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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
In what scenario...
    #23641361 - 09/13/16 12:03 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Is death anxiety not the prime motivator?

It seems to me that death anxiety is behind all our actions, and the great answer to life is death anxiety. Meaning what we keep coming back for, is because of death anxiety.


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As far as I assume to know...


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OfflineNooner
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23641371 - 09/13/16 12:07 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

When you're not afraid to die.


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Deus Videt


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: Nooner]
    #23641453 - 09/13/16 12:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Well, I think few ever conquer death anxiety fully. Shields seems to distract people from fearing death, but when you remove those there is only the naked animal struggling for survival.

Maybe some of the terminally ill have conquered death anxiety.


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As far as I assume to know...


Edited by liquidlounge (09/13/16 12:42 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: liquidlounge] * 1
    #23641609 - 09/13/16 01:24 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've heard about some clinic in Switzerland that has been administering psilocybin and LSD to terminally ill patients to ease their death anxiety, and that it works.  Some of the patients claim they are completely free of their fear.  I heard about this probably three or four years ago, I don't have a link.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: In what scenario... [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23641754 - 09/13/16 02:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, I would imagine loss of all hope would gain some sort of serenity.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23641790 - 09/13/16 02:32 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Good point.  Loss of all hope, coupled with free high quality shrooms, in a beautiful mountainside setting probably does bring serenity to most of those patients.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23643114 - 09/13/16 09:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've seen this argument before, but I can't say I've ever understood. I'd even go so far as I dont' recognize what
"death anxiety" is. I see other people complain about their fading youth, but I don't worry about the fact that some
day my life will end. I'm not trolling, or trying to be edgy, I just am curious who the hell some thinkers (Hitchens for example)
think they are to say "fear of death" is the main motivator of everyone's life? Youre born, you live, you die. Tide goes in, tide goes out :grin:


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: Crumist]
    #23643363 - 09/13/16 11:17 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

You seem to be projecting the issue you're currently dealing with onto everyone.

Death anxiety is your current issue. It was the issue at the time of the essays' writing for the writer.

Doesn't mean anyone else necessarily has this problem.

---

In my experience, we are the beginning and the end of existence, and we encompass the death of the physical.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23644236 - 09/14/16 09:57 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Some people like to make lists of what motivates people (and arrange ideas like love, sex, power, fear of death … etc.) (and maybe even number the items in order of ‘importance’).

Others might idly wonder: What motivates them to make lists …


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Invisibleliquidlounge

Registered: 12/22/10
Posts: 9,256
Re: In what scenario... [Re: Crumist]
    #23647713 - 09/15/16 02:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
I've seen this argument before, but I can't say I've ever understood. I'd even go so far as I dont' recognize what
"death anxiety" is. I see other people complain about their fading youth, but I don't worry about the fact that some
day my life will end. I'm not trolling, or trying to be edgy, I just am curious who the hell some thinkers (Hitchens for example)
think they are to say "fear of death" is the main motivator of everyone's life? Youre born, you live, you die. Tide goes in, tide goes out :grin:



My guess is that you don't see it consciously.


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As far as I assume to know...


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Invisibleliquidlounge

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Re: In what scenario... [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23647725 - 09/15/16 02:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

beforethedawn said:
You seem to be projecting the issue you're currently dealing with onto everyone.

Death anxiety is your current issue. It was the issue at the time of the essays' writing for the writer.

Doesn't mean anyone else necessarily has this problem.

---

In my experience, we are the beginning and the end of existence, and we encompass the death of the physical.



Death anxiety seems to be the basis of cultures all over the world. :shrug:


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As far as I assume to know...


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23647802 - 09/15/16 03:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Quote:

Crumist said:
I've seen this argument before, but I can't say I've ever understood. I'd even go so far as I dont' recognize what
"death anxiety" is. I see other people complain about their fading youth, but I don't worry about the fact that some
day my life will end. I'm not trolling, or trying to be edgy, I just am curious who the hell some thinkers (Hitchens for example)
think they are to say "fear of death" is the main motivator of everyone's life? Youre born, you live, you die. Tide goes in, tide goes out :grin:



My guess is that you don't see it consciously.




I think liguidlounge is at least mostly right.  Look at the chain of causation.  What drives civilization?  What drives an individual's need to be a part of the workforce?  The answer to that is: survival.  Everyone does what they do, at least as far as putting food on the table, because of an innate drive to survive.  And what is survival really?  The result of the desire not to die.  So at least there is a solid causation for entertaining the abstraction we call "death anxiety."  Some people are not as afraid of death as others.  But probably, most would rather be alive than dead, and just because one doesn't actively get bothered by the notion of dying, chances are it will be pretty hard to take when it happens, if it doesn't happen suddenly.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23648319 - 09/15/16 06:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:


...  The answer to that is: survival.  Everyone does what they do, at least as far as putting food on the table, because of an innate drive to survive.  And what is survival really?  The result of the desire not to die.  ... Some people are not as afraid of death as others.  But probably, most would rather be alive than dead, and just because one doesn't actively get bothered by the notion of dying, chances are it will be pretty hard to take when it happens, if it doesn't happen suddenly.




so it would be interesting to know if those who devote their lives to the service of others suffer less when dying. Wonder if anyone ever did such a study. After all they have mitigated the grip of ego previously.


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Offlinebeforethedawn
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23648580 - 09/15/16 07:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Quote:

beforethedawn said:
You seem to be projecting the issue you're currently dealing with onto everyone.

Death anxiety is your current issue. It was the issue at the time of the essays' writing for the writer.

Doesn't mean anyone else necessarily has this problem.

---

In my experience, we are the beginning and the end of existence, and we encompass the death of the physical.



Death anxiety seems to be the basis of cultures all over the world. :shrug:




Hm maybe it can be seen that way, but how many people go around fearing death instead of just living?

It seems to be a lot of people don't assume too much, just get on with things, and are reasonably alive.

:sun:


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


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OfflineMurzelpfrumpft
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23648657 - 09/15/16 07:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

People more often confronted with death like health professionals are more interested in culture. They go to the theater more often and what not.

Would be interesting if this applies to people who had near-death-experiences as well.
I guess it depends on the outcome.
After such an experience, some people dear death more and some less.

However, had some insanely intense of those experiences and it drastically changed my "death anxiety" but I'm not interested in culture any more than before.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: Murzelpfrumpft] * 1
    #23653431 - 09/17/16 03:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/opinion/why-do-doctors-commit-suicide.html?_r=0

The statistics on physician suicide are frightening: Physicians are more than twice as likely to kill themselves as nonphysicians (and female physicians three times more likely than their male counterparts). Some 400 doctors commit suicide every year.
- - - - - - -
http://www.publichealth.va.gov/epidemiology/studies/suicide-risk-death-risk-recent-veterans.asp

Suicide Risk and Risk of Death Among Recent Veterans
Among deployed and non-deployed active duty Veterans who served during the Iraq or Afghanistan wars between 2001 and 2007, the rate of suicide was greatest the first three years after leaving service, according to a recent study.
Compared to the U.S. population, both deployed and non-deployed Veterans had a higher risk of suicide, but a lower risk of death from other causes combined. Deployed Veterans also had a lower risk of suicide compared to non-deployed Veterans.
These findings are from a study that looked at the vital status of 1.3 million Veterans from their time of discharge through the end of 2009.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
lots more facts here

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/01/06/top-11-professions-with-highest-suicide-rates/


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OfflineWithinity
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: liquidlounge] * 1
    #23656278 - 09/18/16 04:51 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I'm going to make this post a bit more personal. It's mainly for OP but a few others might Grok where I'm going with this.

Constantly focusing on Death anxiety is also a form of death anxiety so why even go down this rabbit hole? It's the prime motivator yes , I agree. Behind all our actions and sexual pursuits and once you become too close or analytical of this fact it can really affect your life imo. It's not always smart to get caught knee deep in these kinds of thought trains. Humans are animals, animals have ego's which help them survive; becoming conscious of every death anxiety shield you create and then tearing it down has a high potential of making you an un-functionable animal.

If someone wants to believe the ultimate act of selflessness is to not have children let them not have children and shut the fuck up about it instead of influencing a bunch of lost and troubled kids which is also a way of building up a shield. Socially interacting on the Internet is still coming back to the animal nature of being social pack creatures, people even have reputations and can build up a following even if they act humble and dismissive about it. It's way easy to deceive yourself above all and the scary thing is you wouldn't even know it.

Yes your constantly rotting but if you embrace biology wholeheartedly then that also includes death. I think those people who didn't continue on their genetics were not in fact selfless but instead a bunch of sore losers and I would be interested what they thought on the matter on their deathbed.

Be your own person bro, whoever wants to read Ernst Becker can read the book and draw their own conclusions. Man always has this habit and tendency to 'rally the troops' as it were. If you do really understand this then why keep going back to the obvious, same shit as people trying to convince you of religion really. It's just less obvious because the shield is about the shield kind of thing , Its closer to home but your still not home as you are not yet dead.

One love brother :heart:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: Withinity]
    #23656456 - 09/18/16 05:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Withinity said:
I'm going to make this post a bit more personal. It's mainly for OP but a few others might Grok where I'm going with this.

Constantly focusing on Death anxiety is also a form of death anxiety so why even go down this rabbit hole? It's the prime motivator yes , I agree. Behind all our actions and sexual pursuits and once you become too close or analytical of this fact it can really affect your life imo. It's not always smart to get caught knee deep in these kinds of thought trains. Humans are animals, animals have ego's which help them survive; becoming conscious of every death anxiety shield you create and then tearing it down has a high potential of making you an un-functionable animal.

If someone wants to believe the ultimate act of selflessness is to not have children let them not have children and shut the fuck up about it instead of influencing a bunch of lost and troubled kids which is also a way of building up a shield. Socially interacting on the Internet is still coming back to the animal nature of being social pack creatures, people even have reputations and can build up a following even if they act humble and dismissive about it. It's way easy to deceive yourself above all and the scary thing is you wouldn't even know it.

Yes your constantly rotting but if you embrace biology wholeheartedly then that also includes death. I think those people who didn't continue on their genetics were not in fact selfless but instead a bunch of sore losers and I would be interested what they thought on the matter on their deathbed.

Be your own person bro, whoever wants to read Ernst Becker can read the book and draw their own conclusions. Man always has this habit and tendency to 'rally the troops' as it were. If you do really understand this then why keep going back to the obvious, same shit as people trying to convince you of religion really. It's just less obvious because the shield is about the shield kind of thing , Its closer to home but your still not home as you are not yet dead.

One love brother :heart:




You make some good points :thumbup:

I think what tends to draw myself and maybe others like me back in, is that there are some benefits from exploring one's motives as well. One can replace shields by acknowledging those currently in place. Yes, it is difficult for any shield to engage fully now. But for some of us the shields were broken/dysfunctional to begin with and so it's actually a reprieve to understand their intended function. The replacements may never be whole but I don't believe anyone's shields are ever free from gaps. At least now there is some freedom to choose whereas before it was directed by a broken and largely heartless culture.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23656514 - 09/18/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Is death anxiety not the prime motivator?

It seems to me that death anxiety is behind all our actions, and the great answer to life is death anxiety. Meaning what we keep coming back for, is because of death anxiety.




I think there may be states of meditation that achieve this and studies show the brain alterations to boot. I also think that one can momentarily glance it throughout their life in special circumstances. At least those have been my experiences.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineWithinity
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: Kickle]
    #23656647 - 09/18/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I respect what you say and I agree that no shields are ever bulletproof because you never know what the next day can bring to your surprise, I know it well. Introspection is never a bad thing in my eyes but we also must eat and keep up the daily rituals. If your leg has Gangrene you chop it off or the infection spreads in the same way I think fanaticism can wholeheartedly consume an individual leaving them dysfunctional members of society.

The difference between 'coming back in' compared to 'constantly being there'. Anyway your a really smart guy, you know what I mean , thanks for chiming in with your experiences.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: Withinity]
    #23660444 - 09/20/16 12:39 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I think social anxiety...though most people wont call themselves shy is the main factor for suffering..Because we care what other people think, and have a history of doing so..its hard to enter the world..with your true will intact...because the doubt arises that what you are doing might be wrong..or be judged inappropriate.

So having said that..it can be taken as a form of death anxiety metaphorically..and concretely...we are afraid due to other peoples judgment of "Dying" but not true physical death as in im going to be buried in a  cemetery..but of the biochemical processes that go through your body as soon as someone makes fun of you..or judges against you..

I agree that this could be one of the top goals in your life..is to get over this death anxiety...

And then after that you can work on immortality..

The only sad part is most immortals leave the Earth and only come back wearing different forms..they get afraid to reveal who they are..


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OfflineTameMe
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #23662720 - 09/20/16 06:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

why do we have to think of this is terms of a double negative...not dying...


the natural state is death...

is the desire to keep living different than not dying?

i hope to live...not survive.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: TameMe]
    #23666027 - 09/21/16 07:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TameMe said:
why do we have to think of this is terms of a double negative...not dying...


the natural state is death...

is the desire to keep living different than not dying?

i hope to live...not survive.




Double negative?
Are you saying death is negative? It doesn't follow grammatically that way...

Anywho. I think we are alive by default and so one cannot try to be alive
but we are not dead by default and so one can try not to die


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: liquidlounge]
    #23666084 - 09/21/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

liquidlounge said:
Is death anxiety not the prime motivator?

It seems to me that death anxiety is behind all our actions, and the great answer to life is death anxiety. Meaning what we keep coming back for, is because of death anxiety.




Essentially, you're basing "all" human motives on fear. Anxiety is "free-floating," meaning that anxiety does not have a specific object as does fear does. "Death Anxiety" is therefore a misnomer, and really ought to be called 'Fear of death' because that's what it is. Anxiety is directed towards the uncertainties of the future and specifically, the uncertainty about the time and means of one's death. The Bible says "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love" - 1 John 4:18 and this is a psychologically profound statement. Love means transcending oneself, participating in something that is bigger than one's individual biological existence that everyone knows is time-limited.

Fearing future suffering through illness and loss, loss of one's strength, faculties, finances, and loved one's is part of the human condition, but dwelling in the imaginary future in a state of anxiety as much as dwelling in the past and experiencing depression over it are both equally pathological. The biblical statement really suggests helping others, including but not limited to one's own family. This is phenomenologically similar to Karma Yoga, the Yoga of Action. One doesn't have to become a missionary to some third world country to practice intentional (as well as random) acts of kindness. Such behaviors manifest love (agapé) in the biblical sense which is equivalent to Buddhist metta (loving-kindness) or compassion. It's all about of reorienting oneself from a strictly physical to a spiritual identity, from body to mind, soul (mind-body) to spirit, form to emptiness. One is brought to a meaningful helping present which quiets the mental production of anticipatory anxiety.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23666273 - 09/21/16 08:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

"Anxiety is not the same as fear, which is a response to a real or perceived immediate threat,[3] whereas anxiety is the expectation of future threat."

American Psychiatric Association (2013). Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (Fifth ed.). Arlington, VA: American Psychiatric Publishing. p. 189. ISBN 978-0-89042-555-8.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23666382 - 09/21/16 09:03 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I've heard about some clinic in Switzerland that has been administering psilocybin and LSD to terminally ill patients to ease their death anxiety, and that it works.  Some of the patients claim they are completely free of their fear.  I heard about this probably three or four years ago, I don't have a link.




I keep hearing good things about Switzerland.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: Hobozen]
    #23666425 - 09/21/16 09:17 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

If you're into chocolate, clocks, or numbered bank accounts, it's the place to be. :thumbup:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleHobozen
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Re: In what scenario... [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23666451 - 09/21/16 09:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Mt first job was at a Swiss pastry.shop, the owner was straight out if Switzerland. Some of the best desserts I've ever tasted. Even his bread was uniquely delicious. He ended up moving nad selling the place and it went downhill after that. I tried one of their torts recently and it's loaded with sugar. :nonono:


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