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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Differences between opiates and kratom
    #23642329 - 09/13/16 05:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I was going to post this in the kratom being made illegal thread, but figured it is getting OT so I will just leave it here.  Keep in mind this is coming from an opiate addict.

The main differences I see between kratom and opiates:

On kratom I can tolerate alcohol, which is a problem.  On opiates alcohol is gross.  This is one of my favorite things about opiates is that it keeps me from drinking.

On kratom I don't crave cigarettes.  With opiates I chain smoke like a meth crazed cowboy.  I've actually completely quit since I switched to kratom.

On kratom I can orgasm in a normal amount of time, where on opiates it takes forever if I can stay conscious long enough to finish.  I will say that I have a slightly diminished libido on kratom.  If I see a pretty girl I don't get a feeling in the pit of my stomach like I have to stick my cock in her or else I will cry or something (it's hard to describe), as I would when I'm clean.

If I take too much of an opiate I start nodding, falling, laying on my face, limbs falling asleep, hypnic jerks, get all puffy, pinned eyes, sometimes I will puke but it is generally not that unpleasant, just emptying my stomach then I feel better.  If I take too much kratom I get dizzy, lightheaded, and can start puking which doesn't really stop easily, and is incredibly unpleasant.  This serves as sort of a deterrent for me when I want to take more kratom than I normally would, which I have come to appreciate.  Both used to give me headaches but neither do anymore for some reason.

With opiates I get horribly sick after 24 hours, then even sicker after 48.  With kratom I could feel better after 24 hours, but not so bad, and have yet to make it to 48h.  Will get back to you on that.

--------------

People seem to think that kratom is like a weak opiate, but I would say there are just some similarities.  I would say they are similar in the way cocaine and coffee are similar.  A cocaine addict would probably find coffee to be helpful, but coffee is not weak cocaine, and if a cocaine addict took too much coffee they would feel like shit not get a moderate cocaine high.  To me there are enough differences to put it in another class of drug.

Does this seem accurate to people? 

Do you think kratom is an opoiod or just similar? 

What differences do you notice between kratom and opiates?  I am especially interested in people who have experience with both who are not addicts.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #23642615 - 09/13/16 06:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I haven't tried it either of them, but I've read a ton about them and ur post seems pretty spot on regarding the differences between those two. Kratom def don't belong in that category according to all the data on the webs..


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Invisibleplasma
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: zZZz]
    #23642697 - 09/13/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Tbh they almost feel identical (kratom and oxy)

It's been several years since I've done oxy though, but as far as I can remember they are the same


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: plasma]
    #23642726 - 09/13/16 07:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I used to say that kratom can get me about as high as 30mg oxycodone, but no more than that.  If I try to go past a certain point it is dysphoric.

There are also other subjective differences, like the side effects I mentioned.  Even on a maintenance dose of opiates I get no craving for alcohol, it just sits in my stomach and makes me feel like shit, and I smoke a ton of cigarettes.  That one is weird to me, becuase it is very stark and noticeable.  There is no way I just stopped smoking from like a 1/2 a pack per day to nothing with no effort for no reason, but I did right when I switched to kratom.  Even when I go cold turkey I still smoke some cigarettes, but they're completely unappealing now.

Anyone else notice anything like that?


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Offlinedaz01
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: plasma]
    #23642732 - 09/13/16 07:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Kratom is an opioid but in no way shape or form similar to your typical opiates and pharma opioids. Kratom also contains many, many other beneficial non-opioid alkaloids.
I used Kratom for 13~ days on quitting opiates (a serious poppy pod addiction) then stopped. It saved from me the depths of opiate hell and gave me a proper chance of getting clean.
It is simply propaganda and fear mongering when Kratom is called "The New Heroin".

Kratom is addictive but.... about 20 times less addictive than your typical opioids, with less risks and side effects.
You get addicted to heroin = your life is fucked, possibly for eternity.
Addiction to Kratom = an addiction but certainly functional and relatively healthy addiction to a plant.

If someone HAD to do any opioid (for physical or emotional pain).... I would beg them to stay away from opiates and opioids and be extremely happy with Kratom  :kratomtee:
But... they just made it 10 times harder for Americans (UK already got fucked in regards to Kratom) to get ahold of Kratom. Fuck you corrupt DEA and government  :fuckthisshit:


--------------------
Pain is temporary. It may last for a minute or an hour or a day or even a year but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it will last forever.


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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: daz01]
    #23642748 - 09/13/16 07:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

daz01 said:
Kratom is an opioid but in no way shape or form similar to your typical opiates and pharma opioids. Kratom also contains many, many other beneficial non-opioid alkaloids.
I used Kratom for 13~ days on quitting opiates (a serious poppy pod addiction) then stopped. It saved from me the depths of opiate hell and gave me a proper chance of getting clean.
It is simply propaganda and fear mongering when Kratom is called "The New Heroin".

Kratom is addictive but.... about 20 times less addictive than your typical opioids, with less risks and side effects.
You get addicted to heroin = your life is fucked, possibly for eternity.
Addiction to Kratom = an addiction but certainly functional and relatively healthy addiction to a plant.

If someone HAD to do any opioid (for physical or emotional pain).... I would beg them to stay away from opiates and opioids and be extremely happy with Kratom  :kratomtee:
But... they just made it 10 times harder for Americans (UK already got fucked in regards to Kratom) to get ahold of Kratom. Fuck you corrupt DEA and government  :fuckthisshit:




Kratom is not an opoid. Something that is a pain reliever does not automatically become an opoid. An opiate refers to a class of drug that acts upon your body a certain way to achieve a certain result.

Kratom is an opoid antagonist. It achieves a similar result but in a complete different neurological pathway. That is why it is good for withdraw symptoms.


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: daz01]
    #23642750 - 09/13/16 07:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Do u think maybe Kratom is being criminalize because another drug was decriminalized, kinda like "ok we're gonna give u this but we're also going to take that from u" type of deal?.. Or should I save it for forum 99..


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: theonlysun81]
    #23642772 - 09/13/16 07:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

theonlysun81 said:


Kratom is not an opoid. Something that is a pain reliever does not automatically become an opoid. An opiate refers to a class of drug that acts upon your body a certain way to achieve a certain result.
.




Mitragynine binds to mu opioid receptors, produces opioid-like effects and its effects are blocked by naloxone. How does this not fit the definition of an opioid?


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: zZZz] * 1
    #23642785 - 09/13/16 07:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

No it is criminalized because it is being used to treat opiate addiction and that is like srs business these days.  There is serious stigma around opiate addiction where the stigma from weed has largely diminished. 

Also there is an ingrained fear of "that new drug" really stemming way back to LSD, ecstasy, "designer drugs" to fentanyl and "bath salts".  If people aren't familiar with it, it feels more dangerous.  The fact that kratom doesn't seem to be dangerous, and it works, makes it that more dangerous as far as the average consumer of information goes.  Weed was like this to old people 50 years ago, but these days it's pretty inane.


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OfflineMr. Magic
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: badchad]
    #23642865 - 09/13/16 08:12 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

theonlysun81 said:


Kratom is not an opoid. Something that is a pain reliever does not automatically become an opoid. An opiate refers to a class of drug that acts upon your body a certain way to achieve a certain result.
.




Mitragynine binds to mu opioid receptors, produces opioid-like effects and its effects are blocked by naloxone. How does this not fit the definition of an opioid?




It doesnt just produce opiate like effects. Like he said its an antagonist not an agonist and has many different effects besides the opiate like feeling.

I wouldnt classify them together.

Well it has a little of everything so idk lol


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Offlinedaz01
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: Mr. Magic]
    #23642928 - 09/13/16 08:36 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Opioid, a more modern term, is used to designate all substances, both natural and synthetic, that bind to opioid receptors (including antagonists)




Quote:

7-Hydroxymitragynine is a partial agonist at the μ-opioid receptor.
Mitragynine itself acts primarily via μ-opioid receptors
Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl itself acts primarily via mu and delta opioid receptors.




--------------------
Pain is temporary. It may last for a minute or an hour or a day or even a year but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it will last forever.


Edited by daz01 (09/13/16 08:38 PM)


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Invisiblebadchad
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: daz01]
    #23642942 - 09/13/16 08:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

daz01 said:
Quote:

Opioid, a more modern term, is used to designate all substances, both natural and synthetic, that bind to opioid receptors (including antagonists)








:themoreyouknow:


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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Offlinemorrowasted
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: badchad]
    #23642957 - 09/13/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

theonlysun81 said:


Kratom is not an opoid. Something that is a pain reliever does not automatically become an opoid. An opiate refers to a class of drug that acts upon your body a certain way to achieve a certain result.
.




Mitragynine binds to mu opioid receptors, produces opioid-like effects and its effects are blocked by naloxone. How does this not fit the definition of an opioid?



not all of the effects. there are a lot of alkaloids in kratom. it's speculated that it also acts as a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and has other unknown mechanisms of action. there really is a lot of variability between strains. some clearly contain mostly alkaloids that bind to opioid receptors but some are extremely stimulating and clearly have fewer of those alkaloids and more other alkaloids



but yeah all kratom technically fits the definition of an opioid.


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Offlinedaz01
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: morrowasted]
    #23643000 - 09/13/16 09:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

But, that's what makes Kratom so great. It is a safe and effective opioid, along with tons of other alkaloids.

Quote:

Concentration percentages given come from different studies of alkaloid concentrations in Mitragyna speciosa– Kratom leaf. Some of the alkaloids given in this list still need to be studied more specifically in order to determine their potential activity.

Ajmalicine (Raubasine): Cerebrocirculant, antiaggregant, anti-adrenergic (at alpha-1), sedative, anticonvulsant, smooth muscle relaxer. Also found in Rauwolfia serpentina.

Akuammigine

Ciliaphylline: antitussive, analgesic. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Corynantheidine: μ -opioid antagonist, also found in Yohimbe. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Corynoxeine: Calcium channel blocker. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Corynoxine A and B: Dopamine mediating anti-locomotives. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Epicatechin: Antioxidant, antiaggregant, antibacterial, antidiabetic,
antihepatitic, anti-inflammatory, anti-leukemic, antimutagenic, antiperoxidant,
antiviral, potential cancer preventative, alpha-amylase inhibitor. Also found in dark chocolate.

9-Hydroxycorynantheidine: Partial opioid agonist

7-hydroxymitragynine: Analgesic, antitussive, antidiarrheal; primary
psychoactive in Kratom, Roughly 2% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Isomitraphylline: Immunostimulant, anti-leukemic. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Isomitrafoline: < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Isopteropodine: Immunostimulant

Isorhynchophylline: Immunostimulant. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Isospeciofoline: < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitraciliatine: < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitragynine: Indole alkaloid. Analgesic, antitussive, antidiarrheal, adrenergic, antimalarial,
possible psychedelic (5-HT2A) antagonist. Roughly 66% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitragynine oxindole B. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitrafoline: < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Mitraphylline: Oxindole alkaloid. Vasodilator, antihypertensive, muscle relaxer, diuretic, antiamnesic, anti-leukemic, possible immunostimulant. <1% of total alkaloid contents in Kratom leaf.

Mitraversine

Paynantheine: Indole alkaloid. Smooth muscle relaxer. 8.6% to 9% of total alkaloid contents in Kratom leaf.

Rhynchophylline: Vasodilator, antihypertensive, calcium channel blocker,
antiaggregant, anti-inflammatory, antipyretic, anti-arrhythmic, antithelmintic. < 1% of total alkaloid content found in Kratom leaf.

Speciociliatine: Weak opioid agonist. 0.8% to 1% of total alkaloid content of Kratom leaf, unique to Kratom.

Speciofoline

Speciogynine: Smooth muscle relaxer. 6.6% to 7% of total alkaloid contents of Kratom leaf.

Speciophylline: Indole alkaloid. Anti-leukemic. <1% of total alkaloid contents of Kratom leaf.

Stipulatine

Tetrahydroalstonine: Hypoglycemic, anti-adrenergic (at alpha-2)




--------------------
Pain is temporary. It may last for a minute or an hour or a day or even a year but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it will last forever.


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Invisibletdubz
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: daz01]
    #23643044 - 09/13/16 09:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

For me I could never get a proper nod off kratom no matter how much I ate, also for me there is a ceiling, once I reach that I cannot get any higher. Pain killing wise it's just as good an almost any opiate that I have tried and would maybe be comparable to hydrocodone rather than oxycodone which in my opinion is way stronger. I have tried in this short yr like 5 different vendors an multiple types, so I got a good taste of kratom while it lasted. I agree with pretty much most of the things OP said, but I for some reason could never nod of it no matter how many grams atleast not like a true opiate nod. I was using kratom for pain killing effects anyway so that didn't really bother me as I was not trying to get high off it which I feel regular opiates do a better job of for me.


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Invisiblebirdeatingspider
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: moonrockmushy]
    #23643150 - 09/13/16 09:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've experienced both and the biggest difference to me is I feel kratom is self regulating, if I take too much I puke or it works against me. 
After ingesting my usual dose I feel content verses opiates I would binge and enough was never enough.

Both help my chronic pain.

With opiates I would nod and pass out, yet feel like I haven't slept when I got up in the morning.. whereas after taking kratom I sleep fine and wake up refreshed.

Opiates made me fiend.. whilst in a binge I'd wake up and it was the first thing I would think of.  With kratom I start my day and am partially through before I take any.

Kratom allows me to function optimally.  I eat well, kick ass at work, tend to my relationships, walk the dog, excersize, and talk to my family.

When I used to do opiates my quality of life sucked.. I failed miserably at home and work, and dropped off the face of the earth.  Looked and felt like crap.

Running out was the end of my world.  I'd spend money I didn't have to get one more bun. 
There have been times I've arrive at work and realize i'd left my kratom at home.  Never an issue, only slight disappointment.


--------------------

From all I may be, or have been before,
To mingle with the Universe, and feel
What I can ne’er express, yet cannot all conceal.


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OfflineTNK
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: birdeatingspider]
    #23643180 - 09/13/16 09:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Last time I checked, injecting heroin, and eating kratom were nothing alike.

:shrug: just my two cents, maybe if I get my hands on the pharmaceutical version of Kratom I can further my experimental testing.

:lookslucrative:


--------------------
Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)


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OfflineMr. Magic
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: daz01]
    #23643184 - 09/13/16 09:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah and thats the thing when i think of a classic opioid i think of a drug that strongly targets and effects opioid receptors.

Kratom does this but some are partial agonist, full agonist, antagonists along side serotonin and NMDA receptors(at high doses). It also depends on dosage where the binding at opioid receptors isnt as strong at low doses.

Its much more diverse.


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OfflineCanadian Jesus
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: plasma]
    #23643200 - 09/13/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

plasma said:
Tbh they almost feel identical (kratom and oxy)

It's been several years since I've done oxy though, but as far as I can remember they are the same




You're onto something there. I only tried kratom recently, and haven't touched an oxy in years, but from my experience, 3g of Red Borneo Kratom feels like eating a couple percs with no tolerance. They're pretty damn close.


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Offlinetheonlysun81
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: morrowasted]
    #23643973 - 09/14/16 07:23 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

theonlysun81 said:


Kratom is not an opoid. Something that is a pain reliever does not automatically become an opoid. An opiate refers to a class of drug that acts upon your body a certain way to achieve a certain result.
.




Mitragynine binds to mu opioid receptors, produces opioid-like effects and its effects are blocked by naloxone. How does this not fit the definition of an opioid?



not all of the effects. there are a lot of alkaloids in kratom. it's speculated that it also acts as a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor and has other unknown mechanisms of action. there really is a lot of variability between strains. some clearly contain mostly alkaloids that bind to opioid receptors but some are extremely stimulating and clearly have fewer of those alkaloids and more other alkaloids



but yeah all kratom technically fits the definition of an opioid.




https://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom.shtml

erowid does not have it classfied as an opiate


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Offlinedaz01
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: badchad]
    #23643993 - 09/14/16 07:39 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

daz01 said:
Opioid, a more modern term, is used to designate all substances, both natural and synthetic, that bind to opioid receptors (including antagonists)





Quote:

Opiate, a drug (such as morphine or codeine) that is made from opium and that is used to reduce pain or cause sleep




--------------------
Pain is temporary. It may last for a minute or an hour or a day or even a year but eventually it will subside and something else will take its place. If I quit, however, it will last forever.


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OfflineAllGreyThumbs
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: daz01]
    #23644334 - 09/14/16 10:55 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

At first I would have said that kratom was very much like a mild opiod.  Having played with it enough, it is starting to distinguish itself and become it's own thing.

While kind of an opiod like there are so many little differences that it no longer really make sense to think of it as an opiod variant.  In my mind it sits in this weird little off shoot class of its own.


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OfflineTNK
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Re: Differences between opiates and kratom [Re: AllGreyThumbs]
    #23645240 - 09/14/16 04:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It is odd people are comparing it to Percs or Oxies.

In my experience, even at high doses of 15 grams It was still weak in comparison.


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Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)


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