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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2374120 - 02/24/04 01:27 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Luvdemshrooms's post was a shambles of misrepresentation and sloppy reasoning



So you can back that up with overwhelmingly convincing evidence or will it just be evidence that supports your beliefs?




You haven't been following your own thread, have you?

I've already shown how the NewsMax article misrepresented the Princeton/Columbia/NOAA study.

I (and others) have already demolished the nonsense from Peter Huber in the article.

You, on the other hand, have been sitting on your ass calling people closed-minded because they don't unquestioningly swallow the crap you posted. Yeah, sorry, I am closed-minded when it comes to moronic garbage and lies. Just a habit I can't shake.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2374214 - 02/24/04 02:09 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I am not aware of any similar, legitimate (unlike the petition you mentioned) scientific bodies that publicly endorse the view that man-made climate change is not a reality.

Hang on Echo...the neocons have got Ginger Spice, James Brown..and a guy from MASH on their side remember...:smile2:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2374734 - 02/24/04 05:38 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

You haven't been following your own thread, have you?


I've been following.


Quote:

I (and others) have already demolished the nonsense from Peter Huber in the article.



I'm sure that as a legend in your own mind, you probably think you have. I have seen no demolishing.


Quote:

You, on the other hand, have been sitting on your ass calling people closed-minded



Strikes me as accurate when referring to someone who seems to think they have all the answers.


Quote:

because they don't unquestioningly swallow the crap you posted.



No-one asked nor claimed anyone should swallow anything. It was posted to show that not all agree with the doom and gloomers and to provoke discussion. Judging by the numbers of views and responses... it did just that.

As there is no overwhelming scientific consensus, there is still lots to talk about.

Unless of course, like yours, the minds are made up.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2374970 - 02/24/04 08:45 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Well said, Echo.
Yeah, the biggest thing I run into when talking about this are people who want some form of concrete evidence and prediction. And I try to explain to them that this is essentially impossible. The Japanese have the world's most powerful computer proccessing world climate data and, as far as I've heard, it's doing a crappy job. Because there are no assured predictions, and the weather's fine now, people assume that it's not an urgent issue. So I try to explain to them that while there isn't going to be some apocalyptic climate change in the next few decades, such change deosn't just happen over night. The entire system is based on tipping points. These tipping points can affect climate hundreds of years down the road. So that's where our concerns need to be. Everyone should educate themselves and promote further research.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2375205 - 02/24/04 10:52 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, here they come again!

Content-free posts!

Ranting, raving, name-calling, unsubstantiated assertions, and mindless repetition in place of sustained argument, analysis, or evidence.

I always suspected that you were actually the beta version of an artificial intelligence program, and I see I've been proven right.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Gijith]
    #2375260 - 02/24/04 11:13 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I know what you mean.

Tipping points, discontinuities, attractor points, emergent properties--basically any kind of reasoning and analysis that strays from a purely linear model seems alien and weird to the average person. In fact people who accept non-linear models and those who only accept linear models might as well be speaking different languages. Their fundamental assumptions are completely different so of course it will be difficult to find agreement.

The problem facing educators is that so many people have trouble mastering even the foundational linear models that incorporating non-linear subjects such as chaos theory into the curriculum seems like a far-off dream.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2375355 - 02/24/04 11:38 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Ranting, raving, name-calling, unsubstantiated assertions, and mindless repetition in place of sustained argument, analysis, or evidence.

I can't think who you mean  :smile2:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2376796 - 02/25/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Xlea321]
    #2376797 - 02/25/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:lol: :lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 804
Loc: Dade County
Re: A look at global warming. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2377441 - 02/26/04 12:13 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

forests only act as a carbon sink in the early stages of growth after a massive disturbance event, such as fire or harvesting. As a forest ages a large proportion of the biomass accumulates in the upper trophic levels of the ecosystem. These sources include fungi, bacteria, and animals. All of which release CO2 from respiration.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: thescientist]
    #2377672 - 02/26/04 01:48 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

The obvious answer if to cut down all the trees and shellack them to prevent decomposition.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2379663 - 02/26/04 02:44 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I find it odd that no one has considered the fact that water vapor and clouds are the primary contributors to the "greenhouse effect" take an environmental chemistry class and you will learn all about it. Water vapor and clouds account for anywhere between 92-98% of the greenhouse effect, you do the math, subtract that number from 100% and see how much of the greenhouse effect may be attributed to greenhouse gases. The primary reason for this is that the density of water vapor increases by about a factor of a thousand between the surface of the earth and about 10km above the earth, and once again the major issue with global warming is water vapor. Dont forget that, in the upper troposphere, the wator vapor increases as temperature increases. The exact physics of this is not well understood at all, and current models neglect to factor in water vapor properly, which causes gross errors and exaggerations in calculations and predictions within the modeling systems.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2379809 - 02/26/04 03:28 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Well of course--if there were no water vapor and no greenhouse effect at all the global mean temperature would be -2 degrees Fahrenheit. Nobody is saying let's get rid of the greenhouse effect altogether.

Atmospheric water vapor is also increasing, partly because of human activity (methane emissions) and partly for reasons that are apparently unclear to scientists.

I would imagine that improvements are being made all the time in terms of incorporating water vapor into climate models, although of course none of the models is perfect. What is the source of your claim that "current models neglect to factor in water vapor properly"?

Here's an interesting article on rising water vapor levels:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/MediaAlerts/2001/200104254688.html


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2379985 - 02/26/04 04:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Do a search on work done by Richard S. Lindzen, he is a meteorology professor at MIT. His work explains a lot. Show me one model that incorporates water vapor into its model not using an arbitrary value, and I will shut my mouth. Every thing I have looked at has either not factored in water vapor, or set an arbitrary value for water vapor.


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InvisibleGijith
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Registered: 12/04/03
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2380498 - 02/26/04 06:59 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I've got a hunch that some of the rising water vapor in the atmosphere may be tied to the hundreds of billions of gallons of water melting off the ice caps every year. Could be wrong though.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Gijith]
    #2380580 - 02/26/04 07:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

edit, added last comment
Quote:

Gijith said:
I've got a hunch that some of the rising water vapor in the atmosphere may be tied to the hundreds of billions of gallons of water melting off the ice caps every year. Could be wrong though.




Why do you think that the ice caps are melting?? THe artic ocean is currently frozen over right? right. Obviously this prevents evaporation which under normal circumstances would go off into the atmosphere and come back as snow, revitalizing the ice caps. Over time the water does not evaporate, it simply falls back onto the water and freezes there, causing a decrease in size of the ice caps. Also if the temperature was rising, the ice caps would melt and then there would be enough water from evaporation to replenish the ice caps.


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Edited by blacksabbathrulz (02/26/04 07:49 PM)


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InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: A look at global warming. [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2380668 - 02/26/04 08:07 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Really, man. I don't want to insult anyone in this forum, but GO READ A BOOK ON GLACIAL GEOLOGY!!!! Almost 100 percent of what you just said is complete fiction. Here, I'll reccomend one I just finished: Glacial Geomorphology and Geology, by I Peter Martini, Michael E Brookfield and Steven Sadura. It's about 350 pages and has lots of pictures. Pretty boring though.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Gijith]
    #2381003 - 02/26/04 10:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I have read books pertaining to the topic, however I don't mean to insult anyone, but some people just don't know how to properly interpret science. I would recommend reading Weather Machine-How our weather works and why it is changing it's by Nigel Calder.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Gijith]
    #2381007 - 02/26/04 10:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
Really, man. I don't want to insult anyone in this forum, but GO READ A BOOK ON GLACIAL GEOLOGY!!!! Almost 100 percent of what you just said is complete fiction. Here, I'll reccomend one I just finished: Glacial Geomorphology and Geology, by I Peter Martini, Michael E Brookfield and Steven Sadura. It's about 350 pages and has lots of pictures. Pretty boring though.




I would like you to prove that what I said is fiction. I would be amazed if you could, as you would singlehandly prove to me, that you are the smartest man alive.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2381784 - 02/27/04 03:07 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
I have read books pertaining to the topic, however I don't mean to insult anyone, but some people just don't know how to properly interpret science. I would recommend reading Weather Machine-How our weather works and why it is changing it's by Nigel Calder.




Dude, I checked that book on Amazon--it's 30 years old!

Nigel Calder is not a geologist or meteorologist. He's a popular science writer and broadcaster who has written books on everything from comets to diesel boat repair.

The book that Gijith recommended is a university textbook written by specialists and published in 2001.

First rule: don't question others' ability to interpret science when your idea of science is a watered-down summary that is thirty years out of date.


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