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Anonymous

Re: A look at global warming. [Re: silversoul7]
    #2368915 - 02/22/04 07:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

maybe we don't have to pay a lot later though. maybe global warming isn't nearly as big of a problem as people think. i must say that i'm rather poorly informed about the science of global warming, and i honestly have no real opinion here. what i did want to make clear though is that there are indeed serious costs to reducing our CO2 emissions. do the benefits outweigh the costs? i really don't know.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: afoaf]
    #2369572 - 02/22/04 10:27 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Dude, that is one longass cut and paste job. Would you do me a favor and edit your post to leave just the link? Maybe leave a few excerpts of particular significance to pique our interest.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Edame]
    #2369588 - 02/22/04 10:32 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

edame writes:

Right, I guess the rest of the world has been hoodwinked, and the government that's being accused of manipulation and deception in scientific policy (among other things) is one of the few who can see the real truth (just like those WMDs).

I don't know if "hoodwinked" is the correct word or not, but there as many reputable scientists disputing manmade climate change as there are those claiming it is occurring. It is very far from being an established fact.

The governments of some countries appear to believe those scientists who claim manmade climate change is occurring. The governments of other countries appear to believe the other group. And doubtless the governments of still other countries don't care either way.

pinky


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2370129 - 02/23/04 12:39 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
The process of making solar cells creates a significant amount of pollution and it takes nearly as much electricity to make one as it will generate in it's useful lifespan, windmill generators kill hundreds of thousands of birds each year, and yes, food is the most expensive and least efficient fuel of them all.


Basically, you can't get out of bed in the morning without killing something cute and furry or oppressing someone in some third world country.




Where did I write anything about solar cells?

Why not try addressing something other than imaginary posts?


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2370179 - 02/23/04 12:57 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Come now, luv, I questioned the facticity of ONE of the points made in that post--an eminently moronic bit of reasoning--and then you came back and said some absurd nonsense about how my criticism was misplaced because the title of the article was not "Facts about Global Warming." Which would imply that you believe that any article that doesn't begin with the title "Facts about such and such" doesn't have to be held to the same standards of evidence.

As for the CO2 sink theory (and the authors of the study, if you read it, make clear that it is still in the theory stage) it is certainly interesting, but even the authors of the study itself (as opposed to the author of the NewsMax article) don't necessarily believe that it renders global warming a moot point. You have to understand that real scientists don't jump from one conclusion to another that way.

Here are some quotes from the report:

"The study, which its authors said was subject to confirmation, may mean
that land-based carbon-absorbing zones could play a greater role than expected in managing greenhouse warming of the atmosphere. "

"Team members emphasized that while the North American sink may
prove important in worldwide management of atmospheric carbon absorption,
their results should not be interpreted as justification for claiming that pre-
existing carbon sinks in a given region act to offset that region's combustion-
produced carbon dioxide."

"The researchers stress that all of these mechanisms are temporary. It is
thus inevitable that this sink will eventually stop absorbing carbon dioxide at these levels."

"The researchers also caution that the size and location of the sink is
variable. Other studies of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere show that global
sinks vary by almost a factor of five from year to year and may also vary in
location. The results in this paper may not be representative of periods outside 1988 to 1992, they added."

This is what happens when you actually go back AND READ PRIMARY SOURCES instead of just relying on the biased interpretations of ideologically motivated commentators. If you knew the first thing about research or the scientific method, you would understand that, but I guess that's too much to ask from a reader of NewsMax.com.

So you see, luv, my beef is not with the Princeton and Columbia researchers who take a cautious approach to their findings, but with nitwits like Huber and the author of the NewsMax.com article, and with the boobs who read articles like that and think that they're an accurate representation of the state of scientific knowledge.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Phred]
    #2370189 - 02/23/04 01:00 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I don't know if "hoodwinked" is the correct word or not, but there as many reputable scientists disputing manmade climate change as there are those claiming it is occurring.

As many? I call. Prove it.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2370267 - 02/23/04 01:28 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

blacksabbathrulz,
I'm sorry man, but you don't seem to understand the science of this. At all. I'm about to finish an environmental research geology degree. The changing global temperatures is - and I can say this confidently - the most complex concept of this planet. It's chaos theory to an extreme. There is no scientist on Earth - and I can also say this confidently - that can give difinitive predictions on Global Warming. But here's what nearly all legit scientists (and by legit, I mean scientists that work for Universities, not industry) agree on: the planet is warming, rapidly. It's warmer now than it has been millions of years (though it came close to where we're currently about 100,00 years ago). There are at least a dozen major factors that contribute to this. The ones that have the biggest impact on the overall clmate of the Earth are Malankovich cycles, which are related to the eliptical orbit of the Earth and other astronomical happenings. We have no control over it. This isn't a guess. This is something nearly every researcher on Earth currently agrees on. But, like I said, these cycles are just one at least a dozen factors. I don't wanna bore everybody with them, but yes CO2 is one. A major one. In fact, the growing consensus is that we should be in an ice age right now. It should have began about 10,000 years ago. But it didn't due to human expansion. Then it almost began again about 150 years ago. But it didn't due to (this is a hypothesis) increased industry. We're continually starving off an ice age due to what we're putting into the atmosphere. It's plain and simple.
Some people may think this is a good thing. But the main thing people don't realize about global climate is how extremely fragile it is. There have been periods in the Earht's history when it's been so hot that there hasn't been any liquid water. There's also strong evidence that 100% of the world has been covered in ice more than once. THESE THINGS CAN HAPPEN AGAIN. And they come on much faster than people realize. These things are extremely delicate. You saying that 0.14 degree change (which is not accurate by the way) is not significant is horribly ignorant. I don't have time to go through all of this. I'll post again. Go read a book on ocean currents and a book on glacial geology. Ones published within the last five years. You'll understand that this is not something to fuck around with. And don't argue about money. All the money in the world isn't gonna save shit unless people start coming to terms with this SOON.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Gijith]
    #2370287 - 02/23/04 01:33 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Finally! Somebody on this forum who actually has a clue what he's talking about.

Thanks for a very informative post. I look forward to reading those in the future.

But be prepared for a lot of very angry and ignorant people to attack you. It's not easy work educating those who have no wish to learn, but your efforts will not go unnoticed or unappreciated.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Edame]
    #2370384 - 02/23/04 02:06 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

(just like those WMDs).

Think we're seeing a pattern here Edame. Notice how the same people pushing "climate change doesn't exist" fantasy are the same who pushed the WMD in Iraq fantasy?


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2370598 - 02/23/04 03:43 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

EchoVortex said:
Finally! Somebody on this forum who actually has a clue what he's talking about.

Thanks for a very informative post. I look forward to reading those in the future.

But be prepared for a lot of very angry and ignorant people to attack you. It's not easy work educating those who have no wish to learn, but your efforts will not go unnoticed or unappreciated.



hmm, I find this to be incredible hypocritical, you are assuming that every person that disagrees is ignorant, and not willing to "learn", how can you say that, when there are issues that you may seem unwilling to "learn" about. there is no reason for people to be angry or attack anyone here.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2370602 - 02/23/04 03:50 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I think You've discovered the opposite of enlightenment.


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #2370603 - 02/23/04 03:51 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

to quote echovortex
"This is what happens when you actually go back AND READ PRIMARY SOURCES instead of just relying on the biased interpretations of ideologically motivated commentators. If you knew the first thing about research or the scientific method, you would understand that, but I guess that's too much to ask from a reader of NewsMax.com.

So you see, luv, my beef is not with the Princeton and Columbia researchers who take a cautious approach to their findings, but with nitwits like Huber and the author of the NewsMax.com article, and with the boobs who read articles like that and think that they're an accurate representation of the state of scientific knowledge."

I have somewhat of a discrepancy with your criticism here, you act as if you are an authority on science, but I notice that your "facts" are all from study's, not actual experiments, with study's it is impossible to determine definitively causaution of problems, in general, studies are the least accurate source of information. And I think that it is wrong to attack someone on their sources, when you use studies (which cannot prove anything) to support your views.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2370738 - 02/23/04 05:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2370855 - 02/23/04 07:14 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
I think You've discovered the opposite of enlightenment.



Yeah, I know, that was an attack on my part  :ooo:, however I meant merely that it would be innapropriate to attack someone personally based on their understanding/beliefs about global warming, I was making an attack based on categorization of people.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2370912 - 02/23/04 08:16 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Why dont you reply to Gijith's post?


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2371006 - 02/23/04 09:42 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

If somebody disagrees with my values, that doesn't mean they're ignorant, simply that they disagree with my values. I'm cool with that.

The discussion here isn't values, however, it's what exactly the current state of understanding about a particular issue is. Luvdemshrooms's post was a shambles of misrepresentation and sloppy reasoning, and I called him on it, as is my right. If you have facts to the contrary to contribute feel free to do so.

And why are you replying to me anyway when I never addressed a post to you? I believe it's Gijith you should be replying to.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2371020 - 02/23/04 09:51 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I have somewhat of a discrepancy with your criticism here, you act as if you are an authority on science, but I notice that your "facts" are all from study's, not actual experiments, with study's it is impossible to determine definitively causaution of problems, in general, studies are the least accurate source of information. And I think that it is wrong to attack someone on their sources, when you use studies (which cannot prove anything) to support your views.

You're a bit confused there, Skippy.

I was not citing the study as supporting proof of my own points--I was citing it to show how the author of the NewsMax.com article that Luvdemshrooms posted distorted the contents of that study. If you have a problem with the study, direct your criticisms at LDS since he posted it in the first place.

I'm flattered that you've taken such an inordinate interest in my posts, replying to me not once but twice before I directed a single word at you, but I suggest that before you post another one of your prematurely triumphal critiques you actually address the points raised by Gijith.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Gijith]
    #2371163 - 02/23/04 11:06 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gijith said:
... by legit, I mean scientists that work for Universities, not industry



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
That is silly, really silly.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: Evolving]
    #2371246 - 02/23/04 11:21 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

To a degree but not really that silly. Scientists in Universities are more likely to be neutrally funded but big business still finances plenty of research that is carried out by universities.


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Always Smi2le


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: A look at global warming. [Re: GazzBut]
    #2371280 - 02/23/04 11:32 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

This is a good point. I should clarify that. There are two main fields open to people with geology or environmental science degrees. Those being education/research or the petrol industry (there are many more, but those ar ethe two big ones). The petrol industry doesn't usually bother to fund University work because they have deep enough pockets to fund their own science. When you compare papers from most universities to papers from most private petrol stuff, there are major differences in conclusions. I don't mean to say that all industry or private science is not legit. Many amazing things have come out of private and industry research. What I said was meant to apply to geosciences.


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