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OfflineTipote
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Journey to the West Bank * 7
    #23615994 - 09/05/16 07:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Hello everyone. As some of you will know, I've just been in Palestine for just over a month where I was teaching English in UNRWA schools in a refugee camp near Hebron. I thought I would share some of my experience and perhaps this thread could serve as an AMA about life within Palestine, on my perspective of what I encountered and the views I heard from Palestinians.

As some of you will know, concision is not my strong suit.

Arrival

Palestine doesn't have any airports so to go to Palestine one must either fly to Jordan and cross the border or to fly into Israel and cross the "border".

On the plane to Tel Aviv, a British Jew next to me started questioning me and bringing up lots of political points seemingly to prompt me to give my perspective. This guy was blasting the idea of Apartheid in Israel and was bitching constantly about the BDS movement (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions on Israel), both concepts seemed absolutely ridiculous to him yet he seemed to support the idea of a boycott of Saudi Arabia. I kept my own opinions to myself but asked him if he had ever been to the West Bank. He said that he would be killed instantly if he tried. My conversation with him haunted me for a lot of my trip when seeing things that he was probably never exposed to.

Because there were some hijabis in our group, they were swiftly pulled out for about 6 hours in the interrogation room. For those who do not know, this often happens to anyone of islamic appearance. Those concerned must write out the names of their family members for a few generations, give a variety of personal information, occasionally will be asked for email/facebook access, and generally questioned on one's intentions when visiting. Israeli agents made it seem to the girls that they knew everything they were up to in the UK (they assumed they were activist) and gave their passports back on the condition that they don't attend protests in the UK. LOL what

Jerusalem


Jerusalem is a beautiful city but a main hot spot for tensions for obvious reasons. Israeli flags dominate the area, and roof tops with Palestinian flags face the wrath of security services. Many houses that were lived in my Palestinians were transferred to Israeli Jews in a process referred to as the Judisation of Jerusalem. The Old City is actually divided into Christian, Armenian, Muslim and Jewish Quarters. I was staying in the Muslim Quarter.

Under international law, Jerusalem is divided but you wouldn't know this from being there. Even from not being there, when you look on google, trip advisor and other online resources, Jerusalem is set at the undivided capital of Israel. The occupations and annexations translate into the virtual world too.

I found people in Jerusalem to not be that friendly, I assumed this is because of the occupation. Internationals, Palestinians and Israeli Jews are all in one place, amidst the occupation. Internationals and Israelis are able to see the same places as the Palestinians see, but don't seem to see the same thing.

On the very steps to our hostel there were constant Israeli soldiers positioned and occasionally you would see settlers with assault rifles on their backs strolling through the Muslim Quarter.

Hebron


I'm told that normally there are checkpoints between Hebron and Jerusalem but we were not stopped. We did however go along the Separation (or Apartheid) wall in order to get to Hebron in the West Bank. Hebron is markedly impoverished compared to any Israeli areas, and this was apparent rather quickly on entry.

Hebron is seen as another particular hot-spot. The prophet Abraham bought land there and there is a long history of Jewish settlement for this reason.
Abraham's mosque and the tomb of Sarah is there, it is also known as the Cave of the Patriarchs and is the scene of the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre in 1994 when an American-Israel right-wing retard went in while people were praying and killed nearly 30 people. The bullet holes have been attempted to be filled in but they can still be seen. There is only one entrance so people were trapped in there. The lunatic was only stopped because survivors beat the life out of him. While officially Israel called him a degenerate murder, he was seen as a hero by many ultra-right wing settler groups.
(security gates near Abraham's mosque)

Because of the history surrounding Abraham, Hebron is an area of many Jewish setter groups who are motivated by religion. After the massacre, the mosque was divided in two. Access for Palestinians is heavily restricted and you must go through a checkpoint to access it. Jewish settlers had access to the tomb of Sarah from another entrance. As an international I had more rights than Palestinians in their own land and this was a very unnerving feeling throughout my time there.

To maintain the occupation and colonisation in Hebron, the ratio of settlers to soldiers is about 1:1.5. This is a costly arrangement which no doubt is made possible, in part at least, with American taxpayer money. Anywhere there are settlements, there are military outposts.


Hebron is divided into area H1 and H2.


Settlements cut deeper and deeper into Hebron going from the Cave of Patriarchs, up through the Old City and beyond. I spoke to many palestinian families who told me their stories. At one point, I went onto the roofs near the Old City in Hebron and was able to see even better the expansions of the settlers. Palestinians would be offered millions of dollars to sell their home but they resist. Families I spoke to who were given these offers and refused were met with settler violence and intimidation. Families had lost their parents or siblings from settler gunshots on the roofs. In some cases, settlers use a Palestinian proxy to pretend to buy from another Palestinian and then they hand the property over to settlers. By this and many other ways, including force, settlers were able to get more and more properties. They also tend to be higher above the Palestinian homes so they overlook Palestinian properties. There is even a barrier that has been put in place above the Palestinian areas because many of the settlers throw things onto the Palestinian street below. This can be piss, shit, spit, eggs, rubbish of all sorts etc.


A rule of thumb in Palestine is that if a house has a water tank on the roof then it is Palestinian, if it is not then it is Israeli. This is because there are huge water shortages for Palestinians. Only 17% of the water from the West Bank's aquifers is actually accessible for Palestinian use, the other 83% is used by settlements or pumped into Israel. Settlers are free to consume an average of 369 litres per capita per day whereas Palestinians consume an average of 73 litres. All Palestinian water infrastructure and farming is dependent on Israeli approval for maintenance work..which rarely happens. Therefore, Palestinians cannot depend on mains water, they have the black water tanks on the roof and collect rain water as well as pay extra for water deliveries. A means of harassment I saw was the shooting of water tanks on roofs.

Because of the encroachment of settler homes further into Hebron, the Old city which used to be a bustling market place has been shut down for years. Shops have been under forced closures or have slowly gone out of business due to restrictions. Shuhada street was the name of this main market place which had been shut down in response to Palestinian riots which followed the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre in 1994. The shops have not been allowed to reopen since.


Journey to, and life in, the refugee camp


On arrival to the camp, it was apparent that the entrance gates the camp were shut. This meant we had to arrive through a Palestinian village, get out, walk around the gate, cross a very nicely maintained Israeli road and then around another gate to get into the camp. Watching over the entrance was an Israeli watchtower and occasionally soldiers outside the camp en masse. It turns out these gates are closed throughout occupied Palestine whenever there is any kind of incident anywhere else. This collective punishment means that everyone is affected. Because there was a killing a few weeks before I arrived, the gate was closed for a month. The difference it made was huge. Its either a 25 minute journey by taxi on pot-holed Palestinian roads to go the long way around, or 10 minutes on the very nice Israeli roads which go directly to the city.

Once we entered the camp, I was faced by so many warm and welcoming people. Everyone we came across welcomed us and came to talk to us. Before long, we had huge crowds around each of us and out of nowhere we had teas and coffees on a tray appear in front of us. Before we knew it, we ended up at a Palestinian wedding and had to turn down all the other invitations so we could actually settle in.

In the camp I taught 2 classes in the morning - 1 boys class and 1 girls class - which i found quite challenging. Youth of all ages are so bored in the camps and there is little to do except play football so the classes with games with foreigners was a fun distraction for them.

Almost every night we had a dinner invitation booked and the stereotypes are correct when it comes to Palestinian hospitality. The meals we had were beautiful with all kinds of food. Mostly traditional Palestinian dishes that I could not get enough of.

In the afternoons, I had a university class 3 times a week. This was an opportunity to speak with students who had a stronger level in English so more complex and interesting conversations could be had. It was truly a cultural exchange and they asked me questions about my culture and I asked them about their culture. I often brought up controversial topics to spur debate and discussion about cultural difference. Many of them dreamed to go and work in Europe. They were engineers of all kinds and both women and men. They know how America and other parts of the world see Muslims but they still see the West in a positive light despite all the political betrayals over the years.

two days a week, I taught two classes at a community centre in a part of Hebron city that was right next to Jewish settlements. It was a very impoverished part of Hebron and the kids didnt even have a place for football to keep them occupied. For many of them they had to go through a checkpoint everytime they want to go onto their street. Every time they leave their house and every time they go home, their name/designated number needs to be checked on a list which also means they cant have guests in their own homes.. Meanwhile, Jewish men in cars just wave their hand to the soldiers as they pass through.


Trips elsewhere

At the weekends I had the opportunity to travel around throughout the West Bank. I went to Bethlehem, Ramallah, Nablus, Jenin and Jericho over the course of the month.

In Bethlehem, the separation wall was an eyesore as it is everywhere. I went to a refugee camp there and opposite it is an Israeli military area. Clashes are frequent in this area. There is a straight line between the Israeli watchtower and and entrance to the camp so sniper fire has taken many lives over the years. As we approached the tower we has snipers following us to have a better look.



On the wall..



Ramallah in part looks like a modern Western city. Many Palestinians who ended up in America or Europe earned a good living and eventually were able to get back to Palestine and invest their money there.

At the end of the teaching programme, I travelled alone around Palestine. I am interested in farming and so I visited interesting farms around the West Bank. In Jericho is a mushroom farm started by some palestinians and already they have taken a massive chunk out what was an Israeli monopoly on mushroom production. In Jenin, there was a farm doing aquaponics - growing fish with plants with recyclcing water. This is a particularly interesting technology for Palestine considering their lack of water for farming etc under occupation. Perhaps with my basic mushroom knowledge I can help some of these farms start up mushroom grows.

Leaving Palestine

Throughout my time there, the reminder of the occupation is constant, but for moments you can forget all that. People there do not bother with many dreams for the future but they live as best they can and love life in knowing how fleeting it can be first hand. The reminders can be small but they are everywhere. The boys are obsessed with m16 and AK47s and draw soldiers and death in classroom art. Every family had someone who had been in military detention etc. I could be having a meal with a family and we would have to pause our conversation while a military helicopter flew low over their house and then continue talking like that's normal. It could be at the entrance of the camp (if the Israelis are so kind as to open it) where men are quizzed by fearful 18 year old boys with guns from their military tower as to why they are standing on a road a long way away from the tower. When returning from our classes in the city, its normal to see a group of 30 soldiers in camo just walking aimlessly across Palestinian fields with a group of young guys near the entrance watching carefully.


These families have been terrorised by the Israeli military for generations. The soldiers are so skilled as taking people in the night from the homes that they can do so silently and take people while they sleep. When they do this, they make sure to make a noise as they leave to wake up and psychologically fuck with the household.

I kept remembering the words of the British Jew on the plane and how he dismissed the idea of Apartheid. What I saw is a defacto one state situation with military law and units "manage" and terrorise an entirely alienated civilian Palestinian population; while Israeli settlers, protected by the military, had the privelege of the occupier in their freedom.

My journey came to an end. I stayed in Jerusalem on the last day hoping for finally be able to visit Al Aqsa.. but the Old City was under complete lockdown with soldiers everywhere and preventing people going in or out of Al Aqsa or other religious areas. It turned out there was a huge Israeli parade so everything was under lockdown. I was actually trying to leave Damascus Gate to get some food but they wouldn't let anyone in or out.....except Jewish families of course...!

At Tel Aviv, after i had been warned that security on the way out can be intense, I was questioned before check out about where I was all that time. I told the truth and just said I was teaching in Hebron. Somehow that was enough to give me a number 6 rating. Israeli customs controls basically assign you a number between 1 and 6 which indicates your security threat level. Since I was given the highest, for some reason, I had to undergo extra questioning and security procedures.

I spoke to Palestinians from the camp on the phone before I left and came home to news reports about an Israeli military incursion into the camp. In some Israeli media it reported it as a riot within the camp that soldiers went in to quash.. but in fact Israeli soldiers in their hundreds invaded 4 or so areas in Hebron. They raided homes under the guise of searching for weapons and explosives. They turned Palestinian homes into sniper positions and when residents reacted, they were shot at with live ammunition, rubber bullets, and had sound and gas grenades thrown at them. A friend of mine told me that his 4 year old son was shot in the hand. One kid was killed.

Restriction of movement

Teenager killed during massive raid on refugee camp

“It’s not very quiet there” – the invasion of Al Fawwar refugee camp

Quote:

Later, we witnessed clashes in another part of the village between older Palestinian youth and men, and the Israeli Army and a special unit of Border Police forces, who were shooting off round after round of rubber coated steel bullets and live ammo. There were three International Committee of the Red Crescent (ICRC) ambulances standing by, and very unfortunately they were kept busy throughout the whole day. By the time the “operation” was over, forty Palestinians were wounded and one seventeen year old boy was dead- shot in the heart with a live bullet. Some people later told us that the soldiers were stopping and detaining these vehicles as they rushed to take the wounded away…






The Palestinian status-quo continues...
----
I recommend anyone and everyone to go to Palestine. I miss it already. If you go just to see for yourself then you will see the warm humans so dehumanised in the media.


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #23619717 - 09/06/16 08:51 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Wow, that's a really intense story!  Well worth the read for anyone who has the time.

Thanks for sharing your story and the pics Tip!!!  :toast:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23619811 - 09/06/16 09:13 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Thaanks buddddyy :toast:


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #23621171 - 09/07/16 08:32 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Excellent read :thumbup:


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Offlinetruthfull
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23621191 - 09/07/16 08:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The occupation of Palestine has no justifications today.

It's become an open air prison all over manufactured lines.

Why would a God designate holy land on moving plate tectonics that constantly are shifting?


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: truthfull]
    #23623857 - 09/07/16 09:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

What it means to go to Ben Gurion airport with an Arab friend

Quote:

Last month I took international friends to the airport. When internationals fly alone out of Israel, they get a “6” or a “5”. This number is a sticker you get on your passport and bags that helps the Israeli airport security evaluate your level of Zionism. “1” is awesome, “6” is you’re fucked. 1 is reserved for white Jewish Israelis, 2 is for white Jewish non-Israelis and friendly internationals, 3 is a suspicious Israeli or international, 4 is sometimes given to non-white Israelis, 5 is for Arab Israelis or questionable internationals, and 6 is for Palestinians, Muslims, and hostile internationals. Hostile is defined as not Zionist or suspected of questioning Zionism. Anything above a 3 means interrogation. Of course these are my definitions based on the people I’ve talked to who’ve gotten one of the six. I don’t know what the official language they use says.




--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote]
    #23631486 - 09/10/16 07:24 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

this is more detail on what happened at the camp I was in.

Sniper kills Muhammad Abu Hashhash in al-Fawwar RC though he posed no threat


--------------------
War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineMurzelpfrumpft
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote]
    #23637696 - 09/12/16 05:41 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Very interesting and valuable report, which gives of a somewhat incomplete picture.

I don't condone or doubt the mad current situation but I do understand how it came about.

The situation in the West Bank is a clear and brutal punishment for the last major aggressions towards Israel - most important is that it works, even when at a high price.

The Arabs tried to fuck with them again and again and now they're paying the bill for it, because they failed.

It went out of control after all of the surrounding arabian nations tried to eradicate newly formed Israel one time to many.
Eventually the jews noticed that the deeply rooted, century old muslim hate on jews was not to be met with appeasement.


I feel sorry that the defensive intentions of the beginning went over board and morphed into aggressive expansion, but seeing how humans are wired, this is not hard to understand, it was almost asked for.
The Intifadas were and still are what most Arabs think of as just.
The call for peace from the muslim side only came up when they were beaten into submission and it will subside when they ever get to call the upper hand theirs again.
And this is why Israel does what it does.


Edited by Murzelpfrumpft (09/12/16 06:02 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Murzelpfrumpft] * 1
    #23638172 - 09/12/16 10:25 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
The situation in the West Bank is a clear and brutal punishment for the last major aggressions towards Israel - most important is that it works, even when at a high price.

The call for peace from the muslim side only came up when they were beaten into submission and it will subside when they ever get to call the upper hand theirs again.



Palestinians have called for peace many times in the past, and Israel always took advantage of that situation by accelerating its expansion.  Palestinians have learned that peace doesn't get them anything from Israel.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineMurzelpfrumpft
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23639095 - 09/12/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Sure, I concur 100%.

My point is rather, that Israel has not been an aggressive invasor from the beginning. At least they would have hidden that intention pretty well, until given a cause for the merciless decimation of muslim settling.
Shit hit the fan in 1967, when it became obvious that the muslim world will never rest until Israel is off the map.
Can't blame them for harassing neighbors that have genocide of their people as a top priority. Kinda sick national agenda, if you ask me.

Sure, the ordinary german people of 1945 were not to blame for the crimes of the Third Reich. But they made it possible and thus they suffered in a very comparable way when the red army came and established the GDR.

Very comparable, despite of the fact that the intolerance of the muslim world is not due to an unique situation brought about by very specific circumstances and a powertripping dictator but rather seems to be the character of that region and/or religion.

I would for sure find less harsh words if I would have made OP's trip and seen it myself, I'd feel sorry. But from a distance, knowing what crazy shit the people of the neighboring states did and  still do, on a regular basis, just because of their religious craze, then I just can't feel sorry.

Everybody with just a decent amount of comprehension would just fuck off like the people of East Germany did.
But there's no where to run to, because they even hate each other.

The middle east really is a sad shithole.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Murzelpfrumpft]
    #23639121 - 09/12/16 04:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Man you buy all that pallywood bullshit don't you?


I've noticed pallywood people always cry about "imperialism"


Well what about Islamic imperialism? Hamas is the elected government of Palestine and they are funded by the ayatollah.
Can you be executed for apostasy in Israel? What about homosexuality?

Well you can in the majority of the Muslim world.


#istandwithisrael


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote]
    #23643633 - 09/14/16 01:33 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Did you get to fire any rockets at Israel?

And were the locals happy to hear about your efforts to open Europe up to Islamic invasion and conquest?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: viktor] * 1
    #23644365 - 09/14/16 11:11 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:doublefacepalm:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23644846 - 09/14/16 02:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Did you get to fire any rockets at Israel?

And were the locals happy to hear about your efforts to open Europe up to Islamic invasion and conquest?





No but he did get to tour a jihadist camp built under a daycare on bring your kid to work day.

http://aquadoc.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/10/childmartyr.jpg



im amazed they let you back in Israel. I wonder what happens if you go to Palestine and talk about how you support Israel? In Israel you just get questioned, in Palestine you die!


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Offlineviktor
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23646349 - 09/15/16 01:12 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
:doublefacepalm:




Yes, silly me - of course the Palestinians were happy to hear about how Tipote was fighting for the rights of their fellow Muslims to invade Europe.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Murzelpfrumpft] * 1
    #23650970 - 09/16/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
Very interesting and valuable report, which gives of a somewhat incomplete picture.




Thanks, what do you mean by incomplete? I was writing about my experience.

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
The situation in the West Bank is a clear and brutal punishment for the last major aggressions towards Israel - most important is that it works, even when at a high price.

The Arabs tried to fuck with them again and again and now they're paying the bill for it, because they failed.




collective punishment is against international law. punishing a civilian population for what exactly? Yes, it might work, so terrorising people is ok by some but not by others?

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
It went out of control after all of the surrounding arabian nations tried to eradicate newly formed Israel one time to many.




Not sure what point youre making here. Do you think that the surrounding nations were acting on behalf of palestinians? or in their own self interest?

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
Eventually the jews noticed that the deeply rooted, century old muslim hate on jews was not to be met with appeasement.




This is a myth, there was largely peaceful coexistance going back centuries. In the beginning of Jewish immigration to Palestine, many were welcomed..until this got to much and it went from hospitality to colonisation and violence on both sides split communities apart. But regarding the Arab Jews who had always lived there, and who spoke Arabic as their first language, there was much social cohesion between Muslim and Jew.

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
I feel sorry that the defensive intentions of the beginning went over board and morphed into aggressive expansion, but seeing how humans are wired, this is not hard to understand, it was almost asked for.




asked for what exactly?

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
The Intifadas were and still are what most Arabs think of as just.



and surely you would agree that an uprising against occupation and colonisation is valid and worthy of support? The US did this after all. And it is a right under international law - to resist.

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
The call for peace from the muslim side only came up when they were beaten into submission and it will subside when they ever get to call the upper hand theirs again.
And this is why Israel does what it does.





It is sad that you have such a negative view of the human spirit, that it can just be crushed and will go away. Do you see the resistance stopping? The tide slowly is turning against Israel. Even in the US, dissent is entering the mainstream concerning the impunity Israel acts with.

The call for peace has been consistent throughout the decades. Arafat mysteriously died while Hamas, with Israeli support and funding, dominated a narrative around war.. but even they have consistently followed ceasefire agreements and even accept a long term truce of 10 years based on a return to 1967 borders.

Maybe you can ask me questions of my experience to open up the discussion? Have you visited the West Bank and have things to share? I would be interested to hear more.

Palestinians I spoke to said they are good to even settler Israelis if they come in peace. Support for peace is very widespread.
While many will say "the jews hate us", it is not the occupied palestinians who are stealing land and occupying another people.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Murzelpfrumpft]
    #23650999 - 09/16/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
My point is rather, that Israel has not been an aggressive invasor from the beginning. At least they would have hidden that intention pretty well, until given a cause for the merciless decimation of muslim settling.




Do you not think the 700,000-odd people fleeing their homes was not an aggression? Yes some people left voluntarily with the idea it would be temporary but history shows this was the exception, not the norm.

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
Shit hit the fan in 1967, when it became obvious that the muslim world will never rest until Israel is off the map.




but its ok that Israel will never rest until it has all of Palestine?

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
Can't blame them for harassing neighbors that have genocide of their people as a top priority. Kinda sick national agenda, if you ask me.



This statement could also refer to arab responses to ethnic cleansing as an Israeli national agenda. I'm guessing you didn't mean it like that but also that yo might not be able to see it mean the other way of what you mean...


Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
Sure, the ordinary german people of 1945 were not to blame for the crimes of the Third Reich. But they made it possible and thus they suffered in a very comparable way when the red army came and established the GDR.




so collective punishment is ok in your view?

Very comparable, despite of the fact that the intolerance of the muslim world is not due to an unique situation brought about by very specific circumstances and a powertripping dictator but rather seems to be the character of that region and/or religion.




No, its from a very specific situation. It is a direct response to a political situation - occupation, colonisation and dehumanisation.
Yes people can add their own religious justifications, this has always been the case for any religion in any time in the history of the world.
Islam actually says that Jews, Christians and Muslims follow the same faith for the most part. What the "Jewish" State does is against even Jewish values and is a betrayal of Jewish history. 

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
I would for sure find less harsh words if I would have made OP's trip and seen it myself, I'd feel sorry. But from a distance, knowing what crazy shit the people of the neighboring states did and  still do, on a regular basis, just because of their religious craze, then I just can't feel sorry.




To belittle the cause for resistance against occupation to "religious craze" is nonsense. What if the American revolution was reduced to such ridiculous and simplistic terms?

OH and again, are the neighbouring states and the palestinians one body? No. Your generalisations are silly.

I highly recommend you go to the West Bank, its very easy and a very pleasant experience. Don't go imposing your perspectives, ask questions and listen and see for yourself with your eyes wide open.

Quote:

Murzelpfrumpft said:
Everybody with just a decent amount of comprehension would just fuck off like the people of East Germany did.
But there's no where to run to, because they even hate each other.




What do you mean?

Quote:

The middle east really is a sad shithole.




I wonder what our countries have done to contribute to such a situation..


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: elax420]
    #23651025 - 09/16/16 05:22 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Well what about Islamic imperialism? Hamas is the elected government of Palestine and they are funded by the ayatollah.
Can you be executed for apostasy in Israel? What about homosexuality?

Well you can in the majority of the Muslim world.


#istandwithisrael




Yes, there are massive prejudices based on sexuality, whats that got to do with occupation? I personally hated the views about homosexuality that I came across, I asked some of my university classes about it. But what struck me was that I still hear Western people talk like that and frankly, its not disimilar to the way wider society talked only a few decades ago in the West. Yes, people weren't executed in the the UK for example, but being gay was illegal until quite recently.

Also don't think that Jewish shit doesn't stink. There are vile views based on ultra-conservative interpretations of religious bullshit within Judaism too.

Do you struggle to #standwithisrael when Israeli society is actually very divided. Perhaps it seems like a united picture from the outside in the filtered US media, but even the Israeli media talk openly about these huge divisions even within Jewish Israeli society. So which aspect do you #standwith?


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: elax420] * 1
    #23651054 - 09/16/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Did you get to fire any rockets at Israel?

And were the locals happy to hear about your efforts to open Europe up to Islamic invasion and conquest?





No but he did get to tour a jihadist camp built under a daycare on bring your kid to work day.




:smbfacepalm:

really?

Quote:

im amazed they let you back in Israel. I wonder what happens if you go to Palestine and talk about how you support Israel? In Israel you just get questioned, in Palestine you die!




amazed they let me back into Israel? Why?

No, in Palestine you wouldnt be killed for just saying you support Israel. :facepalm:

What does supporting Israel even mean? Is supporting fascist militarism and settler colonialism is supporting Israel? I would say I support Israel more than you because I think the current path Israel takes actually has sowed the seeds of its own destruction. I think both peoples can live in peace together but the current policy will not lead to that. A policy of continued abuses, taking land, water etc with impunity does not fuel peace...! Israelis are increasingly understanding this. Many generals and intelligence chiefs in the Shin Bet say this themselves...

Check out the film "the gatekeepers" for testimonies from the Shin Bet.

and here is a bit of reading..

It’s war between Netanyahu and the generals (and the PM may just have lost the corporal)

Quote:

No matter the verdict this trial will soon become a rallying cry for Generals Ehud Barak, Moshe Ya’alon, Yair Golan, and others who see Israel under Netanyahu heading toward the abyss. You can’t claim to be part of the Western world and have an army that acts like a tribal militia. Recall how Golan ended his Holocaust speech that announced the crisis last May:

   
Quote:

[We must] ….ask ourselves what is the purpose of our return to our land; What we should sanctify and what not; What is right to praise what is not; And most importantly – how we should fulfill our role as a light unto the nations and as a model-society. Only this kind of memory has the power to serve as a living, breathing monument for our people, a worthy monument, a monument of truth.







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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #23651232 - 09/16/16 06:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

REALLY good points Tip!  :thumbup:

I have to say I'm surprised by the level of ignorance about Palestine.  Thanks for shedding some light on this based on real world personal experience.  :mushroom2:


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23652169 - 09/17/16 04:47 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks mate, I appreciate that

:fonz:

I think the ignorance in the US comes largely from the US media, which is even more restricted in some regards than the Israeli. It reduces the narrative to a false binary of either being blindly for Israel in giving it carte blanche for anything they like, or being against Israel meaning destruction and genocide of Jews.

lol at viktor thinking rockets come from the west bank. All international media is more spun than the israeli media. The expression "rockets raining down on Isaeli towns" etc is so often repeated all over the world then it makes it seems that Israel is attacked on all sides, when the opposite is true. In fact its interesting when the Israeli state comes out with these criticisms about Palestinians because its more true of Israelis. eg. Netanyahu saying that dismantling settlements is ethnic cleansing against Israel. Chutspah to the max!!!!:lol:


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote]
    #23715556 - 10/07/16 08:20 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

elax...

Quote:

Tipote said:
Do you struggle to #standwithisrael when Israeli society is actually very divided. Perhaps it seems like a united picture from the outside in the filtered US media, but even the Israeli media talk openly about these huge divisions even within Jewish Israeli society. So which aspect do you #standwith?




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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #24883872 - 01/01/18 08:19 PM (6 years, 29 days ago)

I already knew it was bad, reading about it in detail makes me intensely angry. Thanks for sharing Tipote.


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: viktor] * 1
    #24884791 - 01/02/18 10:51 AM (6 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Did you get to fire any rockets at Israel?

And were the locals happy to hear about your efforts to open Europe up to Islamic invasion and conquest?





i thought you hated jews because of circumsition? you are very, very wierd


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 2
    #24884799 - 01/02/18 11:00 AM (6 years, 28 days ago)

Thanks a lot for the post Tip, really interresting. I have never really looked deep into this issue, I knew it was bad but i didnt really have any idea what happes on a day to day basis. Fucked up Shit


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: MushiesAreVegan] * 1
    #24886066 - 01/02/18 09:01 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

Thanks guys I really appreciate that.
Coming from bodhi that means a lot to me but I fear his enthusiasm comes from anti-Semitism when it should come from anti Zionism, anti-impérialism etc

The day to day occupation is treated like it doesn't exist. Even many israelis say it doesn't exist, they flip it around and say the Palestinians occupy them. And then when Palestinians stand up for their rights they are called an obstacle to peace who should just shut up and submit fully to domination.

The occupier/occupied power relationship is never touched upon.. especially by the US media. It's always like the trumpian "violence of both sides" pseudo symmetry.

Israeli projection is strong.
Israel says Palestinians want to wipe them off the map when that is exactly what is happening to Palestine.
Israel says Palestinians don't want peace when all the evidence is to the contrary.
I spoke to an Israeli kid yesterday on twitter and he believed that the occupation was because of terror, not the other way around. Maybe day is night and white is black in his mind too.

It's sad also because the many Israelis that support the dismantling of this brutal occupation and colonisation are treated and silenced as traitors. Interesting to hear from the so called democracy of the middle East.

I'll have to reread my OP to remember what I said exactly but if you have any questions I'll do my best to answer.


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: MushiesAreVegan]
    #24886088 - 01/02/18 09:11 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

MushiesAreVegan said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Did you get to fire any rockets at Israel?

And were the locals happy to hear about your efforts to open Europe up to Islamic invasion and conquest?





i thought you hated jews because of circumsition? you are very, very wierd




Viktor might as well put his circumcision rants in his signature. The cognitive dissonance of hating Jews but loving Jewish fascists is interesting. They like Israel because they hate Muslims. If Netanyahu cared about anti-Semitism then he would be more vocal and concerned about some forces empowering trump. Shared dehumanisation of Muslims (and others)and love of authoritarianism binds the two.

Also worth mentioning the irony of all the blind Christian support for Israel when Israel is brutal to Christian palestinians.

World is fukt up


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote]
    #24886105 - 01/02/18 09:20 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

You confuse semitism for being a race when its really religious retardation. Theyre zealots, and thats what I dislike.


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote]
    #24886168 - 01/02/18 09:47 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

MushiesAreVegan said:
Quote:

viktor said:
Did you get to fire any rockets at Israel?

And were the locals happy to hear about your efforts to open Europe up to Islamic invasion and conquest?





i thought you hated jews because of circumsition? you are very, very wierd




Viktor might as well put his circumcision rants in his signature. The cognitive dissonance of hating Jews but loving Jewish fascists is interesting. They like Israel because they hate Muslims. If Netanyahu cared about anti-Semitism then he would be more vocal and concerned about some forces empowering trump. Shared dehumanisation of Muslims (and others)and love of authoritarianism binds the two.

Also worth mentioning the irony of all the blind Christian support for Israel when Israel is brutal to Christian palestinians.

World is fukt up




Find a post of mine where I express love for Israel, or admit you're a liar.


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: viktor]
    #24886201 - 01/02/18 10:03 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

I wasn't referring to you individually. I was speaking generally of racists and fascists admiring Israeli fascism. I don't think I said Viktor loves israel.

And I don't really mean that Nazis actually love Israel, more that they ally with them because of shared interests and admiration of their unapologetic brutality against otherised peoples. Once those interests are over then the focus will be back on Jews AND Muslims.


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #24886231 - 01/02/18 10:22 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

The only people on Earth worse than Israelis are their neighbours. I hope both sides mutually annihilate each other.


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: viktor]
    #24886241 - 01/02/18 10:29 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

Anywhere these stupid fucking supremacist religions meet themselves or others theres conflict (Judaism and Islam). If the world could rid itself of them humanity would be at peace for a very long period of time.


Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (01/02/18 10:35 PM)


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: viktor]
    #24886246 - 01/02/18 10:31 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
The only people on Earth worse than Israelis are their neighbours. I hope both sides mutually annihilate each other.



Thank you for supporting my argument


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 1
    #24886253 - 01/02/18 10:37 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Anywhere these stupid fucking religions meet themselves or others theres conflict (Judaism and Islam). If the world could rid itself of them humanity would be at peace for a very long period of time.




This is simplistic at best. You've swallowed the "this conflict has gone on for millennia" myth.

How come, before Israel, Jerusalem has been shared for so long?

Politics, not religious difference, accounts for the vast majority of conflict.

Your "genocide will bring peace" argument is telling. Also always surprising considering you're native American...


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Tipote]
    #24886290 - 01/02/18 10:48 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

Israel and middle eastern countries are all theocratic governments. You cant argue against it being purely political when the government itself is an extension of the religious affiliations of its citizens.


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #24886311 - 01/02/18 10:57 PM (6 years, 28 days ago)

All Abrahamic religions are murderous death cults. They should be exterminated like the British dealt to the Thuggee cult in India.


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #24886450 - 01/03/18 12:46 AM (6 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Israel and middle eastern countries are all theocratic governments. You cant argue against it being purely political when the government itself is an extension of the religious affiliations of its citizens.





rojava in kurdish syria isnt theocratic, nor is it authoritarian. Men and women are equal (probably more equal than in the west), decisions are made in a direct democratic manner by councils, and there is (almost) no hierarchical organisation. Woman and men share the military duty to fight daesh and turkish fascism.

Police are abolished as an institution, as every citizen gets poilce training during education (wich is also nonhierarchical) and they take turns guarding their communities.

Its a multiethnic and religious place, but it seems like they dont go full theocratic. Why that? because they dont use religion as a diversion like the ruling classes elsewhere


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: MushiesAreVegan]
    #24886451 - 01/03/18 12:48 AM (6 years, 27 days ago)

There is no such thing as Kurdish Syria, sorry to break it to you.


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 1
    #24887072 - 01/03/18 10:04 AM (6 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
There is no such thing as Kurdish Syria, sorry to break it to you.





https://syriancivilwarmap.com/

hm i wonder what the yellow occupied zones are? defenitely not held by a kurdish milita (nowadays with lots of arabs and other ethnicities aswell)

nothing to see here


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: viktor]
    #24887179 - 01/03/18 10:50 AM (6 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Did you get to fire any rockets at Israel?

And were the locals happy to hear about your efforts to open Europe up to Islamic invasion and conquest?




have you stopped blowing fat, old retirees with cheesy dicks to earn money for fast food, yet?


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Re: Journey to the West Bank [Re: relic]
    #24888114 - 01/03/18 06:35 PM (6 years, 27 days ago)

I think you've confused me with koods bro.


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