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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Is civilization really advanced? 2
#23608057 - 09/03/16 01:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Human civilization at this point is a cluster-fuck. Who cares how advanced it is? The question is: What is the nature and quality of people's existential lives? Are people getting happier over time? Looking around at the global situation, it would seem that quality of life is being negatively impacted for most as the population spirals.
So the question is: How advanced are we really as a species? We have these fabulous technologies, but as I mention quality of life has grown poorer per capita, it would certainly seem, for the vast majority. In fact, most people in the third world do not even have access to most of these technologies, and we're talking billions of people here. Have we taken one step forward and two steps back?
I think this quote is apropos:
Quote:
"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans in the finite space of a planetary ecosystem as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who do survive." --Frank Herbert
What are your thoughts?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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falcon



Registered: 04/01/02
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I think of it as a continuum that offers different advantages and different restraints along the line.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,564
Loc: Utah
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I come into contact with a lot of different people in my job. As a whole, most of the people I've run into are happy, sane, and rational most of the time. There are only a tiny handful that I can list on one hand that I ever thought might be legitimately bad people/irrational/violent/etc.
People in the third world have it worse, no doubt. There is a huge amount of pain and suffering in Africa, South America, the middle east, and parts of Asia. On the other hand, many of these countries have a middle class that is at least struggling to be happy if not actually succeeding.
Then there's the question of what makes people happy. I knew a guy once who loved work more than anyone I have ever seen love work. To him, the perfect life would involve nothing but work. I imagine a guy like him would do extremely well for himself even in a third world country. The dude worked factories and assembly lines and backroom stocking and janitorial work, and he loved every minute of it and was always asking for more. He had multiple jobs not because he needed the money but because he wanted to spend as much of his time working as possible. That kind of guy will be happy anywhere.
The prospects for humanity in the long run are also good. We're getting less violent, lower violent crime rates, having fewer wars, and we've finally got a successful commercial space industry driving down the cost of spaceflight. Prohibition is slowly slowly coming to an end, both legit police abuse and people abusing/lying about the police is coming to light and being addressed now more than ever. More people live in functional democracies today than at any other time. Third world countries are slowly, slowly developing into something not as shitty with larger middle classes and better political systems.
If you look at the trajectory as a whole, I think we're on a damn good path.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Human civilization at this point is a cluster-fuck. Who cares how advanced it is? The question is: What is the nature and quality of people's existential lives? Are people getting happier over time? Looking around at the global situation, it would seem that quality of life is being negatively impacted for most as the population spirals.
So the question is: How advanced are we really as a species? We have these fabulous technologies, but as I mention quality of life has grown poorer per capita, it would certainly seem, for the vast majority. In fact, most people in the third world do not even have access to most of these technologies, and we're talking billions of people here. Have we taken one step forward and two steps back?
I think this quote is apropos:
Quote:
"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans in the finite space of a planetary ecosystem as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who do survive." --Frank Herbert
What are your thoughts?
I cannot rescue you from your conclusions.
never read the book but the title comes to mind:
"I never promised you a rose garden"
I grew up on distopian early science fiction
Brave new world
1984
maybe not Sf
Darkness at noon
The stranger
on the beach ... SF ... maybe
so I am not surprised
of course my dad thought
sf wasn't real "literature"
unfortunately i suspect time will show differently ...
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog] 1
#23609061 - 09/03/16 07:22 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your first paragraph DQ. That nails it for me.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23609307 - 09/03/16 08:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: Your first paragraph DQ. That nails it for me.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Consciousness expansion is the answer.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Last seen: 1 hour, 52 minutes
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: What are your thoughts?
I think civilization right now is pretty good if you're built for it. Same as it ever was.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
#23609465 - 09/03/16 09:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: What are your thoughts?
I think civilization right now is pretty good if you're built for it. Same as it ever was.
You don't think a lot of people are left out? Domestically? Internationally?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Last seen: 1 hour, 52 minutes
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i think lots of people have always been left out and only a handful can be said to be truly built for a society. because a society will award those who are built for it and leave everyone else picking up what is left.
one could say we are trending towards a global society because of our interconnected commerce and in that sense the scale changes but not the same basic principle IMO
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
#23609488 - 09/03/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society. --Jiddu Krishnamurti
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Kickle
Wanderer


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Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 1 hour, 52 minutes
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23609505 - 09/03/16 09:36 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Show me a healthy society 
Relative health doesn't count IMO because being the least sick doesn't mean you aren't sick
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
#23609510 - 09/03/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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One of the few indigenous tribes that still exists in the world. I (and DQ is an expert I believe) have researched them extensively, and they look pretty damn healthy to me, as far as the human condition goes.
Ever seen how much they talk, laugh, joke and smile when filmed? I work in the heart of one of the biggest cities in the world and it's the antithesis.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23609531 - 09/03/16 09:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I studied indigenous tribes for a while too and found much to admire. Only saw one that had me convinced they were living it right the Pirahã. That is until they too were wooed by fancy goods. Then I knew it wasn't as good as it sounded. Otherwise they wouldn't be suckered in like the rest of us. They were looking for reprieve too. And last I heard it's going to shit for 'em.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
#23609621 - 09/03/16 10:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I respect your point, Kickle, and you're right -- aboriginal peoples are often seduced by the ways of civilization. The !Kung are one example of hangers-on, though. It's amusing to see a bushman out there with his spear and paraphernalia wearing a Michael Jordan Nike tee-shirt. Some become spoiled and others don't. But the threat of obliteration of this type of society by a sprawling global society is very real.
All I can say is, in my day-to-day life all I see is malfunction everywhere. I think our system works pitifully poorly at taking care of people, and the only ones who are really free to do what they wish with impunity are the upper .1%, for whom the system has become uncannily tailored. I think things are working badly on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.
But I appreciate your perspective, and am heartened to know that it seems you've found a niche for yourself.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I think our system works pitifully poorly at taking care of people
This is my real gripe. We live in a system where profits are #1, and the mental health of the populous are #163 or something.
Still, I've come to expect little other than paradox from this crazy world, and paradox it most certainly is.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23609670 - 09/03/16 10:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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True.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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zzripz
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Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
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Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: nooneman]
#23610105 - 09/04/16 02:59 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The prospects for humanity in the long run are also good. We're getting less violent, lower violent crime rates, having fewer wars,
and you get this information from where?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: nooneman]
#23610313 - 09/04/16 06:38 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Human civilization at this point is a cluster-fuck. Who cares how advanced it is? The question is: What is the nature and quality of people's existential lives?...
Quote:
nooneman said: I come into contact with a lot of different people in my job. As a whole, most of the people I've run into are happy, sane, and rational most of the time. There are only a tiny handful that I can list on one hand that I ever thought might be legitimately bad people/irrational/violent/etc.
People in the third world have it worse, no doubt. There is a huge amount of pain and suffering in Africa, South America, the middle east, and parts of Asia. On the other hand, many of these countries have a middle class that is at least struggling to be happy if not actually succeeding.
Then there's the question of what makes people happy. I knew a guy once who loved work more than anyone I have ever seen love work. To him, the perfect life would involve nothing but work. I imagine a guy like him would do extremely well for himself even in a third world country. The dude worked factories and assembly lines and backroom stocking and janitorial work, and he loved every minute of it and was always asking for more. He had multiple jobs not because he needed the money but because he wanted to spend as much of his time working as possible. That kind of guy will be happy anywhere.
The prospects for humanity in the long run are also good. We're getting less violent, lower violent crime rates, having fewer wars, and we've finally got a successful commercial space industry driving down the cost of spaceflight. Prohibition is slowly slowly coming to an end, both legit police abuse and people abusing/lying about the police is coming to light and being addressed now more than ever. More people live in functional democracies today than at any other time. Third world countries are slowly, slowly developing into something not as shitty with larger middle classes and better political systems.
If you look at the trajectory as a whole, I think we're on a damn good path.
I might add that the quality of each person's existential lives is mostly dependent upon their attitude which is not in scope of what society can control.
we have the freedom to express the attitude we want as well as the freedom to allow our attitude to be the messy fermented bag of psychodramatic knee jerk reactions that is the norm. (for instance some poor people are delightful and many rich people are completely depressed and hopeless)
it's one thing to allow societal control into the bedroom (i.e. what sex is OK), but inside our heads every waking moment of our day, not so easy.
Most people have no idea what is in their head, so society has no chance at all in regulating it.
then again, this is subject to change after smartphones and self driving flying cars - why not have brainwave detection and automatic adjustment (I shudder to imagine)
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,856
Last seen: 1 hour, 52 minutes
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I respect your point, Kickle, and you're right -- aboriginal peoples are often seduced by the ways of civilization. The !Kung are one example of hangers-on, though. It's amusing to see a bushman out there with his spear and paraphernalia wearing a Michael Jordan Nike tee-shirt. Some become spoiled and others don't. But the threat of obliteration of this type of society by a sprawling global society is very real.
All I can say is, in my day-to-day life all I see is malfunction everywhere. I think our system works pitifully poorly at taking care of people, and the only ones who are really free to do what they wish with impunity are the upper .1%, for whom the system has become uncannily tailored. I think things are working badly on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.
But I appreciate your perspective, and am heartened to know that it seems you've found a niche for yourself.
And I'd have to argue that life has never allowed anyone to really be free to do what they want with impunity. Society is largely a coping mechanism for life IMO, a way to try and maximize the benefits while minimizing the pitfalls. But I also agree that it's effectiveness is skewed in favor of some more than others. That's been the story for many societies over time it seems. So it's a system that historically seems more stable than any other in many regards.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: redgreenvines]
#23610756 - 09/04/16 09:43 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Human civilization at this point is a cluster-fuck. Who cares how advanced it is? The question is: What is the nature and quality of people's existential lives?...
Quote:
nooneman said: I come into contact with a lot of different people in my job. As a whole, most of the people I've run into are happy, sane, and rational most of the time. There are only a tiny handful that I can list on one hand that I ever thought might be legitimately bad people/irrational/violent/etc.
People in the third world have it worse, no doubt. There is a huge amount of pain and suffering in Africa, South America, the middle east, and parts of Asia. On the other hand, many of these countries have a middle class that is at least struggling to be happy if not actually succeeding.
Then there's the question of what makes people happy. I knew a guy once who loved work more than anyone I have ever seen love work. To him, the perfect life would involve nothing but work. I imagine a guy like him would do extremely well for himself even in a third world country. The dude worked factories and assembly lines and backroom stocking and janitorial work, and he loved every minute of it and was always asking for more. He had multiple jobs not because he needed the money but because he wanted to spend as much of his time working as possible. That kind of guy will be happy anywhere.
The prospects for humanity in the long run are also good. We're getting less violent, lower violent crime rates, having fewer wars, and we've finally got a successful commercial space industry driving down the cost of spaceflight. Prohibition is slowly slowly coming to an end, both legit police abuse and people abusing/lying about the police is coming to light and being addressed now more than ever. More people live in functional democracies today than at any other time. Third world countries are slowly, slowly developing into something not as shitty with larger middle classes and better political systems.
If you look at the trajectory as a whole, I think we're on a damn good path.
I might add that the quality of each person's existential lives is mostly dependent upon their attitude which is not in scope of what society can control.
I agree completely; but as you say below...
Quote:
we have the freedom to express the attitude we want as well as the freedom to allow our attitude to be the messy fermented bag of psychodramatic knee jerk reactions that is the norm. (for instance some poor people are delightful and many rich people are completely depressed and hopeless)
...the norm is rather sad. And you're right that money doesn't determine happiness. Studies show that there is an amount of income beyond which happiness doesn't increase ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/map-happiness-benchmark_n_5592194.html ).
Quote:
it's one thing to allow societal control into the bedroom (i.e. what sex is OK), but inside our heads every waking moment of our day, not so easy.
Most people have no idea what is in their head, so society has no chance at all in regulating it.
then again, this is subject to change after smartphones and self driving flying cars - why not have brainwave detection and automatic adjustment (I shudder to imagine)
Well said.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
#23610765 - 09/04/16 09:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I respect your point, Kickle, and you're right -- aboriginal peoples are often seduced by the ways of civilization. The !Kung are one example of hangers-on, though. It's amusing to see a bushman out there with his spear and paraphernalia wearing a Michael Jordan Nike tee-shirt. Some become spoiled and others don't. But the threat of obliteration of this type of society by a sprawling global society is very real.
All I can say is, in my day-to-day life all I see is malfunction everywhere. I think our system works pitifully poorly at taking care of people, and the only ones who are really free to do what they wish with impunity are the upper .1%, for whom the system has become uncannily tailored. I think things are working badly on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.
But I appreciate your perspective, and am heartened to know that it seems you've found a niche for yourself.
And I'd have to argue that life has never allowed anyone to really be free to do what they want with impunity. Society is largely a coping mechanism for life IMO, a way to try and maximize the benefits while minimizing the pitfalls. But I also agree that it's effectiveness is skewed in favor of some more than others. That's been the story for many societies over time it seems. So it's a system that historically seems more stable than any other in many regards.
I have to say, Kickle, you have a hell of a point. I detect no falsehoods.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Hang on, ho are you guys defining society here? I mean, we're essentially saying that a collection of more than a couple of humans will always lead to a situation where one of said humans finds a way to gain over the rest right?
So are we saying that we are essentially flawed (I think we are), but no longer discussing the fact that 'modern' society has things 1000000x more fucked up than what we could achieve if we went about cohabiting in a more sensible manner?
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] 1
#23611041 - 09/04/16 11:22 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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A society is a collection of humans united by culture, and you could include a particular boundary, language and (sometimes) ethnic group in the equation as well.
I haven't changed my views, I just couldn't find fault with Kickle's comments.
I don't think inequality always arises. Clearly, in many indigenous societies there was radical, effortful egalitarianism.
I agree we're flawed, but I think this was put into check by the particular structure of human societies for most of our existence. This was a more sensible manner to cohabitate, and for the most part we lost it permanently.
Couldn't agree more that modern society is fucked beyond repair. We can never go back and what in hell is the way forward?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Couldn't agree more that modern society is fucked beyond repair. We can never go back and what in hell is the way forward?
ever see the movie 'titanic'?
there are 2 choices: be one of the assholes throwing women and children out of life boats
or be one of the orchestra who plays as the ship goes down.
we were probably all brought up by hopeful parents ...
but the fact of the matter is most humans have had pretty rough lives
must have been great to help build the pyramids, the great wall of china, be worked to death by Stalin, be a coal miner, etc etc most have no real choice or opportunity through out the history of 'civilization', the idea that injustice is some recent mistake of western capitalism, and that otherwise all would be fine, is simply very wrong as far as I can see.
What has happened, that is new, is that capitalism combined with uncontrolled birthrate, and technology,(first the steam & electrical revolutions, then the gasoline: (car, train, truck, plane), then after WWII the chemical revolution, then nuclear, then more plastic, then information -internet, and on into GMOS, cloning, RFID chips, hacking, DNA data base, electronic finance, drone warfare, robo warfare, spy satellites, mono culture of pesticide addicted food crops from monsanto, and so on) has created a planetary wide mess and current ongoing mass extinction that may well mean insects, bacteria, & viruses reemerge as the dominant life forms, for a while.
I have pictures of plow and work horses on a grandfather's farm, just about 100 years ago. After a million years of hominid evolution, and five thousand years of history, the earth was relatively undisturbed, except for the few (easy to hunt)species we exterminated where ever we went. But the last hundred years is all it has taken to create planetary wide havoc.
So I think 'civilization' can't be separated from technology. In "20,000 leagues under the sea" by Jules Verne published in 1870, he foresaw a weapon like the A-bomb, and had the protagonist destroy himself rather than let 'humanity' (talk about an ironic word) get hold of it.
Unfortunately in real life it hasn't worked out that way. We have abused every power, and gift we have been given.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
#23613747 - 09/05/16 04:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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dark, very dark. but that is the essence of attitude - right. you latch onto a view, and wear it. you take a role, and play it.
in this case the view is that society is a sinking Titanic. if that is the case and we have only 2 choices, well, then I would play in the band.
but it is a dark dark attitude to put me there.
--------------------
_ 🧠 _
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
#23614154 - 09/05/16 09:03 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said: the idea that injustice is some recent mistake of western capitalism, and that otherwise all would be fine, is simply very wrong as far as I can see.
Oh, I agree completely. One could make the case that really, since the agricultural revolution the differences between different societies under the umbrella of civilization were cosmetic. I think there are more than a few parallels between modern society and antiquity. At least in an anthropological sense, we are very similar in a lot of ways to ancient Rome, for example.
Capitalism is the just the flavor of a couple of centuries.
Quote:
What has happened, that is new, is that capitalism combined with uncontrolled birthrate, and technology,(first the steam & electrical revolutions, then the gasoline: (car, train, truck, plane), then after WWII the chemical revolution, then nuclear, then more plastic, then information -internet, and on into GMOS, cloning, RFID chips, hacking, DNA data base, electronic finance, drone warfare, robo warfare, spy satellites, mono culture of pesticide addicted food crops from monsanto, and so on) has created a planetary wide mess and current ongoing mass extinction that may well mean insects, bacteria, & viruses reemerge as the dominant life forms, for a while.
I have pictures of plow and work horses on a grandfather's farm, just about 100 years ago. After a million years of hominid evolution, and five thousand years of history, the earth was relatively undisturbed, except for the few (easy to hunt)species we exterminated where ever we went. But the last hundred years is all it has taken to create planetary wide havoc.
Yes, as you say we are embroiled in the Sixth extinction event. And somehow people try to claim everything is just fine.
Quote:
So I think 'civilization' can't be separated from technology. In "20,000 leagues under the sea" by Jules Verne published in 1870, he foresaw a weapon like the A-bomb, and had the protagonist destroy himself rather than let 'humanity' (talk about an ironic word) get hold of it.
Unfortunately in real life it hasn't worked out that way. We have abused every power, and gift we have been given.
I agree, technology has always been a dominant co-evolving force, and never more so than in the twentieth century and today. And soon enough technology will be dictating how we orchestrate our economy at a basic level -- if it hasn't happened already.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: redgreenvines]
#23614326 - 09/05/16 10:25 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: dark, very dark. but that is the essence of attitude - right. you latch onto a view, and wear it. you take a role, and play it.
in this case the view is that society is a sinking Titanic. if that is the case and we have only 2 choices, well, then I would play in the band.
but it is a dark dark attitude to put me there.
'dark' - yes
not that 'society' is sinking, but that both physical systems and biological systems across species are way out of wack in ways that can't be 'put back in the box' and the consequences are out of control
but is it 'a dark dark attitude'? we all already know we are dying, already, etc ... the whole Buddist rap. it is only thru some seriousness, is it not? that we give some structure to our lives beyond pleasure seeking and nepotism.
perhaps it depends on whether we play grimly in the band, being self conscious about being noble, or actually 'get into it' and have a merry time of it.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
#23614667 - 09/05/16 12:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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merrily play in the band floats my version
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: redgreenvines]
#23619790 - 09/06/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Its advanced to the degree of the amount of quality in society that you rate as good vs bad...or right vs wrong.. So if you can be about 70% of yourself around other people..but at home your 100.. than you have come to terms with 70% of society..and we are that advanced therefore!
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer


Registered: 03/03/11
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The fact that we're even able to sit here and discuss this in our air-conditioned apartments and sitting in our lazy boys makes our life experience ten million times better than many of those who lived in the past, and some who live in the present.
We can actually control the temperature of the atmosphere in our residences. We can travel long distances without riding a horse.
We take our conveniences for granted and all-in-all, I think that the average life experience of a human in this day and age is far happier or comfortable than at any other point in history.
Might seem off-topic, but I would like to allude to 9/11 conspiracy theories for example. I don't take sides on whether 9/11 was an "inside job", but the fact that people become obsessed with the thought that their government might have engaged in a false flag operation horrifies them, and makes them think we're living in some dystopian hell.
In many past regimes not that long ago, you could be hung, drawn and quartered just for speaking out against the king or other authority figure.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Or maybe we're just spoiled. 
Can you demonstrate the average person today is happier than someone living a hundred years ago? Five hundred? Ten thousand? How would you know? A case can be made either way, neither with empirical evidence. More conveniences does not necessarily mean happier.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer


Registered: 03/03/11
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Loc: Idaho
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I agree. But it's only because humans adapt to where it is harder for them to be happy when they have more external resources at their disposal to make them happy.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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I don't equate simplicity or primitiveness with unhappiness, but you may and that's okay.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer


Registered: 03/03/11
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Loc: Idaho
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Quote:
Celestial Traveler said:
We take our conveniences for granted and all-in-all, I think that the average life experience of a human in this day and age is far happier or comfortable than at any other point in history.
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Quote:
I agree. But it's only because humans adapt to where it is harder for them to be happy when they have more external resources at their disposal to make them happy.
I might have contradicted myself with careless wording there. But I think it's obvious that humans have more tools to seek happiness nowadays than they did in the past. Part of the problem I think is an inner conflict between seeking happiness, and then finding a purpose to live when there's no more happiness to seek.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Perhaps. Interesting point.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Maybe it is to be found that when one stops seeking, one realizes they had everything they needed all along, fundamentally?
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer


Registered: 03/03/11
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Loc: Idaho
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Yeah I mean, one thing I might interject is to define happiness (although you might have already done that earlier in the thread and I'm too lazy to look right now), but I see your point in that having more conveniences does not equate to more happiness, that's clearly not hard to understand. What I was getting at earlier is that people more tools to achieve happiness now, and they could achieve it if they would simply use those tools.
As our simpler needs/desires are fulfilled though, they become replaced with more complex ones. I think that to a large extent, our needs for food/shelter have been replaced with needs for things like social status, attention, etc. In a way it's sort of like an equilibrium.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Quote:
Celestial Traveler said: Yeah I mean, one thing I might interject is to define happiness (although you might have already done that earlier in the thread and I'm too lazy to look right now), but I see your point in that having more conveniences does not equate to more happiness, that's clearly not hard to understand. What I was getting at earlier is that people more tools to achieve happiness now, and they could achieve it if they would simply use those tools.
As our simpler needs/desires are fulfilled though, they become replaced with more complex ones. I think that to a large extent, our needs for food/shelter have been replaced with needs for things like social status, attention, etc. In a way it's sort of like an equilibrium.
I think those are very good points.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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did I ever mention basic unsatisfactoriness? though our society is more forgiving and provides more options for more fulfillment, our selves are as they always have been.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,564
Loc: Utah
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Or maybe we're just spoiled. 
Can you demonstrate the average person today is happier than someone living a hundred years ago? Five hundred? Ten thousand? How would you know? A case can be made either way, neither with empirical evidence. More conveniences does not necessarily mean happier.
I've read a LOT of material written hundreds of years ago as part of my degree. I can say with some confidence that the average person today is much happier than the average person in the 1700-1800s, and certainly MUCH happier than those that lived before 1000. The further you go back in history, the more brutal life gets, and their writing reflects this. People lived very hard lives that were very brutal and death was common and much closer than it is to us.
Industrialization in the beginning relied on child labor which could be quite dangerous or even lethal for the children involved, and even children at home were tied to things until their spines curved. Women who had children where the father ran off frequently became homeless, and often died. There were prisons for the homeless and prisons for those in debt. Working in factories 12 hours or more without breaks 6 days a week or more was commonplace.
Even farmers in the rural US in the 1700-1800s had it rough. They lived in abject poverty, often in makeshift houses (some of which were little more than holes dug in the ground), they lived and died based on the random prosperity of their crops, they worked to the bone every hour of the day, they lived in constant starvation if their crops did poorly, and if things turned south they either killed themselves or ended up in the factories mentioned above.
Then there's war. War used to be exceedingly common compared to how it is now. War was brutal before the invention of guns. Cities would be raped, their residents tortured and raped to death, and the cities burned to the ground. This happened all across medieval and ancient Europe, Asia, Japan, and America.
Then there's disease. Diseases and plagues of one kind or another used to be common. There are lots of writings from periods of plagues that are insanely depressing. They make it sound as if during a plague virtually everyone in a large city dies, and everyone who doesn't die is constantly expecting to die, and watching the others around them die. Society comes grinding to a halt as people take care of and watch their closest relatives die, before dying themselves. They hear and see their neighbors dying, and sometimes care for them and watch them die. If you lived in a major city, you would experience this at least once in your life prior to the invention of modern medicine. Even the ones that do survive are described as being incredibly altered and distraught by the experience.
Also childbirth used to be frequently fatal, and infant mortality was extremely common, and there was no freedom of speech, or of religion, and little to no economic mobility and very little if any middle class.
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Crumist
Stranger


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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: nooneman]
#23624805 - 09/08/16 05:53 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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What about their writing has given you clues about how happy they are? Genuinely curious, not doubting you.
On the whole, people in richer countries today tend to be happier, but that doesn't prevent relatively high rates of suicide in many rich countries, despite the much greater availability of mental health care. A common trope of many 3rd world poverty-porn type documentaries is some smiley happy-go-lucky fucker who doesn't so much as own the shirt on his back while in the first world we take drugs en masse and talk to shrinks about our 1st world issues.
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: nooneman]
#23625554 - 09/08/16 11:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Or maybe we're just spoiled. 
Can you demonstrate the average person today is happier than someone living a hundred years ago? Five hundred? Ten thousand? How would you know? A case can be made either way, neither with empirical evidence. More conveniences does not necessarily mean happier.
I've read a LOT of material written hundreds of years ago as part of my degree. I can say with some confidence that the average person today is much happier than the average person in the 1700-1800s, and certainly MUCH happier than those that lived before 1000. The further you go back in history, the more brutal life gets, and their writing reflects this. People lived very hard lives that were very brutal and death was common and much closer than it is to us.
Industrialization in the beginning relied on child labor which could be quite dangerous or even lethal for the children involved, and even children at home were tied to things until their spines curved. Women who had children where the father ran off frequently became homeless, and often died. There were prisons for the homeless and prisons for those in debt. Working in factories 12 hours or more without breaks 6 days a week or more was commonplace.
Even farmers in the rural US in the 1700-1800s had it rough. They lived in abject poverty, often in makeshift houses (some of which were little more than holes dug in the ground), they lived and died based on the random prosperity of their crops, they worked to the bone every hour of the day, they lived in constant starvation if their crops did poorly, and if things turned south they either killed themselves or ended up in the factories mentioned above.
Then there's war. War used to be exceedingly common compared to how it is now. War was brutal before the invention of guns. Cities would be raped, their residents tortured and raped to death, and the cities burned to the ground. This happened all across medieval and ancient Europe, Asia, Japan, and America.
Then there's disease. Diseases and plagues of one kind or another used to be common. There are lots of writings from periods of plagues that are insanely depressing. They make it sound as if during a plague virtually everyone in a large city dies, and everyone who doesn't die is constantly expecting to die, and watching the others around them die. Society comes grinding to a halt as people take care of and watch their closest relatives die, before dying themselves. They hear and see their neighbors dying, and sometimes care for them and watch them die. If you lived in a major city, you would experience this at least once in your life prior to the invention of modern medicine. Even the ones that do survive are described as being incredibly altered and distraught by the experience.
Also childbirth used to be frequently fatal, and infant mortality was extremely common, and there was no freedom of speech, or of religion, and little to no economic mobility and very little if any middle class.
You should realize that before the adoption of agriculture, the vast majority of the phenomena you describe were absent. And agriculture wasn't adopted all over the world until relatively recently. In fact, there were large swaths of geography that did not see large-scale agriculture until the last couple hundred years (holdouts could be found in Australia, Africa, North and South America, and parts of Asia). Even today there are some non-agriculturalists, and they're doing well. I'm very sure this isn't a black and white thing with the farther back you go = less happy. That's clearly wrong.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,564
Loc: Utah
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Before the adoption of agriculture means before 10,000 BC. If you go back before 10,000 BC, then I don't know maybe people are happier, but we don't have any actual written evidence of it either way. What we do know is that infant mortality and death in childbirth were both just as common as they always were before the invention of modern medicine, and that conflicts between hunter-gatherer tribes were common and deadly. Modern hunter-gatherers also don't lead such great lives. They live very hard lives, and a lot of them chose to leave that lifestyle because life is so hard.
But like, what are you actually proposing here? That we go back to being hunters and gatherers? In the long run, that will literally kill every human being alive when the sun eventually expands and cooks the earth. Not to mention there's not enough land for everyone to be hunters and gatherers, and giving up modern medicine and technology is just a bad idea.
Edited by nooneman (09/08/16 01:44 PM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: nooneman]
#23625950 - 09/08/16 02:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: Before the adoption of agriculture means before 10,000 BC
No it doesn't. That's a common fallacy. 8,000 BCE is when intenstive agriculture was adopted in the fertile crescent. The whole rest of the world at that time was hunter-gather, or mixed hg (with some small-scale agriculture). There were also some food storing hunter-gatherers, but very few. 10,000 years ago is not when the world switched overnight to agriculture. It has taken 10,000 years to get the point that now almost everyone uses it (but not quite everyone). The world was mostly nonagrarian in most places after the time of Christ. The adoption of agriculture in the fertile crescent was the history of our direct ancestors, NOT the history of all of humanity. As I said, a common and easy fallacy to adopt.
Quote:
If you go back before 10,000 BC, then I don't know maybe people are happier, but we don't have any actual written evidence of it either way. What we do know is that infant mortality and death in childbirth were both just as common as they always were before the invention of modern medicine, and that conflicts between hunter-gatherer tribes were common and deadly. Modern hunter-gatherers also don't lead such great lives. They live very hard lives, and a lot of them chose to leave that lifestyle because life is so hard.
Life as hunter-gatherers was not as near-impossible as people think. They did have high infant mortality, but those who did make it commonly lived into their eighties. That is why the numbers on average death age are lower -- because of infant deaths. Some hgs were very peaceful, others were not, but you have to realize that the conflicts these people engaged in were healthy spats keeping people honest, and were NOTHING like modern warfare.
Quote:
But like, what are you actually proposing here? That we go back to being hunters and gatherers? In the long run, that will literally kill every human being alive when the sun eventually expands and cooks the earth. Not to mention there's not enough land for everyone to be hunters and gatherers, and giving up modern medicine and technology is just a bad idea.
No, I'm not arguing that we go back to being hunter-gatherers or even that that would be a desirable thing. The point is that the factors you listed illustrating the past are not universal.
Definitely, definitely not arguing for going back. We'd have to depopulate the planet by seven and a half billion people to make it feasible.
If you or anyone else is interested in learning more, follow the link in my sig: http://huntergatherers.org . It gives a comprehensive anthropological review of the subject.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Crumist
Stranger


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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:The world was mostly nonagrarian in most places after the time of Christ.
 Quote:
Life as hunter-gatherers was not as near-impossible as people think. They did have high infant mortality, but those who did make it commonly lived into their eighties. That is why the numbers on average death age are lower -- because of infant deaths. Some hgs were very peaceful, others were not, but you have to realize that the conflicts these people engaged in were healthy spats keeping people honest, and were NOTHING like modern warfare.
Why were hg infant mortality deaths higher? Also, there were a thousand and one ways to die living in either kind of society from 5,000BC through most of written history. At the beginning of civilization and agriculture, Jared Diamond (lol, I've heard hes a joke among actual anthropologists and historians) and other make the argument civilized folk lived harder, less healthy lives. But as domestication continued and technology and techniques improved, people living in civilization reduced childhood mortality and the myriad of ways one can die at the hands of mother nature. To compensate we invented religion and private property to slaughter each other, but I digress.
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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deff
just love everyone



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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Crumist] 1
#23627078 - 09/08/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I really enjoyed Charles Eisenstein's take on hunter gatherer societies and similar issues in his book 'Ascent of Humanity' - it's been a while since I've read it and can't recall the content too well, but it was in line with what DQ is saying, that HG societies were not as deprived as we imagine looking back, and in many ways had improvements over our current ways of life. The book goes into a wide array of topics, that being one. anyways I highly recommend it
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Crumist]
#23627164 - 09/08/16 08:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: Why were hg infant mortality deaths higher?
Also, there were a thousand and one ways to die living in either kind of society from 5,000BC through most of written history. At the beginning of civilization and agriculture, Jared Diamond (lol, I've heard hes a joke among actual anthropologists and historians) and other make the argument civilized folk lived harder, less healthy lives. But as domestication continued and technology and techniques improved, people living in civilization reduced childhood mortality and the myriad of ways one can die at the hands of mother nature. To compensate we invented religion and private property to slaughter each other, but I digress.
Infant mortality was higher for a reason you might expect: children were particularly susceptible to diseases and infection that modern vaccines and antibiotics can address. As a result of this high mortality rate, all the averages get pulled down, and those who did make it through to adulthood commonly lived into their seventies and eighties. You are very right that sedentary societies greatly impacted infant mortality positively, eventually. Of course, over most of the ten thousand years of civilization, we didn't have antibiotics and vaccines so it's not night and day.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Crumist
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Its not just vaccines and antibiotics though. Living in proximity with domesticated animals inoculated the peasants against a variety of diseases. Permanent structures used for housing may have protected against predators and the elements. Once agriculture was sufficiently productive, large amounts of food could be stored to prevent famine during hard times. Social conventions and structures provided alternative forms of conflict resolution reducing the homicide rate (IIRC hgs have high rates of homicide per/capita and inter-hgs blood feuds can be sustained for extremely long periods of time)
If you look at hgs today, they don't all end up dying as children or at 80 years old. Yes infant mortality is high, but living out amongst nature is fucking dangerous. Im not proposing every hg dies before he turns 30, but the agricultural world made slow, incremental improvements to increase their collective welfare before penicillin and germ theory.
Wait a minute, we were talking happiness, not welfare. Yeah, you win, I've seen studies on how hgs are relatively happy and subsistence farmers can be rather miserable.
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Crumist]
#23627272 - 09/08/16 09:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: Its not just vaccines and antibiotics though. Living in proximity with domesticated animals inoculated the peasants against a variety of diseases. Permanent structures used for housing may have protected against predators and the elements. Once agriculture was sufficiently productive, large amounts of food could be stored to prevent famine during hard times. Social conventions and structures provided alternative forms of conflict resolution reducing the homicide rate (IIRC hgs have high rates of homicide per/capita and inter-hgs blood feuds can be sustained for extremely long periods of time)
I just want to address the homicide rates. In most of the groups I've studied, homicide was not a major problem at all. Hgs have what are called "levelling mechanisms" that enable very successful conflict resolution. Now, the Yanomamo of Brazil, on the other hand, are one of the most brutal human societies on record. Extremely violent. But I have found that this level of violence is more the exception than the rule.
Quote:
If you look at hgs today, they don't all end up dying as children or at 80 years old. Yes infant mortality is high, but living out amongst nature is fucking dangerous. Im not proposing every hg dies before he turns 30, but the agricultural world made slow, incremental improvements to increase their collective welfare before penicillin and germ theory.
I can't argue with that.
Quote:
Wait a minute, we were talking happiness, not welfare. Yeah, you win, I've seen studies on how hgs are relatively happy and subsistence farmers can be rather miserable.
It's true.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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technology is advanced. civilisation cannot grasp the concept of conserving and preserving ATP, currency, and working as socially conscious group-body.
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: akira_akuma] 1
#23628243 - 09/09/16 07:28 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Things get better with time but I don't necessarily think people are any better off now than they were in 75 when I finished high school or 80 when I went away to college.
Viet Nam was over.
The political system was way more cooperative than the clown show we have now.
Everyone got their shots and vaccinations, and nobody ever talked about autism, aspergers, ADHT (and I can't even remember the one before that with 3 letters). A couple kids had Down's Syndrome. and every one else was normal. Sure a couple of the normal kids were weirder than others, but I don't think the current system of diagnosis and treatment is making those kids any happier or well off than they were then.
People weren't joining health clubs. You walked way more than now, you ran, you did pushups and situps and stretching exercises. If you wanted to bulk up more you bought some weights. The whole idea that you have to join a health club to be in shape is the stupidest thing I ever heard. The only consolation I ever made was to buy a treadmill so I could get my aerobics in the dead of winter. Sure, if you are at a university there are facilities so why not use them. If you were in the city there was the YMCA (I don't know I never been in one) I do know that the U.S. military relies mainly on pushups, situps and running (My info on that is a little out of date so I can't swear to it.)
I'm wracking my brain to think of how life is better now than it was in 75. My poor ass family took a long time to get AC and colored TV but we had it by the early 70's. The only thing I can think of is that electronic ignition cars were more reliable than carburetors for the average driver (gearheads liked the carburetors and rear wheel drive)'
I'm sure I have forgotten some things and will be corrected by other posters.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Withinity
Untitled

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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Brian Jones] 1
#23629433 - 09/09/16 03:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's the same thing we are talking about civilization and capitalizing really. It's an organized type of capitalism and I think its become very confusing , the church was probably easier to deal with even if they were more harsh. You knew exactly where you stood, your a slave, peasant or some other rank which most of the time would dictate your life. In other terms regarding Barbarians and 'uncivilized civilizations' they also have a pecking order though more self determined. The strongest leads or something like this.
People get so caught up and forget about the pecking order and now with the younger gens they want to change the pecking order by trying to get rid of it. That's fine but as we are still capitalizing civilization its not working out so well.
You can have so much access to information these days like never before. And that's what people want , free shit all this free shit but at the same time Pokemon'GOes up 10million in one week on the stock market. How did that happen with a free to play game? Or Windows 10 being given away for free by Microsoft...
It's not free , you pay with information , they keep getting stricter slowly by slowly, always making your own stuff harder to access , taking more personal information from you in the name of security.
Science may be neutral but Man is not and when he wields something like this I am afraid the end result of the same thing repeating will make the past atrociousness of Religion look like a little bitch.
It's so crazy, capitalizing on the capitalists a.k.a Tax making the rich get richer and the poor stay that way but it's all fucked up now because peasants think they can be kings or whatnot which is cool and all that, I'm also a peasant in this regard but you can just be a King who can't make a difference and in my book that's not really a King.
Those elitists are very real and are just doing what is natural to them , just like the nobleman or the Knight, but everyone spits on a greedy king that does not care for his people as his very existence can disturb the self fabricated reality's we create in societies that make up a civilization.
This is going to be insane, like trying to shove a cucumber into a hole as small as the top of a coke bottle. Sure your going to get some in there but its going to be extremely messy and a large portion will end up discarded on the ground. Yes, Globalization. Its happening too much and too quickly, but at the same time its kind of like this survival of the fittest shit all over again just the snake shed its skin and now maintains an alternate appearance. Cyber this, multicultural that etc..
Nature is brutal so who is judging 'too much' maybe its the ones who started getting less crumbs from the ones ontop civilization. There's alot of ways to decrease population besides the obvious shit like Atomic bombs. Just think about how many people won't carry on their seed once they figure out how to replicate sex in virtual reality which is already being worked on.
When did an Animal besides human ever grow up to live a full life when born with Disability. Civilization is always weeding out the plebs one way or another.
Go cry about Capitalism on your iPhone designed in California but made in China, you generation of inbred, degenerate technology addicts.
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Withinity
Untitled

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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Withinity]
#23629498 - 09/09/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/17/postcapitalism-end-of-capitalism-begun
Prime example of bullshit and a capitalization catering to the peoples desires through the 'information age'. Once they know what you want they can sell to you easier. Imagine you could read peoples mind's it would be easier to control and cater to them no?
Facebook:
'Tell us whats on your mind'
https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-data-science/whats-on-your-mind/477517358858/
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Withinity]
#23629506 - 09/09/16 03:51 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's the same thing we are talking about civilization and capitalizing really. It's an organized type of capitalism and I think its become very confusing , the church was probably easier to deal with even if they were more harsh. You knew exactly where you stood, your a slave, peasant or some other rank which most of the time would dictate your life. In other terms regarding Barbarians and 'uncivilized civilizations' they also have a pecking order though more self determined. The strongest leads or something like this.
People get so caught up and forget about the pecking order and now with the younger gens they want to change the pecking order by trying to get rid of it. That's fine but as we are still capitalizing civilization its not working out so well.
You can have so much access to information these days like never before. And that's what people want , free shit all this free shit but at the same time Pokemon'GOes up 10million in one week on the stock market. How did that happen with a free to play game? Or Windows 10 being given away for free by Microsoft...
It's not free , you pay with information , they keep getting stricter slowly by slowly, always making your own stuff harder to access , taking more personal information from you in the name of security.
Science may be neutral but Man is not and when he wields something like this I am afraid the end result of the same thing repeating will make the past atrociousness of Religion look like a little bitch.
It's so crazy, capitalizing on the capitalists a.k.a Tax making the rich get richer and the poor stay that way but it's all fucked up now because peasants think they can be kings or whatnot which is cool and all that, I'm also a peasant in this regard but you can just be a King who can't make a difference and in my book that's not really a King.
Those elitists are very real and are just doing what is natural to them , just like the nobleman or the Knight, but everyone spits on a greedy king that does not care for his people as his very existence can disturb the self fabricated reality's we create in societies that make up a civilization.
This is going to be insane, like trying to shove a cucumber into a hole as small as the top of a coke bottle. Sure your going to get some in there but its going to be extremely messy and a large portion will end up discarded on the ground. Yes, Globalization. Its happening too much and too quickly, but at the same time its kind of like this survival of the fittest shit all over again just the snake shed its skin and now maintains an alternate appearance. Cyber this, multicultural that etc..
Nature is brutal so who is judging 'too much' maybe its the ones who started getting less crumbs from the ones ontop civilization. There's alot of ways to decrease population besides the obvious shit like Atomic bombs. Just think about how many people won't carry on their seed once they figure out how to replicate sex in virtual reality which is already being worked on.
When did an Animal besides human ever grow up to live a full life when born with Disability. Civilization is always weeding out the plebs one way or another.
Go cry about Capitalism on your iPhone designed in California but made in China, you generation of inbred, degenerate technology addicts.
Interesting post, Withinity.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Withinity]
#23629514 - 09/09/16 03:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Withinity said: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/17/postcapitalism-end-of-capitalism-begun
Prime example of bullshit and a capitalization catering to the peoples desires through the 'information age'. Once they know what you want they can sell to you easier. Imagine you could read peoples mind's it would be easier to control and cater to them no?
Facebook:
'Tell us whats on your mind'
https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-data-science/whats-on-your-mind/477517358858/
Yes, well, the cornerstone of the modern global economy is the fabrication of wants. People sure get irrationally worked up over stuff.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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BrendanFlock
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John is a looking like going out scout...which is named Birute...for the first finger..of her death..in her struts...inside and out..considering the cold war..of a person..inside and out..inside and out in side and out..the coincidence..of synchronicity.indeed a raid made by Charlie...indeed is the Rabel..Boy Housted..Eye toward the commno Quebec City!
This is CIA Code...and we can reveal what we want when we want!
CIA is a mainframe in time..just like CSIS...or MI6...so when people talk..you can take your particular aim from their words...and thats what secret police is like...each to their own..but the ultimate truth is an abomination..of how pure and holy everyone is..to the degree...that we would have to lay flat on the ground..and earing up like a serpent..to see the sun of set...which is a Set play itself..indeed is the Jargon a bitter..indeed are the rays coming in shine!
The degree that I speaketh is about Freemasonry...and I am a Grandmaster Freemason..with the 33rd Degree...in check..and because I practice at home..I can be said to be Free! Such that this is the bitterness between us..indeed we all need to teleport to our very needy hands..and feet...Such is the cosm true..for one without birth light is a carrying case for the Golden Dawn..and the New Dawn..of awareness...we are about to take over the world together..and that is the shining of 2012!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#23632841 - 09/10/16 03:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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incredibly weird meaning mangled commenting style - is there any particular message in it except that "nobody will ever know what you are really thinking"?
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laughingdog
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I think, one might say loosely speaking that, civilization was at an ok point technologically in the ‘50s, for those in the “Western world”. Major diseases under control; population more reasonable; extinction of species, and rampant pollution, still in the future. Many rural areas were still unspoiled. No disposable plastic razors, no irradiated food. No plastic island in the pacific. All the tail fins on the cars got pretty silly in the US. One could easily count the big cities. One middle class working person could feed a family And so on …
The last 65 years or so have been a strange acceleration, of more and more negative factors.
One very noticeable change to the ‘American landscape’, has been the phenomenon of franchises and ‘big box stores’. In the fifties a ‘shopping center’ was a big deal. And most stores were run by families or individuals, and had a different character from one another.
Now if you go on a road trip, and go say 1 or 2 thousand miles and are in an urban area it may actually be hard to tell where you are. This is really strange, and must have some psychological effects on folks.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
#23633319 - 09/10/16 05:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, American culture has definitely become homogenized quite a bit. With all of the corporate chains now, cities that once had dynamic personalities are losing their identity. I think this is happening to some extent in Europe as well. We're replacing uniqueness and character with a monoculture that spreads across the country.
I think it definitely must have psychological effects, but I'm not altogether sure we know what those are, or will be, yet. When the internet was just gaining steam, in the early to mid nineties, some people wrote of the fear that it would cause everyone to think in the same ways, and there would be a loss of diversity of thought. I don't know whether that's true, but I think the same could be said of the monoculture I've described. We'll see how it all goes, I guess.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
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yes one thing we have exported (besides 'popular' music) is junk food and interestingly the spread of diabeties to cultures that didn't have it goes along with it.
One effect of all this homginization, (which of course includes stuff we haven't got around to considering like: TV, color TV, consolidation of control of media, and far right AM talk radio); must be a Desenitization, as the natural world tends to be interesting, if not beautiful, and adverising is ugly and uses large swatches of flat color, besides being based on conditioning and 'subliminal' misinformation if not outright lies.
Of course, as we all know, if a person behaved as self destructively as 'society' we would be shocked and send them to therapy, but it seems the profit motive, fear of communism, and who knows what other fears, are more harmful than actual viruses.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
#23633447 - 09/10/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quite true, well said. Yes, I think we've become very desensitized in a lot of ways. I mean, the natural world means nothing anymore to tens of millions of people, especially urban dwellers. It's a significant problem.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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RJ Tubs 202


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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: nooneman]
#23634243 - 09/10/16 10:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said:
I've read a LOT of material written hundreds of years ago as part of my degree. I can say with some confidence that the average person today is much happier than the average person in the 1700-1800s, and certainly MUCH happier than those that lived before 1000. The further you go back in history, the more brutal life gets, and their writing reflects this. People lived very hard lives that were very brutal and death was common and much closer than it is to us.
It sounds like you equate "brutality" of life with peace of mind. Not sure they are related.
Just in the US . . .
Cell phone use while driving leads to 1.6 million crashes each year.
Every 53 minutes someone is killed due to drunk driving.
Over 50,000 people die every year from getting loaded on drugs to get high.
It appears life is still very brutal.
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happyherb
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23634308 - 09/10/16 10:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Most people are a sleep
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23634434 - 09/11/16 12:02 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Just in the US . . .
Cell phone use while driving leads to 1.6 million crashes each year.
found it hard to beleive -- but it is as you say
https://www.edgarsnyder.com/car-accident/cause-of-accident/cell-phone/cell-phone-statistics.html
of course texting is even crazier - but apparently ....
'Nearly 330,000 injuries occur each year from accidents caused by texting while driving. 1 out of every 4 car accidents in the United States is caused by texting and driving. Texting while driving is 6x more likely to cause an accident than driving drunk.'
what fools these mortals be ... indeed
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RJ Tubs 202


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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
#23634443 - 09/11/16 12:05 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
Texting while driving is 6x more likely to cause an accident than driving drunk.
Phones are weapons of mass distraction.
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laughingdog
Stranger

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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#23634457 - 09/11/16 12:15 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Phones are weapons of mass distraction.
funny ...
about 50 years of color TV and maybe about 20 of video games & email, multiple choice tests, ... the 'culture' was already headed that way
but the phones are certainly a match made in heaven for the current 'mindset'
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#23654857 - 09/18/16 06:01 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: incredibly weird meaning mangled commenting style - is there any particular message in it except that "nobody will ever know what you are really thinking"?
Well its a commentary on chaos and stream of consciousness writing..
To associate any meaning to any word at all that I wrote..directly gives you the meaning..and knowledge of my position which is that the words themselves are communicating a symbolic form of information, which As we speak..is in more witness than another..form of verbal communication..
In otherwords...you could not help but take away meaning from my post..therefore..you can indeed understand what im thinking...or at least the partiality of the post which was a projection of my thoughts and thought locuses...or even pure mind and soul for example...but its still writing..and can be interpreted like any other writing..
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BrendanFlock
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#23654858 - 09/18/16 06:01 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Boundless!
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Withinity said: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/17/postcapitalism-end-of-capitalism-begun
Prime example of bullshit and a capitalization catering to the peoples desires through the 'information age'. Once they know what you want they can sell to you easier. Imagine you could read peoples mind's it would be easier to control and cater to them no?
Facebook:
'Tell us whats on your mind'
https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-data-science/whats-on-your-mind/477517358858/
Yes, well, the cornerstone of the modern global economy is the fabrication of wants. People sure get irrationally worked up over stuff.
Sorry I took so long to respond. You hit the nail on the head with the significance of fabrication of wants. I saw a great symbolic display the 2nd time I saw REM (5th album). For the first song a giant screen just white with black letters flashed Want, then Need for 5 minutes; I think the song was "Finest Worksong". The whole time I'm thinking 3 years earlier my Socialist Theory professor had talked 100 times about want vs. need.
And within your post was the post of Withinity talking about reading people's minds to target their advertising and customers. I'm more suspicious than that recalling the subliminal advertising campaigns flashing images on the screen with frames so brief the eye could not detect them, but the mind still absorbed them. This was criminalized, but then many examples came out of single pictures in magazines that subliminally got your mind thinking about sex, or something desirable without being apparent to the conscious mind. I'm sure they are still researching and practicing this. Talk about manufacturing desire.
Just curious, how many posters remember or realize when you could only advertise beer or wine on TV and never hard liquor. Don't remember what year the law changed. I will admit that a couple of hard liquor ad campaigns currently running are IMO very well done, but they can't sell me because I only drink lite beer.
My modern theory professor published a journal article around 1989 on semiotics analysis of the label on a Jack Daniels bottle.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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PlantManBee
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] 2
#24209584 - 03/31/17 11:13 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: I think our system works pitifully poorly at taking care of people
This is my real gripe. We live in a system where profits are #1, and the mental health of the populous are #163 or something.
Still, I've come to expect little other than paradox from this crazy world, and paradox it most certainly is.
bingo
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laughingdog
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Registered: 03/14/04
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Human civilization at this point is a cluster-fuck. Who cares how advanced it is? The question is: What is the nature and quality of people's existential lives? Are people getting happier over time? Looking around at the global situation, it would seem that quality of life is being negatively impacted for most as the population spirals.
So the question is: How advanced are we really as a species? We have these fabulous technologies, but as I mention quality of life has grown poorer per capita, it would certainly seem, for the vast majority. In fact, most people in the third world do not even have access to most of these technologies, and we're talking billions of people here. Have we taken one step forward and two steps back?
I think this quote is apropos:
Quote:
"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase. This is as true of humans in the finite space of a planetary ecosystem as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask. The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who do survive." --Frank Herbert
What are your thoughts?
(by the way an old thread)
the questions you ask have very different answers there seem to be 2 major questions:
1)How advanced are we really as a species?
Ans: No species are ‘advanced’, they are only adapted to environments, at a certain point, or period, in time.
2)Are people getting happier over time?
Ans: you can find a list of happiest countries on line. The happier ones are the Scandinavian ones, which have better social safety nets, and kinder values, and which are less punitive. Most of the rest of the world has a worse track record. The USA shows poorly which is to be expected as it is an imperialist power as explained by Chalmers Johnson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalmers_Johnson
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
#24209686 - 04/01/17 12:12 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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How ethically advanced can any society be to have something so foundational as this.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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laughingdog
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: sudly]
#24209710 - 04/01/17 12:35 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: How ethically advanced can any society be to have something so foundational as this.
No species are ‘advanced’, they are only adapted to environments, at a certain point, or period, in time.
No species are ‘ethical’, they are only adapted to environments, at a certain point, or period, in time.
"ethical" would seem to be an abstract human concept that does not apply to the behavior of biological organisms, anymore than it does to atoms or galaxies. As someone who's every post shows a predatory insect that eats its victims alive, you are perhaps already familiar with this idea.
Of course human societies have cultures, which are based on shared 'hallucinations' or agreements, and conditionings, which foster belief in such a notion, and those which do show compassion are generally pleasanter to live in.
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sudly
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
#24209723 - 04/01/17 12:43 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is one rather advanced species out here.
Quote:
Advanced: far on or ahead in development or progress.
A constitution sure is an attempt to act ethically.
Ethical, moral, being able to decide the difference between what is good and what is bad; not an abstract concept.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Mike O. Phile
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The myth that we represent the current pinnacle of human achievement originates with Darwin's theory of evolution. Prior to this, because of Christian understandings, it was felt that humanity was actually deteriorating (ever since the Fall). The idea that progress or evolution is a linear and uninterrupted process isn't really what Darwin articulated, but that's what it has become in the public imagination.
This impoverished understanding of evolution justified all sorts of horrific acts (i.e. cultural and actual genocide, on the basis that indigenous people were 'less advanced' and needed 'civilising'. Australian aborigines were classified as fauna until 1967- no shit). It also completely elides all the really shitty things we do in the present, because we can reassure ourselves that however bad things are, they MUST have been worst in the past. To an extent this is true, but in many other ways we are more barbaric now than even the most 'primitive' earlier societies.
I think human nature remains unchanged. It's just that the social conditions which regulate our interactions with each other change (and not necessarily in a progressive way either). At the moment, society values money and individualism. And look where that's gotten us.
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tHEfLY
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Mike O. Phile]
#24211336 - 04/01/17 04:38 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Completely agree. It seems almost every traditional culture has held a cyclic view of history, where cultures rise and fall like the seasons from spring to winter, or an individual going through the stages of life from birth to death. All forms of life follow the same basic pattern. It makes me think of Philip K. Dick's mystical experience in 1974 when his immediate surroundings disappeared and the underlying archetypal structure of ancient Rome was revealed, leading him to the conclusion that time itself doesn't even exist, let alone "progress". The important thing is the timeless spirit behind it all.
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PlantManBee
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: tHEfLY]
#24211372 - 04/01/17 04:54 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
tHEfLY said: It makes me think of Philip K. Dick's mystical experience in 1974 when his immediate surroundings disappeared and the underlying archetypal structure of ancient Rome was revealed, leading him to the conclusion that time itself doesn't even exist, let alone "progress".
This leads me to believe that Meth is either the best drug.... or the worst drug.
I think he was right.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: PlantManBee]
#24213662 - 04/02/17 04:55 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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true
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: PlantManBee] 1
#24213708 - 04/02/17 05:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
PlantManBee said:
Quote:
tHEfLY said: It makes me think of Philip K. Dick's mystical experience in 1974 when his immediate surroundings disappeared and the underlying archetypal structure of ancient Rome was revealed, leading him to the conclusion that time itself doesn't even exist, let alone "progress".
This leads me to believe that Meth is either the best drug.... or the worst drug.
I think he was right.
Let us not forget Patrick Henry who said "Give me liberty or give me meth!" He was an all or nothing type guy.
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The Blind Ass
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What is amazing is how spoiled our species has become Whats more amazing is our beyond-blindness to the human condition as it is.
Also from this "blindness" comes that we are stymied in regards to realizing and then actualizing our most ancient dreams.
the word Advanced - applied to civilization, if measured simply by getting things done more efficiently over time - then sure ... but when that is the sole arbiter for measuring advancement, in regards to humanity, its missing the point - it falls so short.
Its as if we are under a spell to not be able to realize/recognize we are blind and dumb.
A bit like the matrix.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: The Blind Ass]
#24213909 - 04/02/17 07:03 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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When basic needs are met, not too much catches our attention. Take those things away and it is a whole 'nother game.
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BrendanFlock
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Fellings or intuition?
I think we are about 60% of potential..
So that means reasonable advanced..but still journeymen on a quest for knowledge..
Still lots to discover and do..
Both spiritually and technologically.
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laughingdog
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: BrendanFlock] 1
#24214285 - 04/02/17 10:32 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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ahhhhhh
funny synchronous threads … one about the ’meaning’ of life and one about the ‘advancement’ of civilization there is (IMO) no difference between ’society’, ‘civilization’, and ’self’ as regards these abstract concepts
well you all already know how it goes …
you 'advance' to the the last row of the board/bored game and you get 'kinged’.
…. but then meanwhile back in real life you (will (eventually)) die.
So every time we leave the present moment ... (aka when we get ‘bored’)… this leaving is also called: 'desire’, and ‘identification’ with inner dialogue, aka story, aka thoughts, … and when it happens, which even if it (the desire, etc.) gets fullfilled - (we get what we thought we wanted) - it eventually turns into a changed situation … (for which the i-ching gives millions of permutations), … which again changes … and so on …. hence it's called: ‘the book of changes’ …
but in any case, the hope of a resting place/aka peace/satisfaction is dashed and a new desire immediately arises, before the lesson of the hopelessness of hope is learned. Hope is of course, in spite of its popularity as a “positive” emotion really based on fear, and dissatisfaction, and ungratefulness. High expectations are another version of hope.
and “advancement” is of course only another version of ‘hope’
Meanwhile back in the present moment (which some only experience in a yoga class, or tai chi class, or during sex, … at such a time) there is no story taking place in the mind; - - and it is only ‘story’ aka ‘thought’ which requires ideas like ‘meaning’ or concepts like ‘advancement’ to create the drama necessary to advance a plot that holds interest, when attention to present time sensory input has been lost, due to lack of concentration power.
in summary ‘meaning’ and other related conceptual ideals such as: ‘hope’ ,’advancement’, ’truth’, and dare I say it?: ‘love’, etc. … are poor substitutes for concentration and mindfulness. But don’t take my word for it observe for yourself whether the most delicious dessert (or other supposed wonderful perception) can bring you satisfaction if you are distracted.
It is the context of awareness itself that is the source of happiness, not is pathetic contents which includes both perceptions of sensations, and perceptions of intellectual contents which include ‘meaning’. But again don’t take my word for it, observe for yourself.
This truth is avoided perhaps because building concentration power involves hard work, and not some sparkling new meaning one can acquire that gives one superiority over others, who seemingly are ignorant of one’s new possession. It’s certainly not a hidden truth. After all who can ever enjoy anything they aren’t paying attention to? But we are so lazy, and the ideas of meaning and advancement and superiority are so alluring.
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BlueCoyote
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: When basic needs are met, not too much catches our attention. Take those things away and it is a whole 'nother game.
Indeed. And maybe about 80% people on earth living that 'nother game (not even starting to talk about other species). What's that telling us about their advancement ? And 'what' hinders them ? Are those that hinders them 'advanced' ?
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RJ Tubs 202


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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
#24216704 - 04/03/17 11:25 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
So every time we leave the present moment ... (aka when we get ‘bored’)… this leaving is also called: 'desire’, and ‘identification’ with inner dialogue, aka story, aka thoughts, …
Amen
Quote:
laughingdog said:
After all who can ever enjoy anything they aren’t paying attention to?
Quote:
laughingdog said:
After all who can ever enjoy anything they aren’t paying attention to?
Quote:
laughingdog said:
After all who can ever enjoy anything they aren’t paying attention to?
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
Posts: 4,293
Loc: New Zealand
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Civilisation has degenerated in more ways than it has advanced. We have whizz-bang technology but are spiritually very sick, in a lot of pain and often too dumb and confused to even realise.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: viktor]
#24216874 - 04/04/17 01:01 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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60% is probably accurate..unless I cant see the sun from the stars..
in terms of completion or final goal..society would know everything..necessarily..so we could therefore base our reasoning on the idea that what our knowledge is equal to our progress?
Does anyone disagree?
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BrendanFlock
Stranger


Registered: 06/01/13
Posts: 4,216
Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#24216877 - 04/04/17 01:02 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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80% or otherwise the whole concept of pyramids of approach and matter are likely the alpha and the omega signalling from the top of the triangle..which has a beacon to the stars..and is in vertex to all the known stars in the universe...and from the net wired sheet..or astral blanket(a foreign galaxy)
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RJ Tubs 202


Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,016
Loc: USA
Last seen: 14 hours, 6 minutes
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: BrendanFlock]
#24216894 - 04/04/17 01:18 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
BrendanFlock said:
...so we could therefore base our reasoning on the idea that what our knowledge is equal to our progress?
I give more weight to knowledge of what causes suffering than to space travel.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: viktor]
#24217255 - 04/04/17 08:40 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: Civilisation has degenerated in more ways than it has advanced. We have whizz-bang technology but are spiritually very sick, in a lot of pain and often too dumb and confused to even realise.
Yes, that's very much the impetus behind this thread. If one measures our "progress" by how happy and spiritually healthy we are, we're doing pitifully poorly. And as you point out, most people aren't even aware of their predicament. It's awful.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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