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Invisibleelax420
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23638935 - 09/12/16 04:03 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

elax420 said:
If it's not a public good why is the govt subsidizing it in the first place?



The government pays for public services.  Those services cost more because of uninsured people.  If your argument is that we should not require emergency rooms to treat people who can't pay, or paramedics to help broke people, I'd agree with that.  As long as we are forcing them to treat people, however, that's going to cost the government money.





I can respect the honesty of that statement, but where's the money in that?

You need people dependent on you in order to continue financing you. If they die you don't get any money. Our entire system is based on credit.

Would you rather pay 2000$ for an item or "ten simple payments of 200$ (smaller text) at 17.9% interest)"
You would probably go with a because you are educated but the poor who are living check to check have to chose B out of either ignorance or necessity.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: elax420]
    #23638961 - 09/12/16 04:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

First, let's keep it in context.  Almost half of the country doesn't pay any federal income tax.  $80/month for a dude making $50k a year still puts him way below the point of paying his share of the cost. 

Second, I'm not supporting Obamacare.  I'm just saying that the argument that it's unconstitutional is bullshit.  The government has long had the power to use the tax code to encourage or discourage behavior that it can't mandate directly.

If it's failing so badly, I'm sure that it will be repealed in due time.  The people have the ultimate power here.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23638992 - 09/12/16 04:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
First, let's keep it in context.  Almost half of the country doesn't pay any federal income tax.  $80/month for a dude making $50k a year still puts him way below the point of paying his share of the cost. 

Second, I'm not supporting Obamacare.  I'm just saying that the argument that it's unconstitutional is bullshit. 

If it's failing so badly, I'm sure that it will be repealed in due time.  The public has the ultimate power here.





But does it? (80x12 is 960). I didn't even go to a doctor last year. Obviously the math is gonna be way more complex than that but financial manipulation is another key part of our system. Just look at what caused the financial crisis, all that rampant speculation and disregard for others still goes



I was just trying to engage u in philosophical debate cuz I'm bored but I'll get back on topic.

I agree with you about everything aside from the system correcting itself. I'm pretty young but shit has never gotten better only worse. i think a lot of Americans would agree with that and that's why we have trump/Bernie


If Hillary gets elected (point of this thread) I think we are gonna be looking at a serious insurrection. I think those in power know this and it's why they have been arming themselves to the teeth.

I think ultimately everyone from all political viewpoints just wants fair wages for their labor. And wages have been stagnant since 1972 (which is when the Bretton woods plan broke down and the US became a massive debtor rather than the biggest creditor nation)


http://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #23638993 - 09/12/16 04:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
First, let's keep it in context.  Almost half of the country doesn't pay any federal income tax.  $80/month for a dude making $50k a year still puts him way below the point of paying his share of the cost. 

Second, I'm not supporting Obamacare.  I'm just saying that the argument that it's unconstitutional is bullshit.  The government has long had the power to use the tax code to encourage or discourage behavior that it can't mandate directly.

If it's failing so badly, I'm sure that it will be repealed in due time.  The people have the ultimate power here.




since we are keeping it in context, i'll mention briefly that while true that the top 1% of earners are paying upwards of 50% of the total tax burden, they are also the beneficiaries of upwards of 80% of the wealth generated.  So, in a sense, the very wealthiest are getting a 30%ish tax discount on all of the lovely amenities that America has to provide


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23638995 - 09/12/16 04:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Your logic is flawed as fuck.  Sure, welfare and defense cost a lot.  I'd cut both of them by over 90% if it were up to me.  That doesn't mean that uninsured people don't cost the taxpayers a lot.  Go to any county hospital emergency room and then tell me that the taxpayers aren't footing the bill for billions of dollars of healthcare that will never be paid by the patients.



It is a drop in the bucket, relatively speaking. I never said they didn't cost anything, I said they didn't cost "a lot", which as I'm sure you know, is quite a vague assertion. Using the measure of defense spending and the cost of the welfare state, I was able to pass judgement on the cost of the uninsured to the taxpayer and it is a drop in the bucket. At least the taxpayer pays directly for those uninsured hospital bills. Now the taxpayer pays for the people that don't even go to the hospital! We don't want to pay for the occasional uninsured patient, so we will pay for every single mother fucker in the country.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] * 1
    #23639032 - 09/12/16 04:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It sounds like all of us agree obamacare is a mess. We should move on.


The thing that worries me most about an impending Clinton presidency (who knows how this medical scare will affect her) is her tendency to hawkish-ness


She voted for Iraq, championed intervention in Syria and Libya, and is already beating the drum about Putin and Russia.


Could Ukraine be the new Charlie wilsons war? (Proxy war)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] * 1
    #23639041 - 09/12/16 04:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

A drop in the bucket?  in 2011, it was $41 billion of unpaid medical bills.  If every single one of the uninsured in America paid the max under Obamacare, that would total about $26 billion in what you call "fines."


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23639044 - 09/12/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If it's failing so badly, I'm sure that it will be repealed in due time.  The people have the ultimate power here.



The people have the ultimate power? What a fucking joke. This isn't a democracy, its a republic. The congress has an approval rating perpetually under 15% while reelection rates are frequently over 90%. These laws are shoved down our throats. These presidents are handpicked based on their ability to lie with a straight face. People don't have a choice, they are given the illusion of one. Dems wanted Bernie, clearly. Hillary Clinton serves as the prime example of how the establishment has the ultimate power here and the people just get to play pretend.


--------------------
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23639051 - 09/12/16 04:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like conspiracy talk to me.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23639063 - 09/12/16 04:38 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sounds like conspiracy talk to me.





Sounds like a deflection, meant to silence debate.

This is exactly why I called u a neo-lib although it has become clear u are a lolbertarian

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: elax420]
    #23639070 - 09/12/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
It sounds like all of us agree obamacare is a mess. We should move on.


The thing that worries me most about an impending Clinton presidency (who knows how this medical scare will affect her) is her tendency to hawkish-ness


She voted for Iraq, championed intervention in Syria and Libya, and is already beating the drum about Putin and Russia.


Could Ukraine be the new Charlie wilsons war? (Proxy war)





yes.  probably no matter who wins.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23572496


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: elax420]
    #23639075 - 09/12/16 04:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The notion that some elite group decide elections is just silly.  Elections are decided by a group of largely uneducated people who react emotionally and are easily manipulated...in other words, the citizens.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23639102 - 09/12/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The notion that some elite group decide elections is just silly.  Elections are decided by a group of largely uneducated people who react emotionally and are easily manipulated...in other words, the citizens.





Lol okay Debbie Waserman Schultz. You sound like the perfect Floridian plutocrat

https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/

While your there take a peak at Clinton's emails. Soros talks to Clinton a lot for not playing a role in politics :lol:

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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23639120 - 09/12/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
A drop in the bucket?  in 2011, it was $41 billion of unpaid medical bills.  If every single one of the uninsured in America paid the max under Obamacare, that would total about $26 billion in what you call "fines."



So according to you, if these people were insured, it would cost the tax payer less? You are contending that the insurance companies would be the ones paying if they were insured, and none of those costs would be passed on to the tax payer? These people if they were insured, would incur fewer medical bills?

People who can't afford medical bills, wont be all of a sudden able to afford them after you sign them up for subsidized insurance. Sure someone else will pay for their medical bills, but such was the case before hand. I don't understand how people could think that Obamacare was going to make health insurance more "affordable". Anyone who was able to afford it before, is finding it harder and harder to afford it now. Anyone who couldn't afford it before, still can't afford it now. The taxpayer pays in both situations. They just pay a lot more under the ACA.

And the law is unconstitutional in that it discriminatorily fines me for not having insurance, depriving me of my right to property without due process of law, a violation of the 14th amendment.


--------------------
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"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith

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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23639126 - 09/12/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Sounds like conspiracy talk to me.



Under 15% approval rating... Over 90% reelection rating.

I know you struggle with inductive reasoning but this is pretty fucking clear cut. You tell me why people keep voting in representatives they don't approve of.


--------------------
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"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23639135 - 09/12/16 05:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:

And the law is unconstitutional in that it discriminatorily fines me for not having insurance, depriving me of my right to property without due process of law, a violation of the 14th amendment.



:facepalm: The due process clause of the 14th amendment doesn't apply to the federal government.

If you mean the due process clause of the 5th amendment, your argument still fails.  The government can use the tax code for the purpose of encouraging or discouraging conduct.  Are you saying that having a different tax structure for married individuals is unconstitutional?  Are you saying that taxing tobacco, oil, alcohol, etc. is unconstitutional?  Why would this be any different?

Quote:

amp244 said:
You tell me why people keep voting in representatives they don't approve of.




Because most people are stupid.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23639140 - 09/12/16 05:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
depriving me of my right to property without due process of law, a violation of the 14th amendment.




how so?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_Process_Clause
Quote:

Scope
The Supreme Court has interpreted the due process clauses in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendment identically, as Justice Felix Frankfurter once explained in a concurring opinion: “To suppose that ‘due process of law’ meant one thing in the Fifth Amendment and another in the Fourteenth is too frivolous to require elaborate rejection.”[7] In 1855, the Supreme Court explained that, to ascertain whether a process is due process, the first step is to “examine the constitution itself, to see whether this process be in conflict with any of its provisions…”[8] Also in 1855, the U.S. Supreme Court said, "The words, 'due process of law,' were undoubtedly intended to convey the same meaning as the words, 'by the law of the land,' in Magna Charta."[9] And, the Court said this in the 1884 case of Hurtado v. California:[10]

"Due process of law in the [Fourteenth Amendment] refers to that law of the land in each state which derives its authority from the inherent and reserved powers of the state, exerted within the limits of those fundamental principles of liberty and justice which lie at the base of all our civil and political institutions, and the greatest security for which resides in the right of the people to make their own laws, and alter them at their pleasure." (italics mine)

Due process also applies to the creation of taxing districts, as taxation is a deprivation of property. Due process typically requires public hearings prior to the creation of a taxing district.[11]




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Invisibleelax420
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23639141 - 09/12/16 05:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Bad move AMP.

Don't hit the lawyer with talking about the law. Play to his and all lawyers weakness, discussions of actual substance/understanding.



I'm sure enlil is a great guy personally, but lawyers are all conmen and should be treated thusly.

Why do you think they make such great politicians?

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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: elax420]
    #23639153 - 09/12/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
The notion that some elite group decide elections is just silly.  Elections are decided by a group of largely uneducated people who react emotionally and are easily manipulated...in other words, the citizens.





Lol okay Debbie Waserman Schultz. You sound like the perfect Floridian plutocrat

https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/

While your there take a peak at Clinton's emails. Soros talks to Clinton a lot for not playing a role in politics :lol:



Yea go to the emails and do a search for Rothschild. She fucking sends an email to Lynn Rothschild discussing negotiations in the middle east and saying "Let me know what penance I owe you". Sounds a lot like, "sorry I fucked up boss". Anyone with more than a fleeting interest in history knows of the supreme power and influence wielded by the Rothschilds of yesteryear. How coincidental is it that they just so happen to be in personal contact with high standing U.S. politicians that would like to know what penance they owe? Its all a conspiracy theory until the fucking emails prove the link.

https://wikileaks.org/clinton-emails/emailid/1606


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith

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Invisibleelax420
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23639162 - 09/12/16 05:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I love reading those emails. Just by the tone you can tell who is really in power in America

"My penance" oh god


One of the Rothschilds organized an even for her in the hamptons with a million dollar entrance fee, but ya money doesn't by influence


The hordes of impoverished uneducated voters wield the real power :lol:

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