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cr1s1s

Registered: 09/06/14
Posts: 187
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Inocuole]
#23650426 - 09/16/16 12:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: Okay, to be fair, there is one REALLY good time to say "What is grain?"
Right after Alex Trebek says "Whole these make up 95% of household cereals and pet food."
Edited by cr1s1s (09/16/16 12:56 PM)
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WeavieWonder
Time Travel Sucks



Registered: 08/18/16
Posts: 1,455
Loc: USA
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: cr1s1s]
#23650548 - 09/16/16 01:38 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nerd:30.
For our purposes in mycology, we use whole cereal grains for the most part.
A cereal is any grass cultivated for the edible components of its grain (botanically, a type of fruit called a caryopsis), composed of the endosperm, germ, and bran. Cereal grains are grown in greater quantities and provide more food energy worldwide than any other type of crop;[1] they are therefore staple crops. Some plants often referred to as cereals, like buckwheat and quinoa, are considered instead pseudocereals, since they are not grasses, however they are still considered grains.
In their natural form (as in whole grain), they are a rich source of vitamins, minerals, carbohydrates, fats, oils, and protein. When refined by the removal of the bran and germ, the remaining endosperm is mostly carbohydrate. In some developing nations, grain in the form of rice, wheat, millet, or maize constitutes a majority of daily sustenance. In developed nations, cereal consumption is moderate and varied but still substantial. - Wikipedia
The grains are used as food source/growing medium to grow and expand your fungus of choice. When the right conditions are met, the fungus will produce fruit bodies(mushrooms).
The PF Tek is the only tek that I know of that doesn't use whole grains to do this. Instead it calls for brown rice flour(BRF), which is a product from whole grain brown rice, mixed with vermiculite, and water.
The PF Tek might be a good place to start. The start up cost is low and is easy to execute provided you can follow directions. It's a great intro into the hobby, and don't have to invest a lot to figure out whether it's something you are going to be into or not.
IF you decide to skip the PF Tek and start with whole grains, rye berries would be a good one to start with. Rye berries are probably the most commonly used grain for mushroom cultivation. There is an ocean of information on how to use and prepare it, and plenty of members of this forum from which to ask questions.
Good luck!!
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Mushierage
SWIM Sinker



Registered: 06/29/16
Posts: 1,094
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Inocuole]
#23650639 - 09/16/16 02:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: Okay, to be fair, there is one REALLY good time to say "What is grain?"
Right after Alex Trebek says "Whole these make up 95% of household cereals and pet food."

-------------------- Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup. OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.
  
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NumeroEno
I come from the land of lizards



Registered: 07/24/14
Posts: 9,652
Loc: Gamehendge
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: WeavieWonder]
#23650689 - 09/16/16 02:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
WeavieWonder said:
IF you decide to skip the PF Tek and start with whole grains, rye berries would be a good one to start with. Rye berries are probably the most commonly used grain for mushroom cultivation. There is an ocean of information on how to use and prepare it, and plenty of members of this forum from which to ask questions.
Good luck!!
Gonna have to disagree with you on the rye. Whole oats are a lot more forgiving than rye IMO.
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Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield! What shall we say, shall we call it by a name As well to count the angels dancing on a pin Water bright as the sky from which it came And the name is on the earth that takes it in DOG FOOD AGAR MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: kaius711]
#23650727 - 09/16/16 02:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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i like to think of grains this way...
pf tek uses brown rice flower for food. vermiculite for water.
grains are both!! they give you the water the myc needs and the food. its like a 2 for 1. also when doing anything with grains.. each grain is its own small inoculation point. where pf cakes are all thick and chunky and not good for spawning.(they work, just not as well as grains)
Quote:
kaius711 said: Yes i think the first step is to get some sleep haha the information is becoming increasingly agitating as it is often overwhelming
its overwhelming because of the amount of BS that gets posted on the forums you search for 'grains' and you get directed to a thread that asks..'what are grains' not trying to hate but yah.....
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Rooster Cogburn
Ranger

Registered: 07/19/16
Posts: 265
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: NumeroEno]
#23650728 - 09/16/16 02:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Take note from the spawn industry, millet and sorghum is what most big spawn companies use, they seem to think those grains are superior for a bunch of different reasons, nutritional value vs. starch, endospore count, preparation, cost, weight vs. volume and inoculation points. I personally like sorghum the best.
Edited by Rooster Cogburn (09/16/16 03:00 PM)
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NumeroEno
I come from the land of lizards



Registered: 07/24/14
Posts: 9,652
Loc: Gamehendge
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23650736 - 09/16/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I use millet for G1 and G2 and oats for G3. Milo is a type of sorghum, and sometimes I use this cheap WBS that's mostly milo. I like it. I was thinking about adding some WBS/milo to my oats to create a more complete nutritional profile, but I have good results with oats. Plus they're so damn easy to prep. I just heat a pot of water to a boil, cook the oats for 30 minutes, strain, load into bags, and autoclave for 4 hours. I've never had any problems with bacteria using oats, but my grows with rye and WBS were constantly plagued with bacillus outbreaks, even after overnight soaks and 3 hour PC cycles. I've only used oats since I got the autoclave, and I'm thinking of mixing it up a bit but if I use anything else in my spawn it will probably be straight milo from the feed store.
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Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield! What shall we say, shall we call it by a name As well to count the angels dancing on a pin Water bright as the sky from which it came And the name is on the earth that takes it in DOG FOOD AGAR MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP
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Rooster Cogburn
Ranger

Registered: 07/19/16
Posts: 265
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: NumeroEno]
#23650762 - 09/16/16 03:13 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I hear ya about the rye and WBS with bacteria. What I buy is sold as milo at the feed store, I love it, I just do the soaking method(12-15 hours) and drain out the water and load into bags, I do a 2 1/2 hour run usually and my bags are usually 8 lb.'s, 6 in the 941 and 4 in the 921. If you end up buying some milo Eno, I highly suggest doing gr0wers grain prep, it's the easiest I have found and comes out perfect everytime, I refer people to his tek a lot so sorry if any of you guys are tired of seeing me plug it https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22524362/fpart/1/vc/1
Edited by Rooster Cogburn (09/16/16 03:15 PM)
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23650764 - 09/16/16 03:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sorry OP.. might've been a little hard on you. Just.. you know.. try harder in the future.
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NumeroEno
I come from the land of lizards



Registered: 07/24/14
Posts: 9,652
Loc: Gamehendge
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23650769 - 09/16/16 03:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said: I hear ya about the rye and WBS with bacteria. What I buy is sold as milo at the feed store, I love it, I just do the soaking method(12-15 hours) and drain out the water and load into bags, I do a 2 1/2 hour run usually and my bags are usually 8 lb.'s, 6 in the 941 and 4 in the 921. If you end up buying some milo Eno, I highly suggest doing gr0wers grain prep, it's the easiest I have found and comes out perfect everytime, I refer people to his tek a lot so sorry if any of you guys are tired of seeing me plug it https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/22524362/fpart/1/vc/1
I'll pick up a bag next time I go to the feed store. I'm always into trying new things
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Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield! What shall we say, shall we call it by a name As well to count the angels dancing on a pin Water bright as the sky from which it came And the name is on the earth that takes it in DOG FOOD AGAR MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP
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Smoothcat
Renegade-master



Registered: 10/07/15
Posts: 1,254
Last seen: 5 months, 28 days
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Inocuole]
#23650783 - 09/16/16 03:25 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: Well I'm more annoyed by questions that somebody could just ask the most ignorant person in their family and still get the correct answer, than strictly cultivation related questions.
Like... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain
Shockingly difficult.
I lol'd
Seriously tho when you start this you need to read till your eyes bleed, get your supplies in check then start trying shit and asking questions. Read, then read some more!
-------------------- Back once again with the ill behaviour Links I like
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WeavieWonder
Time Travel Sucks



Registered: 08/18/16
Posts: 1,455
Loc: USA
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: NumeroEno]
#23651031 - 09/16/16 05:24 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
NumeroEno said:
Quote:
WeavieWonder said:
IF you decide to skip the PF Tek and start with whole grains, rye berries would be a good one to start with. Rye berries are probably the most commonly used grain for mushroom cultivation. There is an ocean of information on how to use and prepare it, and plenty of members of this forum from which to ask questions.
Good luck!!
Gonna have to disagree with you on the rye. Whole oats are a lot more forgiving than rye IMO.
How so? I am interested in working with whole oats in the future because they are more readily available in my area than rye berries, and are cheap as fuck.
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: WeavieWonder]
#23651057 - 09/16/16 05:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Meh they're both fine. There's really no such thing as a grain that's better than the others. It just depends on what you want out of your grains.
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Mushierage
SWIM Sinker



Registered: 06/29/16
Posts: 1,094
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Mad Season]
#23651510 - 09/16/16 08:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Simply for ease of use and convenience, I have to suggest triple cleaned oats. They are awesomely forgiving, and the prep is fucking dauntless. I'm literally producing 3 quarts of prepped and sterilized whole oats every couple days, and each time, they look absolutely flawless. (Not too wet at all, perfectly cooked innards with a waxy husk and virtually no outside moisture. When you get it in the jar, some the innards moisture will evaporate inside and produce plenty enough moisture). All prep is done using Inocs Intergalactic Space Oats tek in his sig.
Perfect example of a grain prep tek that is both easy for newbies and vets alike.
-------------------- Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup. OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.
  
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NumeroEno
I come from the land of lizards



Registered: 07/24/14
Posts: 9,652
Loc: Gamehendge
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Mushierage]
#23651541 - 09/16/16 09:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I prep oats by boiling for 30 minutes, straining, loading into bags, and then PCing. No soak, no air drying, no skimming dirty shit off the top of the water. Oh, and a 50lb bag of whole oats costs less than half of what a 50lb bag of rye costs, out here anyway. I'm thinking about adding some milo to my grain spawn, but as far as cleanliness, ease of prep, and cost goes, oats win hands down.
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Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield! What shall we say, shall we call it by a name As well to count the angels dancing on a pin Water bright as the sky from which it came And the name is on the earth that takes it in DOG FOOD AGAR MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP
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Mushierage
SWIM Sinker



Registered: 06/29/16
Posts: 1,094
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: NumeroEno]
#23651605 - 09/16/16 09:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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OP, here is an example of well prepped whole oats and how far they can take you. These jars are only 7 days old, and already at ~15% or so. Now imagine having 50lbs of this shit, and taking each of these quart jars, and using grain to grain processes to expand these 3 jars to 30 jars.
That's why you want a giant bag of high quality well priced grain.
-------------------- Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup. OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.
  
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NumeroEno
I come from the land of lizards



Registered: 07/24/14
Posts: 9,652
Loc: Gamehendge
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Mushierage]
#23651614 - 09/16/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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My ~5qt oat spawn bags colonize in about 5 days when noc'd with a pint of millet. I've never, not even once, had bacteria on oats, but I've had lots and lots of bacteria with rye, wheat, and WBS.
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Let it grow! Let it grow! Greatly yield! What shall we say, shall we call it by a name As well to count the angels dancing on a pin Water bright as the sky from which it came And the name is on the earth that takes it in DOG FOOD AGAR MY ELECTRIC INOCULATION LOOP
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: NumeroEno]
#23651617 - 09/16/16 09:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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While I agree, there's many downsides to oats too. Just ask poor pasty . Large grain size has a higher potential for endospores to survive the PC. It's harder for heat to get to the center of the grains due to the space between the grains. Air is an insulator. Rye also has this problem. Larger grain size also means each jar has much less weight. Wbs has almost twice as much weight to it per qt, and many more inoc points. That's great for people with limited space. 1 jar seems to go much further IME. It also has much less air between the grains.
Also, any grain you can just do a boil hydration. There's many people who do wbs that way, and it's more like 10-15 minutes of boiling for WBS/millet or they get too sticky. Oats I do 30-45 minutes. I know you can do it with rye too.
While your opinions are that oats are awesome, there's downsides as well, especially endospores IME. Everyone has different needs. That's why there's no best grain. Just go try as many as you can, and choose what has done best for you. Everyone has different grains locally, that have different levels of endospores and whatnot.
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Mushierage
SWIM Sinker



Registered: 06/29/16
Posts: 1,094
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Mad Season]
#23651633 - 09/16/16 09:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I actually never boil my oats whatsoever. Only soak in boiled water for 6 hours, drain, flash boil water and then dump back over the grain again to let it soak for another couple minutes. Drain and spread, and let evaporation do its thing. It'll perfectly prep the outside for jars, while having cooked the innards to a lovely grey.
I do agree that each grain is not inherently the "best", but you can go to any grain producer in the US and get whole oats about. The point to the OP wasn't necessarily the best grain or even the most nutritious for mycelium, but for what it is, ease of prep, availability, and cost, somebody getting into grain couldn't ask for much more. That much grain means you have a lot to practice with. And if you fail? You learn. And hopefully do better next time, without being out a lot of time and effort, or money.
-------------------- Don't like researching posts? Read this! . Also, if you're new and your posts contain the words: Humidifer, incubator, air-stone, or heater, then you need to read and UTFSE before asking people to review your setup. OR... You should be cultivating reptiles and fish, not mushrooms.
  
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: What is "grain" and how is it different to PF cakes [Re: Mushierage]
#23651639 - 09/16/16 09:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah honestly, my favorite grain is wheat lately. Very clean. Exact same prep. And much cleaner here. I do like oats, but even the triple cleaned shit has too much bacteria for my liking.
That's not to say it's the same for everyone. I know Eno is pretty good at growing. And he has had no bacteria issues with it. I just have had much more bacteria in it than any of the smaller grains I've worked with.
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