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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor?
#23643258 - 09/13/16 10:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have read that you shouldn't expand mycelium further than G4 or G5 before it loses vigor, and that you also shouldn't take spore prints from a mushroom you've cultivated because it will lose traits from its "wild" origins. The first part, the over expanding, I can get because it kind of makes intuitive sense. But the second half, not taking spores from your cultivated mushroom, kind of flies in the face of most breeding practices in both plants and animals. If I wanted a plant to "adapt" to it's growing conditions and nutrients, you want to save your own seed. Can someone explain why this doesn't work for mushrooms? Like, if I take a spore print and make a syringe, turn it into a grain master on rye, then expand it into sorghum, and then maybe again into sorghum (or another grain), and finally into a nutrient dense fruiting substrate, shouldn't the spores from subsequent generations/fruiting body get better and ever more productive, or at least resilient, in similar growing conditions and nutrient sources? On a related note, what else qualifies as "taming" as wild mushroom?
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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TravelAgency
The ongoing "wow"


Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 4,431
Last seen: 11 months, 23 days
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: flyontoast]
#23643536 - 09/14/16 12:20 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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The spore part I've never heard of. Most people that take spore prints take them from isolated strains. The first part I'm not entirely sure why, but id imagine it has to do more with constant breaking up and recovering using up energy than it does actually stretching the mycelium.
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: TravelAgency] 1
#23643785 - 09/14/16 04:14 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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First one is dividing of cells two many times and aging of its enzymes. I've heard of the second one as well but your confusing wild traits for wanted traits. If your growing as a hobbies and for personal use only then most traits on the stain don't matter to you If you run a small mushroom farm there are traits you want to have like high BE. Or speed or fruiting at a normal temp.oysters with no would suck for hobbiest because as you point out making your own spores to save for later . But the small farm needs that trait to not keep replaceing 500 dallor air filter ever month. Once you gone form spores its all new traits and sub stains . It work never perform the same as the main isolate.
But if you want to keep the same iso then do so on agar plates just make uncommon agar every few transfers. Myc enzymes bluid immune to certain food source after so many transfers and time. This works for grains as well. If you switched grains every 3 trainfers you can do 21+ grain to grain trafers bef
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Gr0wer
always improving



Registered: 09/16/03
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Loc: El Paso, TX
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: tump]
#23644837 - 09/14/16 02:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I feel the most important part of not taking spawn too many generations is the chances of hidden contamination such as yeast or bacteria thats not super visible like green/black/red mold
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Gr0wer]
#23645027 - 09/14/16 03:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've recently learned that it can be very strain specific. A good example is Golden oyster. Golden does not like being expanded too much, it loses genetics very fast.
However its brother variant Tarragon is the opposite. It gets stronger as you expand G1-G2-G3.
Another example is Summer oyster which has lots of different variety's. Which shows it adapts genetically, and changes character.
So the conclusion is strains can be genetically weak. If you reduced genetics, spores will be weaker.
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JanuaryWolf
JW



Registered: 01/04/15
Posts: 63
Loc: North Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23645787 - 09/14/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Has anyone experienced an older culture having mutated fruit bodies?
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: JanuaryWolf]
#23645880 - 09/14/16 09:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I have. And i also know that will still air box work or using any rubbing achol that hits the culture at any time causes mutated parts.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: tump]
#23646608 - 09/15/16 05:19 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Bleach mutates fruit body's too!
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23647599 - 09/15/16 01:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Awesome info everyone, thanks.
Quote:
Ferather said: I've recently learned that it can be very strain specific. A good example is Golden oyster. Golden does not like being expanded too much, it loses genetics very fast.
However its brother variant Tarragon is the opposite. It gets stronger as you expand G1-G2-G3.
I've read (not experienced) what a strain looks like when it gets weaker. Might try pushing my strains past G5 soon. What does a strain getting "stronger" look like? Faster colonization, more rhizomatic-looking myc?
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: flyontoast]
#23648089 - 09/15/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Strong growth from a Golden clone G2:

Weak growth from a Golden clone G4:
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TravelAgency
The ongoing "wow"


Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 4,431
Last seen: 11 months, 23 days
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23648139 - 09/15/16 05:13 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Nice, same momma culture?
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: TravelAgency]
#23649523 - 09/16/16 04:10 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, from my strong outdoor grow:

I cloned a tuber.
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drake89
Mushroom Magnate



Registered: 06/26/11
Posts: 4,168
Loc: TN
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23649768 - 09/16/16 07:40 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Molecular machinery degrades as mutations accumulate during accelerated cell division. You're asking a lot of mycelium when you constantly transfer it.
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JanuaryWolf
JW



Registered: 01/04/15
Posts: 63
Loc: North Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 7 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: drake89]
#23654404 - 09/17/16 10:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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So then would cloning from a fruitbody be the same as taking a tissue of mycelium since the organism is the same age and just as "mature"?
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TravelAgency
The ongoing "wow"


Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 4,431
Last seen: 11 months, 23 days
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: JanuaryWolf]
#23654803 - 09/18/16 04:34 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Great question JW, I would believe it to be so off of an isolated strain, though less so than straight transfers, however for spores may be entirely the opposite- however I must denote this is entirely conjecture based off of my limited knowledge.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: TravelAgency]
#23654839 - 09/18/16 05:29 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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A young tissue sample that is still growing out, such as a new fruit, tuber, primordia. Is more likely to respond and grow out immediately. Teenager vs old man.
Its possible for dormant genes to be passed onto spores. However my knowledge of spores is also limited.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23657798 - 09/19/16 05:23 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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As if by destiny Golden oyster presents itself with the solution.
Here is a G5 clone to WL Tek paper block, and its fruits.

Here is the same G5, cased, put outside.

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It took about 2 months, but now full power and colour.
Triggered by heavy rainfall and high humidity. I used a wood rich compost casing.
King oyster does the same.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23660751 - 09/20/16 05:41 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Here is next day on those Golden oyster G5 outdoor fruits:

18°C - 65% Rh, high substrate water content.
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23662616 - 09/20/16 06:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sorry, but what am I observing here? I'm not being snarky, I don't know what is "the solution" to which problem? lol I like the look of those oysters coming up through the casing. I'm actually shopping around for King oysters now (might start a new thread about that soon, ie. knowing what you are buying and what to look for).
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: flyontoast]
#23664177 - 09/21/16 05:58 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Its to do with many things, and I would love explain all of them in detail. I am at work at the moment, I will explain this evening.
Here they are day 3, now 22°C - 65% Rh.

Medium Rh, High water content.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23665604 - 09/21/16 04:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok so to answer your question, Golden oyster is renowned for losing genetics. Even more so the more it is expanded. You are looking at a G5 clone.
Scroll up and compare the fruits, which looks the best? You are looking at amplified, regained fruits.
I can now clone G6 or collect spores. Carbon variation is the key.
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flyontoast
Farming food; farming time


Registered: 08/20/16
Posts: 258
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23666135 - 09/21/16 07:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: I can now clone G6 or collect spores. Carbon variation is the key.
Ok, amazing, I love how this is fleshing out. When you say G5, and in this case take another G6 clone or spores, you are getting to G5 from cloning the FRUIT? Not G5 through 5 expansions of G2G transfers? If you take a G6 clone off that mushroom, you put that on grain, let it colonize, and then into a substrate? How many generations have you pushed from a fruit before you return to agar/culture? And do you find a G6 clones from fruit more vigorous than a G6 G2G? (if you can pontificate on that last one both in terms of your golden and fungi in general, that'd be great). Sorry if that's too demanding. I'm just really obsessed with growing and understanding fungi lately.
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My trade list Looking for strong terrestrial fruiters for an outdoor beds experiment: Agaricus Bitorquis, Agaricus Augustus, Agaricus blazei/subrufescens, Stropharia Rugoso-annulata, Clitocybe Nuda (blewits), and any species or other genus that you think work outdoors. Also, any commercially viable Pleurotus, cold or hot strains. Thanks for the Q&A, trades, and all the posters & teachers that have come before us
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TravelAgency
The ongoing "wow"


Registered: 12/25/10
Posts: 4,431
Last seen: 11 months, 23 days
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: flyontoast]
#23666863 - 09/22/16 12:00 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Gorgeous!
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: flyontoast]
#23667303 - 09/22/16 07:14 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
flyontoast said: Ok, amazing, I love how this is fleshing out. When you say G5, and in this case take another G6 clone or spores, you are getting to G5 from cloning the FRUIT? Not G5 through 5 expansions of G2G transfers? If you take a G6 clone off that mushroom, you put that on grain, let it colonize, and then into a substrate? How many generations have you pushed from a fruit before you return to agar/culture? And do you find a G6 clones from fruit more vigorous than a G6 G2G? (if you can pontificate on that last one both in terms of your golden and fungi in general, that'd be great). Sorry if that's too demanding. I'm just really obsessed with growing and understanding fungi lately.
Yes this is generations of fruit clones, using the WL Tek. Start with wild bird seed spawn, fruit then clone.
No notable changes with growth or speed.
----
Paul Stamets - Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms
Sugars are essential for the healthy growth of mycelium. For media formulation, complex sources of sugars (carbohydrates and polysaccharides) are recommended. Cornsteep fermentative, cooked potatoes, wood, and barley malt extracts provide sugars and an assortment of basic minerals, vitamins, and salts helpful in the growth of the mushroom mycelium. From my experiences, simple sugars, while they may support growth, are not recommended as strains can not be maintained for long without promoting mutation factors, senescence, or loss of vitality.
A variety of nitrogen and carbohydrate based supplements can be added to fortify the media. Strains grown repeatedly on mono-specific media for prolonged periods risk limiting the repertoire of digestive enzymes to just that formulation. In other words, a strain grown on one medium adapts to it and may lose its innate ability to digest larger, more complex and variable substrates. To prevent a strain from becoming media-specific, the following compounds are added to 1 liter of MEA or PDA at various intervals, often in combinations:
Nitrogen & Carbohydrate Supplements
2 grams yeast or 1-2 grams peptone 2 grams oatmeal, oat bran 2 gram rye or wheat flour 1 gram soybean meal 1 gram spirulina 2 grams high quality dry dog food
Edited by Ferather (09/22/16 07:33 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Why too many generations loses vitality/vigor? [Re: Ferather]
#23667305 - 09/22/16 07:15 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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The answer to big fruits is less humidity, more water content.

Fruits bring up more nutrition from the substrate.
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