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OfflineTira
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PF Classic on Wheat Spawned to Monotub
    #23631450 - 09/10/16 06:49 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've inoculated 10 wheat jars with PF Classic MS syringe on 22.08.16

So these are the first signs of colonization:



and this is the first sign of contamination in one jar (1 down 9 to go)



I've moved it somewhere else and observing how it turns out before I toss it



and here are the others jars about 12 hours after the shake at %30 colonization (15 days into colonization)



couldn't shake one because it had green in it (2 down 8 to go)



and 4 days after the shake (19 days into colonization)



this one seems a bit bacterial to me:




Update:

Jars smelled really bad when I opened them, classic bacterial smell: sour&sweet.  I soaked the grains for 20 minutes before spawning and poured that water on my outdoor grow bed (where I buried my contaminated grows)

I spawned 8 jars to bulk with 1:1 ratio.  Used sheep manure/humic soil/vermiculite mixture (and some calicum sulfate) as substrate.  Mycelium seems to like it a lot .)  I'm planning on casing it with straight verm when it completely colonizes.



            Day 1                                  Day 3                                                                            Day  6                                Day 7                              Day 8                                Day 9

       


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Edited by Tira (09/27/16 04:09 AM)


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OfflinePsilosoulful

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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23631457 - 09/10/16 06:56 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Don't wanna rain on your parade, but you need to toss everything and start over. They are all contaminated.
You should've used a better grain to start with and used agar to inoculate your jars in a SAB.
Never use a MS syringe to grains and expect them to be completely clean, it's just not possible.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Psilosoulful]
    #23631485 - 09/10/16 07:23 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

MS to grain is absolutely possible without contamination. Provided his syringe was made properly,the issue here is most likely caused by preparation procedure or sterile technique.

Some Barley I'm playing with right now: (One control Jar)


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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Psilosoulful]
    #23631499 - 09/10/16 07:41 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Psilosoulful said:
Don't wanna rain on your parade, but you need to toss everything and start over. They are all contaminated.




What makes you say that they're all contaminated?  If you're talking about those brown spots against the glass, I think I just cooked the wheat a little too much so they stuck to glass when shaken, and I believe that's just uncolonized grain pressed against the glass.  They don't look wet or slimy and they smelled real good (like fresh mushrooms) when shaken.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23631606 - 09/10/16 08:34 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:rofl: MS>grain is possible to get clean jars!
*Shows bacterial jars off*

If the jar was too wet, condensation and water will pool on the bottom. Wet grains against the glass with thick ass disorganized mycelium around them isn't what you want, and is a tell tale sign of bacteria. Your eyes are 1000000x better at spotting contams than your nose.

Quote:

Mad Season said:
Quote:

Mad Season said:
It looks bacterial IMO.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21890806#21890806 bacteria in spawn. You can also get it from prepping the substrate too wet. If you read in the link it explains what happened when I spawned bacterial spawn.



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/remlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=149430&F_Board=22&Thread=21936821&Main=21936535

Read both of those thoroughly.




This is why clean spawn is so fuckin hard, and mushroom farms will pay HUGE amounts for someone who can produce clean spawn. Which is much more to it than smelling if it's shroomy. A 5 year old can smell if it's shroomy lol


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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Mad Season]
    #23631649 - 09/10/16 08:53 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mad Season said:

If the jar was too wet, condensation and water will pool on the bottom. Wet grains against the glass with thick ass disorganized mycelium around them isn't what you want, and is a tell tale sign of bacteria. Your eyes are 1000000x better at spotting contams than your nose.





I get it, those links were really useful, thanks a lot.  Guess most of them are bacterial, I PC around 90 minutes, maybe I should up that to 2 hours too.

But I think there is no need to toss everything just because spawn is bacterial? Bacteria means I can still go for it but I'll have higher chance of contams and lesser yield right?


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23631666 - 09/10/16 09:01 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

You got it. Bacteria is what happens tho before any molds can set in, so keep an eye out for molds, as usual.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23631671 - 09/10/16 09:04 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

If you're talking about my barley/nyjer, I was illustrating a grain of similar consistency to wheat can be used. I was just saying MS to grains isn't an issue. Agar to grain and G2G are more efficient though, I know.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: literberry]
    #23631678 - 09/10/16 09:08 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Except MS > grains is an issue. Explain how a mushroom cap, which opened up in open air, exposing spores to open air, can make a 100% clean syringe. The majority of people who ventured into agar in the first place happened because they couldn't get clean spawn. Once they got 100% clean inoculant, now they can have clean spawn. Coincidence? If I could consistently get clean spawn with a syringe, I wouldn't be saying to do agar all the time.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Mad Season]
    #23631691 - 09/10/16 09:20 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I had no problems getting mushrooms from MS syringe to grain, BUT as soon as i started using agar my yields went WAY up and I could pull off more flushes.  AGAR FTW!:super:


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Mad Season]
    #23631694 - 09/10/16 09:21 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've done MS to WBS hundreds of times. There is of course contamination, but my rate runs at about 5%. Each method has it's own caveats I'm not saying agar isn't the best way, but saying it's an issue to MS to grains seems a bit far.


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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: literberry]
    #23631704 - 09/10/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I also have some agar plates going on but didn't see any sign of growth yet.  I used a single drop of spore solution for each plate in a SAB after PCing them for 45 minutes.



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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: literberry]
    #23631706 - 09/10/16 09:31 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Point 1. Spores to grain can work provided the syringes are clean.

Point 2. Syringes are made from prints. Prints are usually made from fruits grown in open air. Prints are never 100% clean therefore syringes are never 100% clean.

Point 3. People can grow with syringes but given how far you will be set back by a dirty syringe it is safer for most people to avoid the risk. Especially since agar is pretty damn easy.

If a person was gonna use a spore syringe to grain or a spore syringe to LC I would always suggest the grain. It's the lesser of two evils. But it's not foolproof. Given the quality of syringes floating around I wouldn't be too trusting of them unless I made them myself. Even then it's a pretty ham fisted way to approach sustainable growing with a high success rate.

I got into agar on my own simply because I couldn't get a clean syringe for a vendor (sponsors) to save my life. Rather than endlessly rolling the dice I decided to take the matter in my own hands, cleaned up the cultures myself and moved forward with a high success rate.

That will not be everyone's experience of course. But to act like spores to grain is a solid method for everyone is short sighted. Let's give people as many options for success as possible and that way no matter what they have a shot at success.



If it wasn't an issue, people like pasty wouldn't have gotten into agar. Idc how many jars you've made clean, it's still an unnecessary gamble, that's easy to avoid. I started off doing MS > grains, and open air g2ging successfully, but I can openly admit that yes it was luck, because it eventually ran out, and definitely not worth doing if success is your goal.


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Edited by Mad Season (09/10/16 09:37 AM)


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Mad Season]
    #23631763 - 09/10/16 10:03 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

You're absolutely right. I just don't want anyone to think they can't start out that way. Anyone who loves this hobby probably ends up eyeballs deep in plates. I wasn't trying to be argumentative. I really respect your work btw.


Edited by literberry (09/10/16 10:05 AM)


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: literberry]
    #23631772 - 09/10/16 10:07 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Definitely alright to start out anyway you want. And thanks for being respectful :smile:. If success and growing more is your goal, you really should be doing agar. I mean if you like gambling, keep on gambling lol. But personally I try to get as good results as I can, and agar is what did that for me. :smile:


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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Mad Season]
    #23632279 - 09/10/16 12:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Btw can you recommend me some good writings on agar?  I've already read the ones on your signature Mad.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira] * 1
    #23632294 - 09/10/16 12:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)



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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Mad Season]
    #23632498 - 09/10/16 01:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Now you're talkin .) thanks a lot


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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23640557 - 09/13/16 03:23 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Update

Half of the jars look like this now:



and the other half like this:



First 4 clearly looks better than the other 4.  They all look fully colonized now but I was wondering if letting them consolidate for some time would make them stronger and help clean the jars from bacteria a bit?


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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23641856 - 09/13/16 02:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry for bumping but I'm really curious about this and will go shop for tubs after I get some answers

Quote:

Tira said:

They all look fully colonized now but I was wondering if letting them consolidate for some time would make them stronger and help clean the jars from bacteria a bit?




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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23641964 - 09/13/16 03:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Letting grain jars "consolidate" gives the bacteria more time to grow.  You will never have less bacteria than when you started.  There is no "cleaning jars of bacteria".  If it were that simple we'd just recommend everybody let their jars sit til all the bacteria was gone.  As we know from things like leaving food in the fridge, or on the counter, things do not get cleaner over time.


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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Inocuole]
    #23642095 - 09/13/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Letting grain jars "consolidate" gives the bacteria more time to grow.  You will never have less bacteria than when you started.  There is no "cleaning jars of bacteria".  If it were that simple we'd just recommend everybody let their jars sit til all the bacteria was gone.  As we know from things like leaving food in the fridge, or on the counter, things do not get cleaner over time.




Ok thanks for clearing that up.  So would you reccomend waiting few days more before spawning for consolidation or not?


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23642130 - 09/13/16 04:25 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

If they're 100% then you should spawn now.


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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Inocuole]
    #23643279 - 09/13/16 10:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

What about dunking them?


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23643657 - 09/14/16 02:20 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tira said:
Update

Half of the jars look like this now:



and the other half like this:



First 4 clearly looks better than the other 4.  They all look fully colonized now but I was wondering if letting them consolidate for some time would make them stronger and help clean the jars from bacteria a bit?




You would only need to consolidate if you plan on fruiting in the jar IMO. Otherwise, it will only serve to make you work harder at separating the kernels. I used to use "pearled" farro (a type of heirloom wheat) which had been polished to the point of exposing the center of the kernel. I had limited success with it due to the nutes being exposed, which is an invitation to comtamination! Your wheat seems to be somewhat similar. Listen to the more experienced heads....I learned the hard way. Whole grain berries and agar are where it's at! Just my 2 cents.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23643738 - 09/14/16 03:26 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tira said:
What about dunking them?




it seems like u are getting PF jars mixed up with grain jars.

U do not dunk jars of colonized grain and u do not consoldated them either. Only do that for pf jars because its a complete substrate.

grain jars are missing a casing layer such as coir.

I mean, u could fruit off grains itself, but the yield is poor.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23643951 - 09/14/16 06:57 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I've soaked my grain jars in the past for around 20 minutes. :shrug:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17616982#17616982


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Edited by blueconfusion (09/14/16 06:59 AM)


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OfflineTira
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23647418 - 09/15/16 12:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:


it seems like u are getting PF jars mixed up with grain jars.

U do not dunk jars of colonized grain and u do not consoldated them either. Only do that for pf jars because its a complete substrate.





Actually I was referring to this when I used the term dunking but maybe soaking would be a better choice.  Soaking the grains before spawning seems to be clearly beneficial but I wondered if having jars this bacterial would change anything.  Guess not.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat [Re: Tira]
    #23648187 - 09/15/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tira said:
Sorry for bumping but I'm really curious about this and will go shop for tubs after I get some answers

Quote:

Tira said:

They all look fully colonized now but I was wondering if letting them consolidate for some time would make them stronger and help clean the jars from bacteria a bit?








No and no.

We do not let spawn consolidate. It is most vigorous right at full colonization, use it now


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: mushpunx]
    #23680425 - 09/26/16 04:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Update:

Jars smelled really bad when I opened them, classic bacterial smell: sour&sweet.  I soaked the grains for 20 minutes before spawning and poured that water on my outdoor grow bed (where I buried my contaminated grows)

I spawned 8 jars to bulk with 1:1 ratio.  Used sheep manure/humic soil/vermiculite mixture (and some calicum sulfate) as substrate.  Mycelium seems to like it a lot .)  I'm planning on casing it with straight verm when it completely colonizes.



            Day 1                                  Day 3                                                                            Day  6                                Day 7                              Day 8                                Day 9

       


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: Tira]
    #23681698 - 09/26/16 11:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

ah i see dunking and soaking, mixed them up. i see.

nice casing there! looks good and white.

I used to use wheat berries, never had issues with bacteria. Maybe try simmering them before PCing them? Do u PC for 1.5 hrs?


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23681800 - 09/26/16 11:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It's all the batch per bacth of grains . I've used it just fine and light bacteria is best in trays. Small amount of sub and spawn. Only the cleanest spawn is what i use for big tubs. 8 trays with same ratio is better for fail 2 out of 8 instead on the whole tub


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #23682145 - 09/27/16 04:07 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
ah i see dunking and soaking, mixed them up. i see.

nice casing there! looks good and white.

I used to use wheat berries, never had issues with bacteria. Maybe try simmering them before PCing them? Do u PC for 1.5 hrs?





Didn't case it yet.

I did simmer them, and yes PCd for 1.5 hours.  I guess bacteria is always possible with grains unless you start with agar.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: Tira]
    #23683610 - 09/27/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Does it look ready for casing? What do you think?


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: Tira]
    #23683719 - 09/27/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Don't case it..fruit as soon as possible


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: cronicr]
    #23683785 - 09/27/16 04:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cronicr said:
Don't case it..fruit as soon as possible




Why not?


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: Tira]
    #23683791 - 09/27/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The linger you put off fruiting the better chance of molds...bacteria weakens subs.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: cronicr]
    #23683830 - 09/27/16 05:02 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Not even a thin layer of straight verm?


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: Tira]
    #23683876 - 09/27/16 05:22 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Give your first grow a chance without casing.  Cubes don't need a casing layer to grow.  Some people have better results with casing, and some without. You have to figure out what works for you.  So far my best tub was a uncased tub. But I want to master casing as well.


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Re: PF Classic on Wheat to Monotub [Re: Tookitooki]
    #23684604 - 09/27/16 09:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Most of the time a thin layer of coir on top basicly casing it is easier. Late casing causes more problems then worst most times


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