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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23643799 - 09/14/16 04:29 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

blingbling said:
And you say there are circuits in the brain devoted to language, yes, but are they special?

Yes, there are a number of areas in the brain that are specialised to deal with language. In fact, they are so specialised that if someone receives brain damage to a particular area of the brain they may be left with a specialised disability like for example word salad (not the official name), which is a condition where they understand what some one says to them but when they speak the words in their sentence are not in order. So instead of saying "the cat is in the hat" they might say "hat cat the in the."

I once met someone with this condition. I spoke with her for about 15 minutes and in all that time i understood one sentence about where she went on holiday which made her very pleased.




I do not doubt that we can identify parts of the brain associated with language processing.  You have to realize that that is a very far cry from understanding what is going on.  You haven't really said anything.




Exactly what kind of evidence do you require to get a sense of what is going on? The point I was trying to make is that language is built up in the brain by small pieces of consciousness and that we know this because we can see what happens when one piece fails.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Offlinenuentoter
conduit
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Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 2,721
Last seen: 7 years, 21 days
Re: Evolution [Re: blingbling]
    #23643861 - 09/14/16 05:33 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I think what he might be getting at, or at least my questioning, is not that that exists, but more of what sets us apart, why did we decide this was important enough on a large biological scale across multiple populations across cultures that were all separate. How did this develop? Biological predisposition? Cultural push? A combination of so many things may never really know?

Saying we have a spleen does not explain it's why or how. The spleen is an easier example than something as elusive as language.


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The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: Evolution [Re: nuentoter]
    #23644145 - 09/14/16 09:12 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nuentoter said:
I think what he might be getting at, or at least my questioning, is not that that exists, but more of what sets us apart, why did we decide this was important enough on a large biological scale across multiple populations across cultures that were all separate. How did this develop? Biological predisposition? Cultural push? A combination of so many things may never really know?

Saying we have a spleen does not explain it's why or how. The spleen is an easier example than something as elusive as language.




That's just it. :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlineklhouse
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Registered: 12/12/15
Posts: 671
Loc: SE Virginia
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Evolution [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23644181 - 09/14/16 09:32 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I am in agreement with most of the posts here: I believe, but I do see flaws.

One thing that helped me understand this is that humans can't really understand the concept of huge numbers. For example, in a billion years, a snail could crawl around the equator ten million times. Google it. It is on many sites and some give the math. They say the earth is 4.5 billion years old... Imagine how much could happen while waiting for a snail to crawl around the earth 45 million times...


--------------------
Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. :wink:


Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
Re: Evolution [Re: klhouse]
    #23644210 - 09/14/16 09:47 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

one could say humans are not the inventors of language
why?
well what about DNA?

like wise the nervous system handles multiple sensory data streams,
and processes all this data, mostly without confusion.

And both pre-verbal human infants and animals dream. And dreams involve simulations of the past, future, and use symbols, and are unconscious.

So the questions arise, what are the differences between thought, language, data processing, and the physical laws of the universe which constrain these processes.


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Evolution [Re: nuentoter]
    #23644624 - 09/14/16 01:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

all language is a structure. no language has ever just been "made" or just "happened", evolution or no. it is all an early construction job, for humanity. only this construction was with sounds to communicate. it is no different than a wolf or howl...only it's been constructed, more so, than say an owls hoot. nothing really special about it, beyond the fact that we can endeavor to make more structural sense out of your communicative skills.


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Offlinenuentoter
conduit
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Registered: 09/17/08
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Re: Evolution [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23645607 - 09/14/16 07:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
all language is a structure. no language has ever just been "made" or just "happened", evolution or no. it is all an early construction job, for humanity. only this construction was with sounds to communicate. it is no different than a wolf or howl...only it's been constructed, more so, than say an owls hoot. nothing really special about it, beyond the fact that we can endeavor to make more structural sense out of your communicative skills.




they only point I would disagree with is the "nothing special" part. Especially from someone who enjoys reading, I would be hard pressed to find another animal that uses language for simply aesthetic reasons. Poetry, Singing, Literature. All special in my book.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Evolution [Re: nuentoter]
    #23645630 - 09/14/16 07:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

i don't think most animals have brains large enough to comprehend much aesthetics in their environment, let alone emotions for said environment. i'm sure the preservation of their children is as important to them as procreation itself, but it's hardwired.

they communicate though, just the same, with each other, like we do, only in less complex terms. considering that, i think "nothing special" is quite fitting. consider also where this discussion kinda engendered itself, and kinda has gotten to...in my opinion, it's not that special, but also very unique of an indicator of complex system, ie, the language acquisition in humans -- but it's very akin to how animals communicate, only we can use logic and reason to map out more complex forms of communication, like anything else we can do better because of said rational mind.

so by "not special" i just mean the actual communication part...not the acquisition and the constructive parts. that's what more what i meant. :smile:


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Offlineblingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Evolution [Re: nuentoter]
    #23646506 - 09/15/16 03:47 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nuentoter said:
I think what he might be getting at, or at least my questioning, is not that that exists, but more of what sets us apart, why did we decide this was important enough on a large biological scale across multiple populations across cultures that were all separate. How did this develop? Biological predisposition? Cultural push? A combination of so many things may never really know?

Saying we have a spleen does not explain it's why or how. The spleen is an easier example than something as elusive as language.




OK, well my best guess is that language evolved the same way everything else evolved. Namely, in very small pieces, each piece being an adaptive modulation over the standard anatomy of the species. Given enough time and selection pressures we could go from primitive grunts and gestures to me talking to you through our computers.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,812
Re: Evolution [Re: blingbling] * 1
    #23646677 - 09/15/16 06:39 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blingbling said:
Quote:

nuentoter said:
I think what he might be getting at, or at least my questioning, is not that that exists, but more of what sets us apart, why did we decide this was important enough on a large biological scale across multiple populations across cultures that were all separate. How did this develop? Biological predisposition? Cultural push? A combination of so many things may never really know?

Saying we have a spleen does not explain it's why or how. The spleen is an easier example than something as elusive as language.




OK, well my best guess is that language evolved the same way everything else evolved. Namely, in very small pieces, each piece being an adaptive modulation over the standard anatomy of the species. Given enough time and selection pressures we could go from primitive grunts and gestures to me talking to you through our computers.




Well described :thumbsup:
I'd say language developed from the ancestral body language and gesturing used in hunting.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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InvisiblehTx
(:
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Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
Re: Evolution [Re: sudly]
    #23649348 - 09/16/16 01:31 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

http://phys.org/news/2015-12-evolution-intelligent-thought.html

"this research shows that it is possible for evolution to exhibit some of the same intelligent behaviours as learning systems (including neural networks)."


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 1 month
Re: Evolution [Re: hTx]
    #23649355 - 09/16/16 01:33 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

before we had the concept of architecture, where did the architecture of the mind endeavor to?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Evolution [Re: hTx]
    #23649554 - 09/16/16 04:48 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
http://phys.org/news/2015-12-evolution-intelligent-thought.html

"this research shows that it is possible for evolution to exhibit some of the same intelligent behaviours as learning systems (including neural networks)."



this research and the facility from which it harks  is not scientific in the least.
(from an intellectual institute doing research by asking questions in flowery language - those that make the effort to understand the questions think they have already done enough work - so that's the research - a bunch of "what if" statements, no methods, and no results.)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineclock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them
I'm a teapot

Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Evolution [Re: hTx]
    #23649802 - 09/16/16 07:56 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

By unifying the theory of evolution (which shows how random variation and selection is sufficient to provide incremental adaptation) with learning theories (which show how incremental adaptation is sufficient for a system to exhibit intelligent behaviour),




I'll read the journal article later, but from the first part of the sentence you quoted, it seems they are just playing semantics. Random variation and selection provide incremental adaptation and incremental adaptation shows intelligent behavior. They are just defining intelligent behavior in a way that will include evolution.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Evolution [Re: clock_of_omens] * 1
    #23650089 - 09/16/16 10:19 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

it's lazy thinking with evil results,
I hate research institutes that call anything they do research (because it's in the description of the institute).

Going on a trip to Singapore to attend a wedding can be called a research expense if the "researcher" is working on a "research" paper summarizing their ideas on Intelligence among the planets based upon historical analysis of alchemists, and the father of the bride knows astrology.

research for his book, validly included as a cost as regards annotated tax receipts, and therefore seriously to be considered as "peer reviewed science at the shroomery"


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineclock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them
I'm a teapot

Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Evolution [Re: hTx]
    #23650808 - 09/16/16 03:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Really what they are saying in the article is that models used in learning theory can be usefully transferred to evolutionary theory. This does not imply that evolution is itself somehow learning. That doesn't even make philosophical sense. In order for learning to happen, there has to be something there doing the learning. What is doing the learning in evolution?

One example they give is an analogy between evolvability in evolution and generalization in learning models. The specific type of learning model they talk about is built using a training set. The model is then subjected to a test set which has features that were not present in the training set, and the model is able to generalize to this new test set. They say that the training set is analogous to a past selective environment and the test set is analogous to a new selective environment. So a population is subjected to a 'training set' and random variation in the genome is selected for and allele frequencies change. The alleles that conferred advantage in the 'training set' are more frequent in the population, so of course when the population is subjected to a 'test set' with some similar selective pressures, the population will be able to adapt more quickly. This is because the alleles that will confer some advantage are still more prevalent in the population, not because the population somehow literally evolutionarily 'learned' from the 'training set' and is generalizing to the 'test set'. That is just taking a useful analogy literally.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Evolution [Re: clock_of_omens]
    #23650818 - 09/16/16 03:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

so, having followed the breadcrumbs, do you see research or wank?


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineclock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them
I'm a teapot

Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23650855 - 09/16/16 04:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I only followed a few crumbs. The article phys org wrote about was just an opinion piece letter to a journal. They quote a bunch of other studies where people apparently applied learning theory models to problems in evolutionary theory, but I didn't go into any of them. Just based on what they say in the opinion piece, there seem to be useful analogies between learning theory models and evolutionary theory that could lead to legitimate research, but the article itself isn't a research article. However, any claims that evolution itself literally learns or is intelligent are wank as far as I'm concerned. They don't exactly flat out state that in the opinion piece, but they start out with a paragraph basically about how analogies can sometimes be more than just analogies, and they make statements that could be interpreted as saying evolution literally learns. So the article itself I would say is semi-wank.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
Re: Evolution [Re: clock_of_omens]
    #23650883 - 09/16/16 04:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

thanks for the in depth smell test.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineclock_of_omens
razzle them dazzle them
I'm a teapot

Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 4,097
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Evolution [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23650927 - 09/16/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

:boobsmell:


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