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OfflineSnakier
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: endogenous]
    #23657729 - 09/19/16 04:41 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I'm new to this so was this a good place to put that thought?


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: endogenous]
    #23658294 - 09/19/16 09:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

endogenous said:
Quote:

Bardy said:
And where do you get off TELLING people that entheogens ARE god?



Where does the "Christian" church get off saying that a wheat wafer is God? The wafer is obviously a distant substitute for what originally was the REAL Flesh of God, Teonanacatl (Nahua name of Psilocybin Mushrooms which translates as "God's Flesh").

Yeah, where did those heathen Nahua savages get off calling Psilocybin Mushrooms "God's Flesh". And where do those savage Native Americans in the Native American Church get off believing that Peyote is a Deity? And where do those backwards Hindus get off believing that Marijuana is the God Soma -- who was the Creator of Indra and all the others. And where does the Daime church get off calling Ayahuasca "the Blood of Christ"?

Yeah -- all those backwards barbarians should get in line and bow down to Bardy -- who accuses me of being a know it all who is full of shit. But that's not a personal attack he assures me.

Heh.





With respect, I think you've got yourself a strong misunderstanding of literal objects and symbology and what these things are known to represent.  I say this not for your view on the mushroom alone, but for your miscomprehension of very basic theological principles pertaining to Christianity which summon correction (and granted, no more 'attack').

It seems you know of the concept of symbology when you reference 'Gods flesh' being a distant substitute (although incorrect in that God has no flesh), but then you seemingly regard the mushroom as the literal, first hand, article. Apparently different rules and regard for each to suit your opinion.

Unlike how you present the mushroom, wafer nor wine is suggested to be literal body or blood, as you so state yourself.  They are synonymous tokens of remembrance of those things pertaining to Jesus' surrender which proved the eternal spirit by resurrection. Body and blood are therefore symbols of wastage in that very process.  The things he gave up for mankind (his life).

'God' by definition, is a deity.  He certainly isn't suggested as flesh, nor blood and there was no 'original flesh of God'. 'God' or 'A God' is a heavenly being.  Any reference to 'Gods Flesh' obviously can only be symbolic.




So too, in some beliefs is the mushroom a symbol of God, because it gives access to the divine - evoking remembrance

The whole point of the eucharist is to remember through the 'body' and 'blood' that they, in light and contrast of the eternal spirit, are irrelevancies, which we consume as he was consumed by sin.

It is to disregard flesh and celebrate eternal life.


Mushroom, nor wine is 'God' any more than your Uncle is your lawn. They are psychological catalysts - Tools for access, connection and tribute.


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/19/16 01:03 PM)


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: Snakier]
    #23658639 - 09/19/16 12:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Snakier said:
I'm new to this so was this a good place to put that thought?





Maybe start a thread called "chasing the golden owl" as I've never heard of that before...


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OfflineBardy
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #23659044 - 09/19/16 03:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Duncan, thank you for being able to word your thoughts a lot better than I can! Haha

And I compared entheogens to heroine and meth because at the end of the day they are all psychoactive drugs. Different combinations and arrangements of atoms that elicit a response from our CNS. So how do you differentiate between them as some being "Gods" and some not? Just because someone wrote it in a book?
If you follow your line of reasoning, then we ourselves should be included as gods, since our brains partly function using molecules extremely close to entheogens.

Also, how can a god possibly exist as a part of the thing they created? If god is part of our existence/universe, then how did god already exist before the beginning? There must have been something that existed before god, for god to possibly exist at all. Which means that a "creator" or "god" must in fact be created. Which is impossible.



Edited by Bardy (09/19/16 03:23 PM)


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: Bardy]
    #23659323 - 09/19/16 04:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

The book and ideology in question just attempts to derail well established beliefs, facts, time honoured, effective practices and associated people by way of surface level, shock factor, void of understanding of any of those things.

Akin to a child revolting in a fit against an orange, before they have even seen an orange.

Fortunately since the birth of so many self publishing platforms, the perceived authority of being an author of a book is swiftly dissipating. :wink:


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23660569 - 09/20/16 02:39 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:

It seems you know of the concept of symbology when you reference 'Gods flesh' being a distant substitute (although incorrect in that God has no flesh), but then you seemingly regard the mushroom as the literal, first hand, article. Apparently different rules and regard for each to suit your opinion.



So, I assume you believe that the Hindus, Native Americans, Nahuas, Daime, etc., are wrong when they state that God has Flesh and that Flesh is an Entheogen?

It shouldn't be difficult to understand that the original Flesh of God in the Christian Church, was Entheogens.

"Christians" are supposed to become one with God and to see the "Light" and receive the "Holy Spirit" when they eat the wafer/wine. Now compare what happens when you eat a cracker or drink a sip of wine to what happens when you ingest Psilocybin or drink Bhang, as all Hindus do once a year during the celebration of "Holi".

"Christians" today have to fantasize what it was like when the original Christians had Communion. Those who ingest Entheogens see what happened in actuality.

"Native Americans contrast the difference between Christianity and the peyote ceremony by saying that the Christians go into their churches and talk about God, while in the Native American Church meeting the people talk to God." http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/312


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: endogenous]
    #23661423 - 09/20/16 11:31 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

endogenous said:
Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:

It seems you know of the concept of symbology when you reference 'Gods flesh' being a distant substitute (although incorrect in that God has no flesh), but then you seemingly regard the mushroom as the literal, first hand, article. Apparently different rules and regard for each to suit your opinion.



So, I assume you believe that the Hindus, Native Americans, Nahuas, Daime, etc., are wrong when they state that God has Flesh and that Flesh is an Entheogen?




Simply; referring to the bold, broad generalisation, 'they' don't claim this, so I only claim that the book in question (and you, regrettably) are wrong.

The mushroom is a penis in many cultures, symbolising sexual health and rebirth,  yet it is not a penis, nor a literal 'God'.

The very definition of the word 'God' means 'in heaven'.  'God' is an entity in and of Heaven.  It is the complete contrary to the physical and thus, nothing physical is 'God'.  If therefore, you understand anything on Earth to be 'God', you'll know by its very name, that it is not so.

The claim that 'God is an entheogen' falls flat at the first hurdle (of language) and so stands as an apparent oxymoron.

By that simple rule, you'll know that the entheogen is not God, but is providing a state of being which potentially allocates passage to God via the mind.

(Needless to say, if you have another word for whatever entity you think is in entheogen, that's your prerogative, but it is not 'God').


Quote:


It shouldn't be difficult to understand that the original Flesh of God in the Christian Church, was Entheogens.




There is no 'Flesh of God' in any Christian church.  This is of your own making.

The Eucharist is reflective of the food passed in the last supper.

There was no 'Flesh of God' at the last supper, or any proposal to 'consume God'.

There was bread handed out by Jesus to his disciples as a form of remembrance of sacrifice and eternal life, named 'The Body of Christ', now practiced as a rite named the 'eucharist'.

Through remembering and recognising Him, in turn, Christhood (pureness of self) is realised / maintained, and the pure channel to God is established and maintained.


Quote:


"Christians" are supposed to become one with God and to see the "Light" and receive the "Holy Spirit" when they eat the wafer/wine. Now compare what happens when you eat a cracker or drink a sip of wine to what happens when you ingest Psilocybin or drink Bhang, as all Hindus do once a year during the celebration of "Holi".





Christians already have the Holy Spirit 'shining' within them (This is the light..and it doesn't literally shine. It's symbolic). The Eucharist is symbolic of their union with the spirit of Jesus Christ who in turn is symbolic of the Christhood.  The mish mash of terms (two of which mean the same) reenforces my earlier notion that you are very hazy on the topic that you are taking liberty to address.

There is no 'seeing light' involved in the Eucharist. It is a rite to pay homage and to acquire fortitude in virtues to remain steadfast on the path. It is worship of what is known and already received.

No-one in Christian Church receives the Holy Spirit by drinking wine or eating wafer, nor is that claimed. They receive the Holy Spirit via the ceremony and process of Baptism.

'Seeing light', as the alagory suggests, refers to personal revelation where a person comes to the first time realization of the goodness (the 'light') which has always been within them, also known as The Christ.


Quote:



"Christians" today have to fantasize what it was like when the original Christians had Communion. Those who ingest Entheogens see what happened in actuality.




In fairness and with respect, I'm not filled with confidence in that you've grasped Christians in any era, so it's perhaps futile addressing them today.  Christians and those who carry the 'light' (Hindus to pick your example), who adhere to effective practice (Kriya Yoga being one), don't need entheogens to establish a connection, nor have many people even heard of such substances.

Millions of Hindus pride themselves in pure form attunement through dedication which involves bodily control, priming and fasting.  Christians, as mentioned, achieve channel through Christhood, which involves pure heart, good deed and some practice the rite of the eucharist, which I must stress again, is not 'The Flesh of God', but 'The Body of Christ', in reflection of the body which was sacrificed by crucifixion to demonstrate resurrection and in turn, eternal life of the spirit.



Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/20/16 04:33 PM)


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Offlinekyu
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: lazlohollyfeld]
    #23661945 - 09/20/16 02:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

lazlohollyfeld said:
I was just sitting here reflecting on past trips and was wondering why quite a few of the trips seem to show me the end is coming...  I never nibble my mushrooms, I usually eat or lemon tek around 5-15 dry grams depending on where I'd like go with the trip.  For quite a few trips in a row, even with my girlfriend present the lights would show up and start filling my head with information seemingly relating to the world coming to an end and to get out of population centers..  weird but it's always so awesome and reassuring even with the constant mental images of humanity being almost wiped out to begin anew..  Anyone else have experiences like these?  Some "visions" have been prophetic so if these more intense "visions" are true as well then.... the end is near lol!




I had similar things right before a strong mystical experience. What seemed 'the end of everything' turned out to be dissolution of all borders on the way to 'cosmic unity' and experience of God.

IMHO, such prophecies mean only that you are getting close to ego death.


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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23661972 - 09/20/16 02:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
By that simple rule, you'll know that the entheogen is not God, but is providing a state of being which potentially allocates passage to God via the mind.





Good point, that's what an entheogen actually is/does, with the discursive points stripped off.  :thumbup:

Quote:

a chemical substance, typically of plant origin, that is ingested to produce a nonordinary state of consciousness for religious or spiritual purposes.




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OfflineAiko Aiko
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #23662041 - 09/20/16 02:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

September 23, 2017...Revelation 12 "Sign in the heavens" is actually taking place. Never before seen by man. Ignore the rapture statement, the rapture stuff is hogwash..Google Revelation 12 sign in the heavens and see what turns up.



Edited by Aiko Aiko (09/20/16 02:58 PM)


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #23662446 - 09/20/16 05:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
By that simple rule, you'll know that the entheogen is not God, but is providing a state of being which potentially allocates passage to God via the mind.





Good point, that's what an entheogen actually is/does, with the discursive points stripped off.  :thumbup:

Quote:

a chemical substance, typically of plant origin, that is ingested to produce a nonordinary state of consciousness for religious or spiritual purposes.








Indeed. If we use certain words, we tend to agree by default with what they mean, lest we don't use them, since the definition isn't up for debate. :wink:


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/20/16 05:29 PM)


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23663854 - 09/21/16 12:32 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

endogenous said:

So, I assume you believe that the Hindus, Native Americans, Nahuas, Daime, etc., are wrong when they state that God has Flesh and that Flesh is an Entheogen?




Simply; referring to the bold, broad generalisation, 'they' don't claim this, so I only claim that the book in question (and you, regrettably) are wrong.




I am wondering how someone who seems to have some ability to understand, has such a seemingly large blind spot.

The Hindus HAVE a God named "Soma". Soma is known, still today, to have been a PLANT. Soma is called the "Creator of the Gods" and "a God for Gods" in the RgVeda which is one of the oldest religious texts in existence (from 1700 b.c.) The RgVeda is like the cornerstone of the Hindu religion.

That, right there, shows you that they believe that God has FLESH.

"Those who have Ears, let them hear." -- St. Matthew, 11, 15

Are you one of those who think that nothing is something? Your belief is, unfortunately, in unreality. To exist in reality, something has to be something.

The identity of God, Soma, the Creator, was lost. Many, (like Terrence McKenna), think that Soma was Psilocybin Mushrooms. Others, (like R. Gordon Wasson), think Amanita Muscaria Mushrooms. Others think Marijuana.

In fact, Hindus believe that Marijuana sprang up when a drop of Amrita (Soma) fell on the ground.


--------------------
The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.


Edited by endogenous (09/21/16 02:12 AM)


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: endogenous]
    #23663982 - 09/21/16 02:04 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.hindunet.org/vedas/rigveda/ :
Quote:

The Rig Veda is the oldest of the Vedas. All the other Vedas are based upon it and consist to a large degree of various hymns from it. It consists of a thousand such hymns of different seers, each hymn averaging around ten verses. The Rig Veda is the oldest book in Sanskrit or any Indo-European language. Its date is debatable. Many great Yogis and scholars who have understood the astronomical references in the hymns, date the Rig Veda as before 4000 B.C., perhaps as early as 12,000. Modern western scholars tend to date it around 1500 B.C., though recent archeological finds in India (like Dwaraka) now appear to require a much earlier date. While the term Vedic is often given to any layer of the Vedic teachings including the Bhagavad Gita, technically it applies primarily to the Rig Veda.




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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: endogenous]
    #23663989 - 09/21/16 02:11 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

endogenous said:
Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Quote:

endogenous said:

So, I assume you believe that the Hindus, Native Americans, Nahuas, Daime, etc., are wrong when they state that God has Flesh and that Flesh is an Entheogen?




Simply; referring to the bold, broad generalisation, 'they' don't claim this, so I only claim that the book in question (and you, regrettably) are wrong.




I am wondering how someone who seems to have some ability to understand, has such a seemingly large blind spot.

The Hindus HAVE a God named "Soma". Soma is known, still today, to have been a PLANT. Soma is called the "Creator of the Gods" and "a God for Gods" in the RgVeda which is one of the oldest religious texts in existence (from 1700 b.c.)

That, right there, shows you that they believe that God has FLESH

Are you one of those who think that nothing is something? Your belief is, unfortunately, in unreality. To exist in reality, something has to be something.

The identity of God, Soma, the Creator, was lost. Many, (like Terrence McKenna), think that Soma was Psilocybin Mushrooms. Others, (like R. Gordon Wasson), think Amanita Muscaria Mushrooms. Others think Marijuana.

In fact, Hindus believe that Marijuana sprang up when a drop of Amrita (Soma) fell on the ground.




Soma is one of three hundred and thirty million Hindu 'Gods' who is the supposed 'God of the Moon' and is not said to literally be an entheogen in any way shape or form.

It is widespread knowledge, even in the Western world that Soma is a panacea substance and this is true for Hindiusim in that the Gods consumed this in a drink'. It is a not a 'God'. Gods in Hindiusim are representatives of earthly forms.  The demiurgic God Soma is a representative of the consumed substance, not the substance of the substance.

Furthermore, the word 'God' (singular) refers to an omnipotent God, not a demiurgic God. When there are many, they are demiurgic and not omnipotent, this nullifying your term of 'God is an entheogen' from the outset, which is singular and non-specific. This alone is alone is good enough to shun your hypothesis.

I'm quite sure the identity of Soma as a plant was lost, certainly as something which proves 'God is an entheogen'. There's certainly a lot of 'thinking' within the pool of people you mention (non of whom would add credibility with that effort) to reflect this lack of evidence.

Nothing presented by you proves that 'God' has flesh, yet I've detailed why your choice of word is a contradiction, in that a 'God' is not of anything earthly.  Whilst I won't post definitions, confident that you already pehaps know, you can refer to the dictionary for clarity if you so wish. This too would stand alone to derail your claim.

With regards to blind spots, alongside the definition of 'God', you seem to have missed a large part of my reply which addresses all of your other errors, so I'll just have to assume you acknowledged the points in your own way. Admitedly, I went through yours with a fine tooth comb, but it was one messy hairdo. It's up to you from now onwards if you want to leave the house with a Bob Ross barnet. :thumbup:


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/21/16 02:53 AM)


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: endogenous]
    #23663990 - 09/21/16 02:12 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

endogenous said:
http://www.hindunet.org/vedas/rigveda/ :
Quote:

The Rig Veda is the oldest of the Vedas. All the other Vedas are based upon it and consist to a large degree of various hymns from it. It consists of a thousand such hymns of different seers, each hymn averaging around ten verses. The Rig Veda is the oldest book in Sanskrit or any Indo-European language. Its date is debatable. Many great Yogis and scholars who have understood the astronomical references in the hymns, date the Rig Veda as before 4000 B.C., perhaps as early as 12,000. Modern western scholars tend to date it around 1500 B.C., though recent archeological finds in India (like Dwaraka) now appear to require a much earlier date. While the term Vedic is often given to any layer of the Vedic teachings including the Bhagavad Gita, technically it applies primarily to the Rig Veda.







Non sequitur.


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/21/16 02:51 AM)


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23664041 - 09/21/16 03:06 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
Soma is one of three hundred and thirty million Hindu 'Gods' who is the supposed 'God of the Moon' and is not said to literally be an entheogen in any way shape or form.



Besides being referred to in abundance in the other Books of the RgVeda, a whole Book - Book 9, is devoted ONLY to Soma.

"1. ENGENDERING the Sun in floods, engendering heaven's lights, green-hued,
Robed in the waters and the milk,
2 According to primeval plan this Soma, with Their stream,
effused
Flows purely on, a God for Gods.
3 For Them victorious, waxen great, the juices with a thousand powers
Are purified for winning spoil.
4 Shedding the ancient fluid They are poured into the cleansing sieve:
They, thundering, hath produced the Gods.
5 Soma, while purifying, sends hither all things to be desired,
They send the Gods who strengthen Law.
6 Soma, effused, pour on us wealth in kine, in heroes, steeds, and spoil,
Send us abundant store of food.
"
--Rg Veda, Book 9, HYMN 42. Soma Pavamana

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_(drink) :
Quote:

Soma (Sanskrit: soma) or Haoma (Avestan), from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sauma-, was a Vedic ritual drink[1] of importance among the early Indo-Iranians. It is mentioned in the Rigveda, particularly in the Soma Mandala. In the Avestan literature, Haoma has the entire Yasht 20 and Yasna 9-11 dedicated to it....

According to professor David W. Anthony, author of The Horse, the Wheel and Language, Soma was introduced into Indo-Iranian culture from the Bactria–Margiana Culture. The Old Indic religion probably emerged among Indo-European immigrants in the contact zone between the Zeravshan River (present-day Uzbekistan) and (present-day) Iran.[5] It was "a syncretic mixture of old Central Asian and new Indo-European elements",[5] which borrowed "distinctive religious beliefs and practices"[6] from the Bactria–Margiana Culture.[6] At least 383 non-Indo-European words were borrowed from this culture, including the god Indra and the ritual drink Soma.[7] According to Anthony,

    "Many of the qualities of Indo-Iranian god of might/victory, Verethraghna, were transferred to the adopted god Indra, who became the central deity of the developing Old Indic culture. Indra was the subject of 250 hymns, a quarter of the Rig Veda. He was associated more than any other deity with Soma..."




Edited by endogenous (09/21/16 03:11 AM)


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23664054 - 09/21/16 03:24 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Duncan Rowhl said:
With regards to blind spots, alongside the definition of 'God', you seem to have missed a large part of my reply which addresses all of your other errors, so I'll just have to assume you acknowledged the points in your own way.






Well, you are welcome to deceive yourself in that too if you want.

You seem to have plenty of time to devote to posting.

I don't. And I, for one, appreciate relatively short posts - although I have read your posts.


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: endogenous]
    #23664082 - 09/21/16 04:07 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It was somewhat of a given that it would conclude in quotes, which, regrettably are non relevant to your claim that 'God is an entheogen'.

The time you consume posting 'entheogen' after every instance of the word 'God' is well noted and the very cause of the 'attacks' as you perceived earlier by others and the reason for my intervention.

You've been given several answers (some very simple) as to why your hypothesis has no legs and indeed why you are receiving the responses that you are, but it's up to you to take heed.

Many people have many beliefs, but when you quote widespread, established religions incorrectly and indeed, tar a 'God' (pertaining to any and all religion) as a plant, you can be sure it will garner some kind of response (and unfortunate for you, sometimes educated ones), but I guess you know that - as does the author

Confirmation of having read my elongated posts is appreciated, even if the elongated errors of yours still remain unacknowledged, seemingly to save face on the remaining, proposed fallacy of 'God' (which has now ironically been exemplified as only one of 330,000,000 Gods), being a plant. 

As mentioned, it's up to you and granted, you aren't likely to stop, but then you'll know why the reactions or 'attacks' as you see them won't stop neither... :thumbup:


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/21/16 08:51 AM)


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Offlineendogenous
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23664190 - 09/21/16 06:10 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Go ahead and attack. It gives me the opportunity to prove you wrong - even if the truth isn't able to penetrate your iron barred brain as of yet.

"Because I know that you are obstinate, And your neck is an iron sinew And your forehead bronze"
-- Isaiah, 48,4


Edited by endogenous (09/21/16 06:19 AM)


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OfflineDuncan Rowhl
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Re: Why do mushrooms keep telling me... [Re: endogenous]
    #23664198 - 09/21/16 06:18 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

endogenous said:
Go ahead and attack. It gives me the opportunity to prove you wrong - even if the truth isn't able to penetrate your iron barred brain as of yet.

"Because I know that you are obstinate, And your neck is an iron sinew And your forehead bronze"
-- Isaiah, 48,4





I was referring to the people who were 'attacking' you, which is likely to continue when you continue to post the same controversial, uneducated statement.

Unfortunately, you haven't proven anyone wrong, nor will you.  Sadly, you've made several mistakes, contradicted your own illogical statements and dug sizeable holes for yourself.

The book is regarded only by juveniles and gullible conspiracy theorists who aren't well versed in theology. Q.E.D.

Again, it's a nice quote, but irrelevant and contradictory to your view, since The Bible accounts an omnipotent, heavenly God - not a plant.

Good luck on your venture nonetheless. :thumbup:


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (09/21/16 06:42 AM)


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