have never seen the likes of before.  She went from old Hillary, the consummate politician to The the evil she-devil, on the brink of death, bent on destroying America before she rolls over.  A treasonous hater of this country who only wants the seat of presidency so that she can make more corrupt money, and destroy the very fabric of our culture. 

I think that if Drumpf wasn't such a terrible candidate we wouldn't have nearly this level of Hillary hating going on.  The hate has to be balanced.  Imagine if the republican candidate was a dead sewer rat?  There'd surely be a whole conservative movement to release Hillary's death certificate, proving that she too is in fact dead.  And if we could just get a DNA sample, we're pretty sure she has rat DNA too.  And obviously she's lived in the sewer too.  Didn't everyone know that?

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23652206 - 09/17/16 05:38 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

As the cognitive replies are all good, I will respond at the feeling level. Yes it is sad.

And as we all know, it's just more surreal this time around, but the problems (as pointed out, above) are not new, which  adds to the sadness.

If I think back to many recent previous candidates (both initial runners up and finalists), it seems to me it's been pathetic. Meaning both the candidates themselves and the fact that many of them were even taken seriously. Many have turned out to have serious skeletons in their closets as well.

Reminds me of the quip:
Life is a tragedy for those who feel,
and a comedy for those who think.

But however we are experiencing 'it',
the word interesting might apply ...

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23652580 - 09/17/16 09:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
I do sometimes think we are experiencing a sort of cultural decay.  I've long thought that it would make sense for a society to experience certain cycles.  For example, when a society experiences depression, war, and other hard times, the people become stronger, work harder and create prosperity for the future generations, but a generation or two later you have people born in decadence and they become used to it (maybe what we have now) and this leads to decline or collapse eventually.




I think this is particularly solid thinking, and I couldn't agree more.  The cycle has repeated numerous times throughout history (Egypt, Greece, Rome, Byzantium and more recently Europe, the British empire, and now the U.S.).  Rise>success>decadence>decay>collapse seems to be the pattern.

Quote:

One thing I'd like to say about the whole policeman role though...I'm not an expert, but I believe a lot of the U.S. status as the leading world power and its tremendous level of global influence is a result of the WW2 aftermath and the changes to international politics.  I think a lot of U.S. prosperity in many ways is directly tied to maintaining its role of world policeman and exerting the tremendous amount of influence it has.  A lot of people take issue with this behavior because they think it's unjust or morally wrong, but they probably benefit from it economically in their everyday life in ways that they aren't aware of.




That's true.  The U.S. has to step on a lot of throats to maintain its global hegemony and internal surplus of resources and wealth.  A lot of third world countries have to remain in the gutter for our system to stay in the black.  And U.S. government and business actively repress them.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: demiu5]
    #23652584 - 09/17/16 09:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy under a system that is supposed to be a democratic republic



coupled with domestic violence being the only thing that garners any attention towards this




how can anything go right on any large scale?





American government is democratic only on issues that do not affect the economic interests of the elite. Citizens can hold their representatives' feet to the fire on any number of issues, but the divergence of public opinion and policy on certain other issues will simply not be addressed.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: demiu5] * 1
    #23652852 - 09/17/16 11:32 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy under a system that is supposed to be a democratic republic





This is a really good point, by the way.  I would translate it as:  The United States is a plutocratic oligopoly pretending to be a pure democracy which was founded as a federal republic. 

We don't even have a coherent identity.


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OfflineLion
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23652961 - 09/17/16 12:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
We don't even have a coherent identity.


In that regard, the rest of the world, nations and humans, welcomes us to the club.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: Lion]
    #23653081 - 09/17/16 12:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Touché.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: Lion]
    #23653461 - 09/17/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
We don't even have a coherent identity.


In that regard, the rest of the world, nations and humans, welcomes us to the club.




we don't have a coherent identity?

ever heard of 'the ugly American' ?

I'm afraid we do have a contradictory identity

on the one hand our lifestyle and wealth is envied

and on the other hand we are deeply resented, seen as shallow, & crass & etc.

but it gets worse: imperialistic -- with good reason


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: laughingdog]
    #23653605 - 09/17/16 04:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

we don't have a coherent identity?

ever heard of 'the ugly American' ?

I'm afraid we do have a contradictory identity

on the one hand our lifestyle and wealth is envied

and on the other hand we are deeply resented, seen as shallow, & crass & etc.

but it gets worse: imperialistic -- with good reason





Yes, that's all true.  To some people, we have comparatively more freedoms.  To some, our riches are envied.  To many others, we are resented variously for our decadence, our shallowness, the shabbiness of our culture, our ultramaterialism, etc.  I think to most we are seen as imperialistic, everyone except maybe most Americans.  By the way, this is the perspective of many Muslims around the world, which lends credence to the notion that when the politically-minded radicals among them attack us, they are perhaps not crazy towelheads.  Not justifying, just a thought.  But the U.S. has had ample opportunity to learn lessons and never done it.  And so on and on we blunder, and we'll see in November who will lead us in our blundering.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23653690 - 09/17/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

the books of Chalmers Johnson document this stuff

Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire

The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic

etc.

books are on Amazon -also videos on Youtube

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_8/156-3035837-9011411?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=chalmers+johnson&sprefix=chalmers%2Caps%2C167

"The term "blowback," invented by the CIA, refers to the unintended results of American actions abroad. In this incisive and controversial book, Chalmers Johnson lays out in vivid detail the dangers faced by our overextended empire, which insists on projecting its military power to every corner of the earth and using American capital and markets to force global economic integration on its own terms. From a case of rape by U.S. servicemen in Okinawa to our role in Asia's financial crisis, from our early support for Saddam Hussein to our conduct in the Balkans, Johnson reveals the ways in which our misguided policies are planting the seeds of future disaster.

In a new edition that addresses recent international events from September 11 to the war in Iraq, this now classic book remains as prescient and powerful as ever."

and of course as we watch the election/media/circus there is no mention of any of the elephants in the room

fortunately I have no TV, and only NPR radio, (with handy off switch) & internet, so that greatly reduces my exposure to the media/circus

- - - - - -

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chalmers Ashby Johnson (August 6, 1931 – November 20, 2010)[1] was an American author and professor emeritus of the University of California, San Diego. He served in the Korean War, was a consultant for the CIA from 1967 to 1973, and chaired the Center for Chinese Studies at the University of California, Berkeley from 1967 to 1972.[2] He was also president and co-founder with Steven Clemons of the Japan Policy Research Institute (now based at the University of San Francisco), an organization promoting public education about Japan and Asia.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: laughingdog]
    #23653767 - 09/17/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, Uncle Sam has had his fingers in a lot of different pies.  I also like Morris Berman and Noam Chomsky on the subject of American hegemony and (what is basically) lawlessness.  It is, as you know, a long story.

TV news isn't really news, because they don't actually report anything anymore.  I catch a little CNN and MSNBC every once in a while (I never watch Fox News), and it's just not journalism anymore.  It's been years since any international news was reported on any of these outlets.  I've heard the term "newzak" coined, and I think it's a good word.  Just mindless drivel only fit for elevator or background sound.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23654542 - 09/17/16 11:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

demiu5 said:
an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy under a system that is supposed to be a democratic republic





This is a really good point, by the way.  I would translate it as:  The United States is a plutocratic oligopoly pretending to be a pure democracy which was founded as a federal republic. 

We don't even have a coherent identity.





we absolutely have coherent identity.  USA has multiple coherent identities.  much of it stems from this:



                                    DICKINSON
                        We cannot found a country based on war!

                       
                                    ADAMS
                        We cannot found a country that is afraid
                        to fight!

                                    CONGRESSMAN
                        Rabble!

                                    CONGRESSMEN
                        Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble
                        Rabble!  Oh my, it's Benjamin Franklin.
                        It's Benjamin Franklin. It's Benjamin
                        Franklin.

                                    CARTMAN
                        Oh, it's Benjamin Franklin. It's Benjamin
                        Franklin. It's Benjamin Franklin.

                       
                                    HANCOCK
                        Mr. Franklin, where do you stand on
                        the war issue?

                                    FRANKLIN
                        I believe that if we are to form a new
                        country, we cannot be a country that
                        appears war-hungry and violent to the
                        rest of the world. However, we also
                        cannot be a country that appears weak
                        and unwilling to fight to the rest of
                        the world. So, what if we form a country
                        that appears to want both?

                                    JEFFERSON
                        Yes. Yes of course. We go to war, and
                        protest going to war at the same time.

                       
                                    DICKINSON
                        Right. If the people of our new country
                        are allowed to do whatever they wish,
                        then some will support the war and some
                        will protest it.

                                    FRANKLIN
                        And that means that as a nation, we
                        could go to war with whomever we wished,
                        but at the same time, act like we didn't
                        want to. If we allow the people to protest
                        what the government does, then the country
                        will be forever blameless.

                                    ADAMS
                          It's like having your cake, and eating
                        it, too.

                                    CONGRESSMAN 2
                        Think of it: an entire nation founded
                        on saying one thing and doing another.

                       
                                    HANCOCK
                        And we will call that country the United
                        States of America.




From 'I'm a :Little Bit Country" South Park Season 7




one of the most poignant scenes in South Park. 

the above only speaks to a few root identities, i perceive there to be many, many more.



if the USA was a person, it would be committed, strapped up, fed a constant supply of pharmaceuticals, and treated as sub-human/like a caged animal.  highly schizophrenic; a danger to itself and others


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: demiu5]
    #23655053 - 09/18/16 09:09 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well, given that we have multiple, highly schizophrenic identities, one could make the case that our identity is not coherent.  Semantics, whatever.

You make a great point.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23655092 - 09/18/16 09:25 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I enjoy this guys tangents and thought he made a few good points :lol:
If you get a chance listen to his Tiny Desk appearance it's pretty great IMO



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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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