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OfflineFerather
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Carbon and energy sources * 1
    #23651045 - 09/16/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I have semi compiled a list of currently used carbon sources and additives.
I would like to know any other ones that currently work.

  • Carbonated elements, calcium carbonate (lime).
  • Ready carbohydrates, sugar, starch.
  • Plant fiber, cellulose, lignin.
  • Oleoresins, plant resins.
  • Bicarbonate.


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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Edited by Ferather (09/26/16 02:00 PM)


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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Ferather]
    #23651518 - 09/16/16 08:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Charcoal? Been wanting to add some to substrate just to see.


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Quadman]
    #23651524 - 09/16/16 08:49 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Plant oil like canola or flax, 1-5%


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: drake89] * 1
    #23651545 - 09/16/16 09:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Organic fertilizers, primarily nitrogen. I use Plant or garden tone from Espoma because it has a blend of fertilizers and trace minerals. Also wheat bran, which is primarily fiber protein and fat is a good additive.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23652468 - 09/17/16 08:51 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quadman said:
Charcoal? Been wanting to add some to substrate just to see.




Very clever, good idea I like it. Carbon wood or plants, powdered. :thumbup:



Quote:

drake89 said:
Plant oil like canola or flax, 1-5%




Is this classed as essential oils?



Quote:

Gr0wer said:
Organic fertilizers, primarily nitrogen. I use Plant or garden tone from Espoma because it has a blend of fertilizers and trace minerals. Also wheat bran, which is primarily fiber protein and fat is a good additive.




I'm looking to add carbon specifically, I have all other nutrients via elemental (chemical) fertilizers.
I'm avoiding organic fertilizers, due to added probiotic bacteria eating nutrients.

No need for bacterial conversion, just add the nutrients required.
The point for me is to restrict carbon sources, to mycelial.

I could add carbohydrates, like bran.
But then I get bacteria.


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Ferather]
    #23652535 - 09/17/16 09:16 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Forest fires in the states bring on large flushes of wild mushrooms. So wood ash or charcoal should do something? If using wood ash I've read it should not get wet or rained on prior to use.

Essential oil would be the aromatic oil from growing plant material. Flax oil would not although would have some aromatic compounds.


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Edited by Quadman (09/17/16 09:22 AM)


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Quadman]
    #23652548 - 09/17/16 09:22 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

That's very potent information, thanks Quadman. Details on charcoal here.
Tons of carbon, which is what mycelium use to produce energy.


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineFerather
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Ferather]
    #23679899 - 09/26/16 01:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

So going deeper into energy and energy sources, it turns out three key elements are required.
Carbon(C), Hydrogen(H) and Oxygen(O), which are used to produce and store energy.

The mycelium will breakdown sources, then use or re-arrange them.
We know mycelium will store Glycogen as energy.

Glycogen Formula: C24 | H42 | O21

----

Lets take a look at a few sources.

Carbohydrates, varied: [ C6 | H10 | O5 ] x.
Polyphenols, varied: [ C6 | H5 | O1 ] x.

Theophylline: C7 | H8 | N4 | O2.
Theobromine: C7 | H8 | N4 | O2.
Caffeine: C8 | H10 | N4 | O2.
Theaflavin: C29 | H24 | O12.
Tannins: C76 | H52 | O46.
Catechin: C15 | H14 | O6.
Carotene: C40 | H56.

The list goes on, there is also oleoresin's, plant resins and acids.


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Invisibleflyontoast
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Ferather] * 1
    #23680130 - 09/26/16 03:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Quadman said:
Forest fires in the states bring on large flushes of wild mushrooms. So wood ash or charcoal should do something? If using wood ash I've read it should not get wet or rained on prior to use.




I am pretty sure that mushrooms that follow forest fires (like morels) have less to do with the ash and more to do with their mycorrhizal relationship with the plants and trees that are destroyed in the fires. Once their mycorrhizal relationship ends with the now dead tree, they receive less nutrients and therefore go to fruit. But I've videos where people blend ash with dried morels and spread it outside and do get flushes the following year, so maybe ash does stimulate something.
On a similar note, charcoal, or called biochar when specifically produced for agriculture, can actually cause a boom in bacteria populations because it is so porous (provides an enormous habitat to surface area ration). That's also why volcanic valley's are such rich agricultural land. So maybe that's why you've heard that it's recommended it not get wet; it would boost the bacterial population?

I'm happy to test adding ash to my winter grows since we'll have to fire-up the wood stove soon!

Quote:

Ferather said:
I'm avoiding organic fertilizers, due to added probiotic bacteria eating nutrients.
No need for bacterial conversion, just add the nutrients required.
The point for me is to restrict carbon sources, to mycelial.




Are you sure probiotic bacteria consume the same nutrience that a myc would? Bacterial alone would take months (saw dust) if not a full year (chips) to decompose wood. Also, the seaweed fertilizer in your antibacterial tea is replete with bacteria, and types of bacteria that I doubt the tea inhibits. I'm just curious as to, 1) how you concluded that soil bacteria actually compete with myc (as oppose to help, like with Stropharia rugosoannulata), and 2) how you know that you aren't cultivating healthy bacterial colonies. For sure any casing layer in an outdoor grow is filled with soil bacteria.
I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to reconcile my understanding of agriculture with fungi.


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:mushroom: My trade list :mushroom:
Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment:
Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors.
Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains.
Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us  :skol:


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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: flyontoast]
    #23680269 - 09/26/16 03:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Oh this reminds me I was reading a scientific paper the other day. Mushrooms need C:N in a ratio of 35:1 . Moving these numbers either way can influence mycelium or fruit bodies. Will have to find that again ,


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: flyontoast]
    #23680422 - 09/26/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

flyontoast said:
Are you sure probiotic bacteria consume the same nutrience that a myc would? Bacterial alone would take months (saw dust) if not a full year (chips) to decompose wood. Also, the seaweed fertilizer in your antibacterial tea is replete with bacteria, and types of bacteria that I doubt the tea inhibits. I'm just curious as to, 1) how you concluded that soil bacteria actually compete with myc (as oppose to help, like with Stropharia rugosoannulata), and 2) how you know that you aren't cultivating healthy bacterial colonies. For sure any casing layer in an outdoor grow is filled with soil bacteria.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, just trying to reconcile my understanding of agriculture with fungi.




Normal (left) took 12 days, Added probiotic (right) took 20 days:

   

Was a rubbish result and a painful waste of time.

The bacteria in this seaweed is cold loving.
Dies at 50-60°C for 30-40 minutes.


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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Invisibleflyontoast
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Ferather]
    #23680849 - 09/26/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferather said:
Normal (left) took 12 days, Added probiotic (right) took 20 days:

Was a rubbish result and a painful waste of time.

The bacteria in this seaweed is cold loving.
Dies at 50-60°C for 30-40 minutes.




Super interesting on both accounts. Thanks!


--------------------
:mushroom: My trade list :mushroom:
Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment:
Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors.
Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains.
Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us  :skol:


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: flyontoast]
    #24089951 - 02/14/17 12:48 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Other than those listed, is there any new ideas for a carbon source for use with agar.
I can enrich some water, I could try ash or lime and go higher pH.

So it can be acidic, in fact that may be better.


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineDutchMyco
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Ferather]
    #24092631 - 02/15/17 11:07 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

I doubt any fungi uses mineral carbonates or elemental carbon as a carbon source. Most fungi that attack rock seem to be mycorrhizal or lichen and thus get their energy trough photosynthesis.
There is something about turkey tail and coal, but I believe this is about low-grade coals like browncoal which I think is still mostly organic but high in carbon.

Do you have a goal in mind? Or is it about semi random experimenting? Else maybe making your own potato dextrose agar might be fun and useful.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: DutchMyco] * 1
    #24092642 - 02/15/17 11:16 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DutchMyco said:
I doubt any fungi uses mineral carbonates or elemental carbon as a carbon source.



Both Golden oyster and King oyster will re-assemble Calcium-carbonate.
As well as magnesium-carbonate, given certain nutrients.

Quote:

DutchMyco said:
Do you have a goal in mind? Or is it about semi random experimenting? Else maybe making your own potato dextrose agar might be fun and useful.



To avoid starch and sugars and find an alternative (DIY) recipe, so yes it's experimental, but with purpose.


Side note: Live Trichoderma also accelerates when lime water is added to a substrate.


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineDutchMyco
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Ferather]
    #24093136 - 02/15/17 03:26 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

I believe calcium is needed for growth and metabolism of organic carbohydrates but not in the form of calcium carbonate as a food source/carbon source itself. It wil precipitate as calcium carbonate again, or be processed by producing organic acids like oxalic acid, in which the oxalate will require an extra carbon input.

Why do you want to get rid of starch and sugars? I guess with agar, working sterile will always be required. But maybe you can get something to work with a cellulose and peptone mix, but if possible I doubt it would be worth the effort.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: DutchMyco]
    #24093162 - 02/15/17 03:32 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

:takingnotes:


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineBry Bry
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Ferather]
    #24093770 - 02/15/17 07:43 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Dunno if it would be carbon but have you considered dry hardwood leaves?


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OfflineBry Bry
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Bry Bry]
    #24093798 - 02/15/17 07:54 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

"Loaded with many deep-earth minerals, leaves are rich in carbon, calcium, silicon, potassium, and trace elements."

https://mineralizedgardens.com/save-those-leaves.html

"Thinking only about nitrogen, represented by the first number of the nutrient analysis on fertilizer containers, dry oak leaves applied as a fertilizer would have a temporary negative effect. Their high carbon, low nitrogen ratio (C:N), about 60:1, would cause a nitrogen “draft” — temporary shortage  — because soil organisms consume available nitrogen while decomposing organic matter.  They require  a balance of about 30:1 for optimum activity."

http://napavalleyregister.com/lifestyles/home-and-garden/columnists/bill-pramuk/oak-leaf-mulch-as-a-fertilizer/article_1f0eb272-0168-11e3-9912-001a4bcf887a.html


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Bry Bry]
    #24094499 - 02/16/17 04:36 AM (6 years, 11 months ago)

I've done tea leaves and peptide agar, the good-bad news is tea contains 3.14% "N".



--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Carbon sources [Re: Ferather]
    #24120607 - 02/26/17 07:21 AM (6 years, 10 months ago)

I'm listing some C:N ratios, I found here, and also some nice charts here (scroll down)

Clear winner is Newspaper pellets. However they still require enrichment.
Optimum value seems to be 50:1, wood needs more than paper.

Newspaper, shredded - 175:1
Cardboard, shredded - 350:1
Wood chips - 400:1
Sawdust - 325:1


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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