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Invisibletribesman
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Is non-spatial actually a thing ?
    #23628692 - 09/09/16 10:59 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

" According to Descartes, the physical world (res extensa) is essentially
extended, whereas mental substances (res cogitans) are nonspatial
entities; i.e., they are indivisible and have no shape, size, texture, and
cannot be located in space. Colin McGinn agrees with Descartes that the mind
is nonspatial, but McGinn’s perspective on the mind-body problem is a kind of
property dualism, not substance dualism, entailing that conscious states are
unexplainable and nonspatial properties of brains."

~ Ståle Gundersen,
Is Consciousness a
Nonspatial Phenomenon?

The only things I myself can imagine as non-spatial are time, as it acts as a flux in space, and consciousness, which is obviously a non-spatial phenomenon but which is apparently structured in time.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: tribesman]
    #23629245 - 09/09/16 02:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tribesman said:
...

The only things I myself can imagine as non-spatial are time, as it acts as a flux in space, and consciousness, which is obviously a non-spatial phenomenon but which is apparently structured in time.




indeed language is problematical and hypnotic
I suggest web searching 'reification' and 'Nominalization'.

It is surprising that many understand some level of math,
but are completely blind as to abstraction and parts of speech,
as they affect our thinking.

for example consider that time has no duration, as it cannot step outside itself to measure itself.
likewise:
for example consider that space has no size, as it cannot step outside itself to measure itself.
this is simple logic
and amazing
and totally ignored


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: tribesman]
    #23629495 - 09/09/16 03:49 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

If you believe there could be dimensions beyond spacetime, then yes.  String theory posits that there are ten.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23629539 - 09/09/16 04:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

mind which is associative is pretty much non-spatial, i.e. each and all ideas and memories and sensations of all sizes fit into it as if no space at all were necessary. big scenes or small scenes or both simultaneously take no space. the speed of thought is also curious since it takes no time to make a linkage.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23629560 - 09/09/16 04:07 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, rgv, excellent points.  As OP mentioned as well, consciousness is non-spatial and I would add non-temporal, as you say.  It is either non-dimensional or higher-dimensional.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: tribesman]
    #23633330 - 09/10/16 05:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

generally some think of psychedlics as mind expanding
and mind as free from being localized in space

however
consider
all the salvia reports

of people who become trapped in couches, walls, chairs and carpets...

hmmm ...


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Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23633653 - 09/10/16 07:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

"The physical world" is a strange notion, and also wrong. Thanks Descartes, for trying, but we're confused now . . .


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23633668 - 09/10/16 07:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

they are only trapped because they forgot how to distinguish their left pillow from their right. given enough shroom or lsd they would still be stuck and for a longer time too.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23634421 - 09/10/16 11:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
... distinguish their left pillow from their right. ...




????


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23634458 - 09/11/16 12:16 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Timnmen, sissors and clothes pins?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23634830 - 09/11/16 07:01 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
... distinguish their left pillow from their right. ...




????



When I was a couch I could feel the skin on the pillows and the puffy feeling with little relief.


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
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Posts: 10,812
Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: tribesman]
    #23637116 - 09/11/16 08:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tribesman said:
" According to Descartes, the physical world (res extensa) is essentially
extended, whereas mental substances (res cogitans) are nonspatial
entities; i.e., they are indivisible and have no shape, size, texture, and
cannot be located in space. Colin McGinn agrees with Descartes that the mind
is nonspatial, but McGinn’s perspective on the mind-body problem is a kind of
property dualism, not substance dualism, entailing that conscious states are
unexplainable and nonspatial properties of brains."

~ Ståle Gundersen,
Is Consciousness a
Nonspatial Phenomenon?

The only things I myself can imagine as non-spatial are time, as it acts as a flux in space, and consciousness, which is obviously a non-spatial phenomenon but which is apparently structured in time.




I think a simpler way of describing Descartes idea is with implicit concepts(res cogitans) and explicit concepts(res extensa).

I would say human sentience is a mixture of explicit sensations and implicit perceptions.
In my view consciousness alone is only explicit sensations.
However, consciousness can become sentience through the development of a conscience and the ability to perceive implicit perceptions. 

Time and space are inherently linked as Einstein showed with E=MC^2 so I don't think it's correct to say that time is non-spatial.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Invisibletribesman
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: sudly]
    #23637680 - 09/12/16 05:04 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

E=MC2 is relevant to matter and energy and not spacetime I thought. I'm not clear on the relevant spacetime equation. Isn't it also correct that the relativity of space and time is demonstrable through the introduction of velocity ?

The ambiguity for me is in the congruence of space and time; space being an extension and capacity for reification, and time being the reifying flux.

I think tis is actually written by Ulrich Libbrecht.

" It became clear that yu-chou is not identical with heaven and earth (as later philosophers sometimes pretend), but that yu-chou originates from to basic data: (1)The void, which has extension, and produces the yu; (2)The tao which creates a dynamism in this void by turning around: thus realizing cyclic temporality, chou. Only both these conditions produce an energy, which as a field of force, fills the whole universe. For Chinese thinking space is not a pure extension, not a mathematical space, but a 'space-time'."

~ from Time and Temporality in Intercultural Perspective
edited by Douwe Tiemersma, Henk Oosterling.

Something else I'm stuck with is this:

What is time's equivalent to the geometry of space? I heard of spacetime geometry, but what is time's metric?

Clocks I notice in allowing us to 'keep track of time', what they are actually doing is spatialising time.


Edited by tribesman (09/12/16 05:08 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: tribesman]
    #23638051 - 09/12/16 09:35 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

E=mc² is intimately tied up with the concept of spacetime.  This equation comes out of the math for the Special Theory of Relativity, which describes spacetime and the need to posit the interdependence of space and time.  Space, time, mass, and energy are all sides of a four-sided coin.  And one can measure time as space and space as time.  For example, one could measure a year in distance -- the distance a photon will travel in one year.  One could measure a mile as time -- the amount of time it takes for a photon to traverse the distance. 

One cannot have space without time, or time without space.  And one cannot have mass without spacetime, energy without spacetime, or energy without mass and vice versa.

Light (energy) defines spacetime.  A given distance that light travels will have a corresponding passage of time for an observer (unless they are traveling at the speed of light, which we think is impossible for massive objects), and a given amount of time that light travels will require a given distance to be able to do so.

Spacetime.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibletribesman
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23638256 - 09/12/16 11:17 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

So the constant C is the spacetime element of the equation ?

Still this is only a theory of the relationship between those four elements and not a conclusive explanation of the nature of spacetime.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: tribesman]
    #23638284 - 09/12/16 11:38 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, c is the maximum velocity for anything traveling in spacetime.  Given that, light defines the dynamics.  Time cannot exist apart from space, and space cannot exist apart from time.

That's essentially Special Relativity, in very general terms.  There are a lot of physical consequences, like E=mc².

There is no conclusive explanation of the nature of spacetime other than that, unless you include General Relativity, which brings in gravitational acceleration.  Also, we still don't even know whether spacetime is quantized or continuous.

I mean it's like asking why is a raven like a writing desk.  Well, there's no good way to answer that.  We know what we know and not more.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisibletribesman
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23638310 - 09/12/16 11:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

...abd so Einstein's theory is true enough.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: tribesman]
    #23638322 - 09/12/16 11:57 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, it's been verified in dozens of ways.  The GPS in your phone, for example, wouldn't work without the equations of relativity.  Examples are numerous.

It has the added benefit of making sense, where quantum mechanics, for example, might be a little lacking in that department.  Of course it has been verified even more precisely than relativity.


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Invisibletribesman
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23638363 - 09/12/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

OK so how do we move forward with regards the nature of spacetime? For example a geometry of spacetime, it seems counter intuitive to use the word geometry for a Nonspatial phenomena even if time is a tangent to space. What mathematical model can be used to explore and define temporal forms or structures ?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is non-spatial actually a thing ? [Re: tribesman]
    #23638395 - 09/12/16 12:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OK so how do we move forward with regards the nature of spacetime? For example a geometry of spacetime, it seems counter intuitive to use the word geometry for a Nonspatial phenomena even if time is a tangent to space. What mathematical model can be used to explore and define temporal forms or structures ?




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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