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InvisibleMaximillion
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I want to get something straight about clones
    #23645444 - 09/14/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I work with agar on the regular, but I don't have any clones.
I've been avoiding cloning my fruits because I wasn't certain of what it actually does.
So, I'm going to explain what I think it does, and you guys could tell me wether or not I'm right.

If I clone a sample from a large fruit, that plate grows out, and then I use it to colonize some jars which will be spawned to a bulk sub, will all of the new fruits be the same size and grow at the same rate as the original fruit that was cloned?

I assume that is how it works otherwise what's the point?


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InvisibleInocuole
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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Maximillion]
    #23645457 - 09/14/16 06:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Not necessarily.  A clone has multiple sets of genetics, not unlike the mushroom that you took it from.  There will be more consistency, but by what degree, it's hard to say.

This is a clone.
First flush

Second flush


This is that same clone.



They don't always do the same thing.  But they have a much higher chance of doing so than MS.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Inocuole]
    #23645492 - 09/14/16 06:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I know cannabis better than mushrooms, hoping to change this.  Seems canna clones look different and have variations due to environment.  Genetics are the code how to respond to environment, nothing more and nothing less.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Inocuole]
    #23645493 - 09/14/16 06:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

One thing to note is that clones provide consistent results. Some clones will be consistently bad. Some will consistently suck invitro. Some will demand casing while others will dislike it. They are not a magic bullet, they will just provide a level of familiarity to the grow. It's up to the cultivator to figure out if it's worth keeping and how to get the most from it.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Morel Guy]
    #23645496 - 09/14/16 06:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
I know cannabis better than mushrooms, hoping to change this.  Seems canna clones look different and have variations due to environment.  Genetics are the code how to respond to environment, nothing more and nothing less.




:thumbup:


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Maximillion] * 1
    #23645573 - 09/14/16 07:12 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

In addition to environment there's also a certain amount of stochasticity in gene expression.
That is to say all organisms are affected to some small degree by completely random chance.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Greg]
    #23645614 - 09/14/16 07:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The fact that you can isolate further past the point of a clone says everything about their consistency.  They are more consistent than from sopres by a landslide, but an isolate is yet even more consistent since it only has one set of genetics.  Unlike cannabis clones, there is more than one set of genetics at play in the average mushroom clone.

In the same vein, a clone could offer more differing reactions to environmental conditions than an isolate might, since it could plausibly have a set of genetics within, where each respond to different conditions separately.

Sometimes a clone is better, sometimes an isolate is better, but one is significantly easier to get a hold of, so most work with clones.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Inocuole]
    #23645673 - 09/14/16 07:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

also be sure to test your clones on a small scale. some clones will not be potent so you don't want to waste a bunch of time.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: FriedEgg]
    #23645721 - 09/14/16 08:24 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

FriedEgg said:
also be sure to test your clones on a small scale. some clones will not be potent so you don't want to waste a bunch of time.





You can say that again, dont forget to check potency.

I usually test my clones in a full mono tub though, since thats how I run them


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: mushpunx]
    #23645899 - 09/14/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

How come a clone can be shit for potency if what you cloned  was potent as fuck?


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Boogieman47]
    #23645904 - 09/14/16 09:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Generally if the clone was potent the resulting culture will be as well.  Every once in a while it's possible that the potency factor was a one-off and the dominant trait in that clone doesn't represent what you selected for.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Inocuole]
    #23645925 - 09/14/16 09:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Ok that makes sense


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Boogieman47]
    #23646027 - 09/14/16 10:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Much love to all of you! Keeping all that in mind, I'm guessing it's much easier to get an isolate by transferring cloned mycelium than it would be starting from spore. Is there a process for selecting the right branch of genetics when making transfers or would you have to grow out every plate at least once to see what your gene pool is looking like?

Would it be easier to isolate genetics by cloning clones?


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Edited by Maximillion (09/14/16 10:28 PM)


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InvisibleFriedEggS
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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Maximillion]
    #23646293 - 09/15/16 12:31 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

i just isolate the fastest clean mycelium until i have something that looks close to a monoculture. but it doesnt have to be an actual monoculture. then, i grow it out in 1 full size tub and test the potency. if it's good, i do another tub just to make sure. if it's good the second time, i keep it. i put it on a slant for storage and then repeat the process. after isolating 15 or 20 perfect clones, i begin to wonder what i'm doing with my life.

you don't want to clone a clone. you would run into senescence.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: FriedEgg]
    #23646742 - 09/15/16 07:27 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Clones taken from a MS will have a variety of results. However, those results will be relatively consistent.
Clones taken from a monoculture will give you the same results every time.

I'm not sure about taking clones from a clone grow. I'm also curious about that


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: TedTheHighlighter]
    #23646753 - 09/15/16 07:36 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

generally, u wouldn't clone from a "monoculture" grow because….you already have that culture (the monoculture plate that started your grain master), just like you wouldn't clone from a clone grow, because you already have that culture.  so even if senescence wasn't an issue, doing either of those is just more work.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23646772 - 09/15/16 07:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
generally, u wouldn't clone from a "monoculture" grow because….you already have that culture (the monoculture plate that started your grain master), just like you wouldn't clone from a clone grow, because you already have that culture.  so even if senescence wasn't an issue, doing either of those is just more work.



Yeah, you right.
The reason I was curious about cloning a clone is because I wonder if that would narrow down genetics. A clone grow will probably have some varied results so cloning it further from another desirable fruit would theoretically narrow down the variance in the genetics to give you even better results.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: TedTheHighlighter]
    #23646782 - 09/15/16 07:57 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

could be.  I think it would be better to either "isolate" the clone further so it no longer sectors, or find a different clone that performs consistently regardless.

only time I would clone a clone is if I lost the OG culture


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: blindingleaf]
    #23646824 - 09/15/16 08:20 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
could be.  I think it would be better to either "isolate" the clone further so it no longer sectors, or find a different clone that performs consistently regardless.

only time I would clone a clone is if I lost the OG culture





Me too. Ive had to do this before because o f poor labeling :facepalm:


  When I find a clone I like  I keep a master plate in the fridge and then I work on the culture until it stops sectoring. If I like how it performs after a couple grows that will be the culture I slant
I like to "stabilize" the clone as Ive heard it referred to


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: mushpunx]
    #23646866 - 09/15/16 08:48 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

How do you test potency without eating the fruit? If you eat it you cant clone it.
Do you guys take a sample and THEN eat it? That way if it was potent you have the sample ready?


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Shroom_Goddess]
    #23646919 - 09/15/16 09:15 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Do a small grow and eat those fruits.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Shroom_Goddess]
    #23646922 - 09/15/16 09:16 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroom_Goddess said:
How do you test potency without eating the fruit? If you eat it you cant clone it.
Do you guys take a sample and THEN eat it? That way if it was potent you have the sample ready?



Good question I think its done using Chromatography but I'm not 100% sure


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Shroom_Goddess]
    #23646928 - 09/15/16 09:18 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroom_Goddess said:
How do you test potency without eating the fruit? If you eat it you cant clone it.
Do you guys take a sample and THEN eat it? That way if it was potent you have the sample ready?




You could do either. If the fruit/cluster was large enough for a proper dose you could eat the fruit after youve put your piece of tissue to agar.
If you cloned from a pin or small fruit you dont have that option however.

I do a small grow with each of my clone cultures, if they perform well enough to be a possible keeper I will sample the fruits for potency.

Its hard when I have lots of clones/isolates to test, I have to enlist trusted friends to help me out


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Shroom_Goddess]
    #23646947 - 09/15/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I have a feeling the best way to test potency would be to eat more than one of the same fruit. I wouldnt be able to gague a fruits potency by eating just one mushroom. I probably wouldn't even trip. And if you ate it along side other fruits from ms you certainly wouldnt be able to gauge it.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: ComebackKid]
    #23647028 - 09/15/16 10:04 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Isn't growing from an isolate like a shot in the dark though? Once you stop seeing sectoring that means you've refined the genetics so much that you're only left with a single strain. What if that strain sucks? Is there a way of monitoring the progress of your gene pool during the transferring? I can't think of a way for that to even be possible, so it's got to be hit or miss Every time.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Maximillion]
    #23647041 - 09/15/16 10:09 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

If the isolated strain sucks you throw it in the trash and test the next one. Typically 1 in 10 isolates might not even fruit, 2 in 10 will suck hard, 6 will be average or so, maybe 1 in 10 will kick ass. So be sure to isolate at least ten and keep the good one.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #23647131 - 09/15/16 10:50 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If the isolated strain sucks you throw it in the trash and test the next one. Typically 1 in 10 isolates might not even fruit, 2 in 10 will suck hard, 6 will be average or so, maybe 1 in 10 will kick ass. So be sure to isolate at least ten and keep the good one.





:whathesaid:


I try to take transfers from at least 10, usually 15 to 20 different sectors from a culture. Once I have each of those down to isolated strains I keep a master of each labeled and stored in my mini fridge.

I do a small grow with each and keep the winners


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: mushpunx]
    #23647207 - 09/15/16 11:22 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like a plan then. Thanks guys, it seems like a lot of work, but it will be worth it. Once I start cloning I'll put this information to good use.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Shroom_Goddess]
    #23647690 - 09/15/16 02:36 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shroom_Goddess said:
How do you test potency without eating the fruit? If you eat it you cant clone it.
Do you guys take a sample and THEN eat it? That way if it was potent you have the sample ready?




Yes.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Inocuole]
    #23647954 - 09/15/16 04:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've got a good question.
Let's say you were trying to isolate to a monoculture. This usually takes many transfers from a MS start because there's so many strains involved. Would it be beneficial to instead, grow out mushrooms from MS, take a clone, grow that out on agar, and isolate from there? It seems like that could eliminate most of the strains right off the bat by taking a nice clone and you already have favorable genetics. Also, thid could make the process faster. What are your guys' knowledge?


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: TedTheHighlighter]
    #23647969 - 09/15/16 04:07 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I would call them isolates rather than monocultures, since a monoculture is when you only have one species of a thing.  Like if you only grew carrots, you would have a monoculture of carrots.  If you avoid contams, you already have a monoculture.  You're looking for isolated genetics.

Yes, isolating from clone is a huge shortcut if you're looking to save time.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: TedTheHighlighter]
    #23647989 - 09/15/16 04:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Sote]TedTheHighlighter said:
I've got a good question.
Let's say you were trying to isolate to a monoculture. This usually takes many transfers from a MS start because there's so many strains involved. Would it be beneficial to instead, grow out mushrooms from MS, take a clone, grow that out on agar, and isolate from there? It seems like that could eliminate most of the strains right off the bat by taking a nice clone and you already have favorable genetics. Also, thid could make the process faster. What are your guys' knowledge?




Sure you can isolate from a clone if you want yes, you will reach an isolate faster, probably a better chance of fruiting strains.

  When isolating a pure culture from spores you dont want just one isolate to test. I usually end up with 10-20 isolates from a single culture. I run a test of all of them and keep the best one


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: mushpunx]
    #23648044 - 09/15/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I read somewhere.., it's better to not isolate from a clone.

They said keeping the clone as is allows the clone to perform best.

They also said that if u fruit out the individual sectors of a clone it more often performs worse than the clone as is  (all sectors fruited out at once if u will..)

I don't remember which user said that, and I'm unsure if this is fact as I have no personal experience with this myself

Maybe someone here cab verify Wether or not this is true


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: mushpunx]
    #23648061 - 09/15/16 04:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Okay so I know now that there are still multiple genetics in mushroom clone tissue, and you can obtain an isolate quicker with clone tissue on agar.

But what about the clones themselves?
Does each clone have the same genetics as the original? Or would each clone have a narrower set of genetics?

What im getting at is cloning clones rather than growing out on agar to obtain an isolate.
Is this possible? I know that cloning clones is frowned upon because you can eventually reach senescence this way but just wondering


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Raven44]
    #23648077 - 09/15/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Raven44 said:
I read somewhere.., it's better to not isolate from a clone.

They said keeping the clone as is allows the clone to perform best.

They also said that if u fruit out the individual sectors of a clone it more often performs worse than the clone as is  (all sectors fruited out at once if u will..)

I don't remember which user said that, and I'm unsure if this is fact as I have no personal experience with this myself

Maybe someone here cab verify Wether or not this is true




Yeah that's not necessarily true.  Isolating past the point of a clone means you can get better or worse traits than the clone itself depending on what you isolate out.  A  clone could very well have a set of genetics within that's holding it back, same as it could have a set of genetics that's holding it up.

Fact is that you never know what might happen when you further isolate something.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: ComebackKid]
    #23648082 - 09/15/16 04:51 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ComebackKid said:
Okay so I know now that there are still multiple genetics in mushroom clone tissue, and you can obtain an isolate quicker with clone tissue on agar.

But what about the clones themselves?
Does each clone have the same genetics as the original? Or would each clone have a narrower set of genetics?

What im getting at is cloning clones rather than growing out on agar to obtain an isolate.
Is this possible? I know that cloning clones is frowned upon because you can eventually reach senescence this way but just wondering





You're right, cloning clones will quickly leads to senescence.
To obtain an isolate you would have to transfer from the individual sectors on agar. Cloning from a clone would not work.


Its also worth noting some clones dont sector at all


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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Inocuole]
    #23648084 - 09/15/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Quote:

Raven44 said:
I read somewhere.., it's better to not isolate from a clone.

They said keeping the clone as is allows the clone to perform best.

They also said that if u fruit out the individual sectors of a clone it more often performs worse than the clone as is  (all sectors fruited out at once if u will..)

I don't remember which user said that, and I'm unsure if this is fact as I have no personal experience with this myself

Maybe someone here cab verify Wether or not this is true




Yeah that's not necessarily true.  Isolating past the point of a clone means you can get better or worse traits than the clone itself depending on what you isolate out.  A  clone could very well have a set of genetics within that's holding it back, same as it could have a set of genetics that's holding it up.

Fact is that you never know what might happen when you further isolate something.





:whathesaid:


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InvisibleComebackKid
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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: mushpunx]
    #23648111 - 09/15/16 05:06 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've noticed that with one of my clones. Was worried at first that it wasnt cube myc but some other white mold myc or something.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: ComebackKid]
    #23649977 - 09/16/16 09:27 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Wow thanks guys.


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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Shroom_Goddess]
    #23649986 - 09/16/16 09:29 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Good info ty


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OfflineFalseMaria
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Re: I want to get something straight about clones [Re: Raven44]
    #23650187 - 09/16/16 11:03 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Amazing information guys. Pretty much answers the thread I just created about potency.


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