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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Clinton v. Trump
#23651624 - 09/16/16 09:36 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I want to discuss this philosophically, not politically.
These two candidates do not represent real choice on the ballot.
I'm not sure we've ever had two worse options for the office of the president.
The choice is between a bloviating ignoramus and a corrupt insider shill for the 1% who is also dangerously hawkish.
Is democracy as a political institution failing at this point? Could our available choices be any worse? What the fuck are we voting for?
Trump wants to reduce taxes for the rich, even further. Clinton wants to go after Russia by beefing up NATO and containing it, and feels our role as policeman of the world is a righteous one.
I dunno, this sort of all adds up to me as the systemic failure of a dying society. The middle class is drying up, opportunities for young people are at an all-time low, an education has never been more expensive -- or useless.
What's going on here?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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cr1s1s

Registered: 09/06/14
Posts: 187
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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It's total proof the system is broken, that's for sure. Everybody was all about Sanders and yet he's no longer a choice. Corporations count as people now and can vote with their $$$ by making huge donations to candidates campaigns. This further cuts out the interests of the people in favor of interest of big business. Voting lines are drawn with specific intent to make sure that certain areas always have a predictable outcome for a certain side. Then the electoral college votes will sway a certain way, despite the numbers of people who have cast their vote otherwise. Simply put, the election system needs a reform. The voice of the people is not being heard and is actively being smothered out.
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
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First of all, I think it's impossible to bring up this topic in a non-political context. The mere fact that you claim these are both terrible choices is a statement of your political opinion, although I don't disagree with it.
I do sometimes think we are experiencing a sort of cultural decay. I've long thought that it would make sense for a society to experience certain cycles. For example, when a society experiences depression, war, and other hard times, the people become stronger, work harder and create prosperity for the future generations, but a generation or two later you have people born in decadence and they become used to it (maybe what we have now) and this leads to decline or collapse eventually.
One thing I'd like to say about the whole policeman role though...I'm not an expert, but I believe a lot of the U.S. status as the leading world power and its tremendous level of global influence is a result of the WW2 aftermath and the changes to international politics. I think a lot of U.S. prosperity in many ways is directly tied to maintaining its role of world policeman and exerting the tremendous amount of influence it has. A lot of people take issue with this behavior because they think it's unjust or morally wrong, but they probably benefit from it economically in their everyday life in ways that they aren't aware of.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
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At this point Trump might be the better choice because he'd make it obvious how broken the system is and it would increase the chances of a no confidence vote and some genuine change.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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cr1s1s

Registered: 09/06/14
Posts: 187
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: sudly]
#23651823 - 09/16/16 11:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah maybe he should be elected president just to show how fucked the system is, then we can impeach him as soon as he does something retarded and we'll just replace him with Bernie.
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demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy under a system that is supposed to be a democratic republic
coupled with domestic violence being the only thing that garners any attention towards this
how can anything go right on any large scale?
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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Hippocampus



Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 753
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: demiu5]
#23652035 - 09/17/16 02:32 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I enjoyed the first thread a long time ago until it was moved to political forum. Drugged out morons going on about minor political points they are fed by the media. I'd rather die than spend a day in that forum. If this gets moved over there I'm hitting the hide thread button so fast someone should record it. My mouse will be the first thing to travel faster than light.
I see a trend that happens with issues. Not necessarily just political candidates or issues, but any issue that is brought to the forefront of the nation's attention. There is this effort by the media to portray things in a fair and balanced way. But often the two sides of the issue are not equal. Nonetheless, the media gives a balanced review of both sides. And then we see a shift where people start to parrot what they media tells them. People pick a side based on the wind, or what their friends, spouse, church pastor, or coworkers think. And then dig in to that position as hard as they can just because it's an "issue" and you have to have an opinion on it, and be prepared to defend it. This has happened with all sorts of things. Gay marriage comes immediately to mind. Before it was a deal, people didn't really care, or they were in slightly in favor of it. But once it became GAY MARRIAGE, POLITICAL ISSUE, suddenly everyone cared and people opinions split more evenly based on the even handed press coverage and party lines. This phenomenon happens every presidential election.
But this election a funny thing happened. Drumpf. Many people thought like you DQ, myself included. This guy is a buffoon. A mockery of the political system. An egomaniac who is only interested in office because it's the highest in the land.
But we can't have such a one sided narrative. So Clinton was dragged through the muck in a political mud flinging contest I have never seen the likes of before. She went from old Hillary, the consummate politician to The the evil she-devil, on the brink of death, bent on destroying America before she rolls over. A treasonous hater of this country who only wants the seat of presidency so that she can make more corrupt money, and destroy the very fabric of our culture.
I think that if Drumpf wasn't such a terrible candidate we wouldn't have nearly this level of Hillary hating going on. The hate has to be balanced. Imagine if the republican candidate was a dead sewer rat? There'd surely be a whole conservative movement to release Hillary's death certificate, proving that she too is in fact dead. And if we could just get a DNA sample, we're pretty sure she has rat DNA too. And obviously she's lived in the sewer too. Didn't everyone know that?
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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As the cognitive replies are all good, I will respond at the feeling level. Yes it is sad.
And as we all know, it's just more surreal this time around, but the problems (as pointed out, above) are not new, which adds to the sadness.
If I think back to many recent previous candidates (both initial runners up and finalists), it seems to me it's been pathetic. Meaning both the candidates themselves and the fact that many of them were even taken seriously. Many have turned out to have serious skeletons in their closets as well.
Reminds me of the quip: Life is a tragedy for those who feel, and a comedy for those who think.
But however we are experiencing 'it', the word interesting might apply ...
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Quote:
Celestial Traveler said: I do sometimes think we are experiencing a sort of cultural decay. I've long thought that it would make sense for a society to experience certain cycles. For example, when a society experiences depression, war, and other hard times, the people become stronger, work harder and create prosperity for the future generations, but a generation or two later you have people born in decadence and they become used to it (maybe what we have now) and this leads to decline or collapse eventually.
I think this is particularly solid thinking, and I couldn't agree more. The cycle has repeated numerous times throughout history (Egypt, Greece, Rome, Byzantium and more recently Europe, the British empire, and now the U.S.). Rise>success>decadence>decay>collapse seems to be the pattern.
Quote:
One thing I'd like to say about the whole policeman role though...I'm not an expert, but I believe a lot of the U.S. status as the leading world power and its tremendous level of global influence is a result of the WW2 aftermath and the changes to international politics. I think a lot of U.S. prosperity in many ways is directly tied to maintaining its role of world policeman and exerting the tremendous amount of influence it has. A lot of people take issue with this behavior because they think it's unjust or morally wrong, but they probably benefit from it economically in their everyday life in ways that they aren't aware of.
That's true. The U.S. has to step on a lot of throats to maintain its global hegemony and internal surplus of resources and wealth. A lot of third world countries have to remain in the gutter for our system to stay in the black. And U.S. government and business actively repress them.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: demiu5]
#23652584 - 09/17/16 09:36 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
demiu5 said: an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy under a system that is supposed to be a democratic republic
coupled with domestic violence being the only thing that garners any attention towards this
how can anything go right on any large scale?
American government is democratic only on issues that do not affect the economic interests of the elite. Citizens can hold their representatives' feet to the fire on any number of issues, but the divergence of public opinion and policy on certain other issues will simply not be addressed.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: demiu5] 1
#23652852 - 09/17/16 11:32 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
demiu5 said: an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy under a system that is supposed to be a democratic republic
This is a really good point, by the way. I would translate it as: The United States is a plutocratic oligopoly pretending to be a pure democracy which was founded as a federal republic.
We don't even have a coherent identity.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate


Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 4 days, 19 hours
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: We don't even have a coherent identity.
In that regard, the rest of the world, nations and humans, welcomes us to the club.
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: Lion]
#23653081 - 09/17/16 12:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Touché.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: Lion]
#23653461 - 09/17/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: We don't even have a coherent identity.
In that regard, the rest of the world, nations and humans, welcomes us to the club.
we don't have a coherent identity?
ever heard of 'the ugly American' ?
I'm afraid we do have a contradictory identity
on the one hand our lifestyle and wealth is envied
and on the other hand we are deeply resented, seen as shallow, & crass & etc.
but it gets worse: imperialistic -- with good reason
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
we don't have a coherent identity?
ever heard of 'the ugly American' ?
I'm afraid we do have a contradictory identity
on the one hand our lifestyle and wealth is envied
and on the other hand we are deeply resented, seen as shallow, & crass & etc.
but it gets worse: imperialistic -- with good reason
Yes, that's all true. To some people, we have comparatively more freedoms. To some, our riches are envied. To many others, we are resented variously for our decadence, our shallowness, the shabbiness of our culture, our ultramaterialism, etc. I think to most we are seen as imperialistic, everyone except maybe most Americans. By the way, this is the perspective of many Muslims around the world, which lends credence to the notion that when the politically-minded radicals among them attack us, they are perhaps not crazy towelheads. Not justifying, just a thought. But the U.S. has had ample opportunity to learn lessons and never done it. And so on and on we blunder, and we'll see in November who will lead us in our blundering.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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the books of Chalmers Johnson document this stuff
Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic
etc.
books are on Amazon -also videos on Youtube
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_8/156-3035837-9011411?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=chalmers+johnson&sprefix=chalmers%2Caps%2C167
"The term "blowback," invented by the CIA, refers to the unintended results of American actions abroad. In this incisive and controversial book, Chalmers Johnson lays out in vivid detail the dangers faced by our overextended empire, which insists on projecting its military power to every corner of the earth and using American capital and markets to force global economic integration on its own terms. From a case of rape by U.S. servicemen in Okinawa to our role in Asia's financial crisis, from our early support for Saddam Hussein to our conduct in the Balkans, Johnson reveals the ways in which our misguided policies are planting the seeds of future disaster.
In a new edition that addresses recent international events from September 11 to the war in Iraq, this now classic book remains as prescient and powerful as ever."
and of course as we watch the election/media/circus there is no mention of any of the elephants in the room
fortunately I have no TV, and only NPR radio, (with handy off switch) & internet, so that greatly reduces my exposure to the media/circus
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chalmers Ashby Johnson (August 6, 1931 – November 20, 2010)[1] was an American author and professor emeritus of the University of California, San Diego. He served in the Korean War, was a consultant for the CIA from 1967 to 1973, and chaired the Center for Chinese Studies at the University of California, Berkeley from 1967 to 1972.[2] He was also president and co-founder with Steven Clemons of the Japan Policy Research Institute (now based at the University of San Francisco), an organization promoting public education about Japan and Asia.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Yeah, Uncle Sam has had his fingers in a lot of different pies. I also like Morris Berman and Noam Chomsky on the subject of American hegemony and (what is basically) lawlessness. It is, as you know, a long story.
TV news isn't really news, because they don't actually report anything anymore. I catch a little CNN and MSNBC every once in a while (I never watch Fox News), and it's just not journalism anymore. It's been years since any international news was reported on any of these outlets. I've heard the term "newzak" coined, and I think it's a good word. Just mindless drivel only fit for elevator or background sound.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
demiu5 said: an oligarchy masquerading as a democracy under a system that is supposed to be a democratic republic
This is a really good point, by the way. I would translate it as: The United States is a plutocratic oligopoly pretending to be a pure democracy which was founded as a federal republic.
We don't even have a coherent identity.
we absolutely have coherent identity. USA has multiple coherent identities. much of it stems from this:
DICKINSON We cannot found a country based on war! ADAMS We cannot found a country that is afraid to fight! CONGRESSMAN Rabble!
CONGRESSMEN Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble Rabble! Oh my, it's Benjamin Franklin. It's Benjamin Franklin. It's Benjamin Franklin. CARTMAN Oh, it's Benjamin Franklin. It's Benjamin Franklin. It's Benjamin Franklin. HANCOCK Mr. Franklin, where do you stand on the war issue? FRANKLIN I believe that if we are to form a new country, we cannot be a country that appears war-hungry and violent to the rest of the world. However, we also cannot be a country that appears weak and unwilling to fight to the rest of the world. So, what if we form a country that appears to want both? JEFFERSON Yes. Yes of course. We go to war, and protest going to war at the same time. DICKINSON Right. If the people of our new country are allowed to do whatever they wish, then some will support the war and some will protest it. FRANKLIN And that means that as a nation, we could go to war with whomever we wished, but at the same time, act like we didn't want to. If we allow the people to protest what the government does, then the country will be forever blameless. ADAMS It's like having your cake, and eating it, too. CONGRESSMAN 2 Think of it: an entire nation founded on saying one thing and doing another. HANCOCK And we will call that country the United States of America.
From 'I'm a :Little Bit Country" South Park Season 7
one of the most poignant scenes in South Park.
the above only speaks to a few root identities, i perceive there to be many, many more.
if the USA was a person, it would be committed, strapped up, fed a constant supply of pharmaceuticals, and treated as sub-human/like a caged animal. highly schizophrenic; a danger to itself and others
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Clinton v. Trump [Re: demiu5]
#23655053 - 09/18/16 09:09 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, given that we have multiple, highly schizophrenic identities, one could make the case that our identity is not coherent. Semantics, whatever.
You make a great point.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 6 hours, 18 minutes
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I enjoy this guys tangents and thought he made a few good points If you get a chance listen to his Tiny Desk appearance it's pretty great IMO
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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