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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23610756 - 09/04/16 09:43 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Human civilization at this point is a cluster-fuck.  Who cares how advanced it is?  The question is: What is the nature and quality of people's existential lives?...




Quote:

nooneman said:
I come into contact with a lot of different people in my job. As a whole, most of the people I've run into are happy, sane, and rational most of the time. There are only a tiny handful that I can list on one hand that I ever thought might be legitimately bad people/irrational/violent/etc.

People in the third world have it worse, no doubt. There is a huge amount of pain and suffering in Africa, South America, the middle east, and parts of Asia. On the other hand, many of these countries have a middle class that is at least struggling to be happy if not actually succeeding.

Then there's the question of what makes people happy. I knew a guy once who loved work more than anyone I have ever seen love work. To him, the perfect life would involve nothing but work. I imagine a guy like him would do extremely well for himself even in a third world country. The dude worked factories and assembly lines and backroom stocking and janitorial work, and he loved every minute of it and was always asking for more. He had multiple jobs not because he needed the money but because he wanted to spend as much of his time working as possible. That kind of guy will be happy anywhere.

The prospects for humanity in the long run are also good. We're getting less violent, lower violent crime rates, having fewer wars, and we've finally got a successful commercial space industry driving down the cost of spaceflight. Prohibition is slowly slowly coming to an end, both legit police abuse and people abusing/lying about the police is coming to light and being addressed now more than ever. More people live in functional democracies today than at any other time. Third world countries are slowly, slowly developing into something not as shitty with larger middle classes and better political systems.

If you look at the trajectory as a whole, I think we're on a damn good path.





I might add that the quality of each person's existential lives is mostly dependent upon their attitude which is not in scope of what society can control.




I agree completely; but as you say below...

Quote:

we have the freedom to express the attitude we want as well as the freedom to allow our attitude to be the messy fermented bag of psychodramatic knee jerk reactions that is the norm. (for instance some poor people are delightful and many rich people are completely depressed and hopeless)




...the norm is rather sad.  And you're right that money doesn't determine happiness.  Studies show that there is an amount of income beyond which happiness doesn't increase ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/17/map-happiness-benchmark_n_5592194.html ).

Quote:

it's one thing to allow societal control into the bedroom (i.e. what sex is OK), but inside our heads every waking moment of our day, not so easy.

Most people have no idea what is in their head, so society has no chance at all in regulating it.

then again,
this is subject to change
after smartphones and self driving flying cars - why not have brainwave detection and automatic adjustment (I shudder to imagine)




Well said. :thumbup:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
    #23610765 - 09/04/16 09:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I respect your point, Kickle, and you're right -- aboriginal peoples are often seduced by the ways of civilization.  The !Kung are one example of hangers-on, though.  It's amusing to see a bushman out there with his spear and paraphernalia wearing a Michael Jordan Nike tee-shirt.  Some become spoiled and others don't.  But the threat of obliteration of this type of society by a sprawling global society is very real.

All I can say is, in my day-to-day life all I see is malfunction everywhere.  I think our system works pitifully poorly at taking care of people, and the only ones who are really free to do what they wish with impunity are the upper .1%, for whom the system has become uncannily tailored.  I think things are working badly on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

But I appreciate your perspective, and am heartened to know that it seems you've found a niche for yourself.




And I'd have to argue that life has never allowed anyone to really be free to do what they want with impunity. Society is largely a coping mechanism for life IMO, a way to try and maximize the benefits while minimizing the pitfalls. But I also agree that it's effectiveness is skewed in favor of some more than others. That's been the story for many societies over time it seems. So it's a system that historically seems more stable than any other in many regards.




I have to say, Kickle, you have a hell of a point.  I detect no falsehoods.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23610980 - 09/04/16 11:02 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Hang on, ho are you guys defining society here? I mean, we're essentially saying that a collection of more than a couple of humans will always lead to a situation where one of said humans finds a way to gain over the rest right?

So are we saying that we are essentially flawed (I think we are), but no longer discussing the fact that 'modern' society has things 1000000x more fucked up than what we could achieve if we went about cohabiting in a more sensible manner?


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23611041 - 09/04/16 11:22 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

A society is a collection of humans united by culture, and you could include a particular boundary, language and (sometimes) ethnic group in the equation as well.

I haven't changed my views, I just couldn't find fault with Kickle's comments.

I don't think inequality always arises.  Clearly, in many indigenous societies there was radical, effortful egalitarianism.

I agree we're flawed, but I think this was put into check by the particular structure of human societies for most of our existence.  This was a more sensible manner to cohabitate, and for the most part we lost it permanently.

Couldn't agree more that modern society is fucked beyond repair.  We can never go back and what in hell is the way forward?


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23613461 - 09/05/16 01:17 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

Couldn't agree more that modern society is fucked beyond repair.  We can never go back and what in hell is the way forward?




ever see the movie 'titanic'?

there are 2 choices: be one of the assholes throwing women and children out of life boats

or be one of the orchestra who plays as the ship goes down.

we were probably all brought up by hopeful parents ...

but the fact of the matter is most humans have had pretty rough lives

must have been great to help build the pyramids, the great wall of china, be worked to death by Stalin, be a coal miner, etc etc most have no real choice or opportunity through out the history of 'civilization',
the idea that injustice is some recent mistake of western capitalism, and that otherwise all would be fine, is simply very wrong as far as I can see.

What has happened, that is new, is that capitalism combined with uncontrolled birthrate, and technology,(first the steam & electrical revolutions, then the gasoline: (car, train, truck, plane), then after WWII the chemical revolution, then nuclear, then more plastic, then information -internet, and on into GMOS, cloning, RFID chips, hacking, DNA data base, electronic finance, drone warfare, robo warfare, spy satellites, mono culture of pesticide addicted food crops from monsanto, and so on) has created a planetary wide mess and current ongoing mass extinction that may well mean insects, bacteria, & viruses reemerge as the dominant life forms, for a while.

I have pictures of plow and work horses on a grandfather's farm, just about 100 years ago. After a million years of hominid evolution, and five thousand years of history, the earth was relatively undisturbed, except for the few (easy to hunt)species we exterminated where ever we went. But the last hundred years is all it has taken to create planetary wide havoc.

So I think 'civilization' can't be separated from technology. In "20,000 leagues under the sea" by Jules Verne published in 1870, he foresaw a weapon like the A-bomb, and had the protagonist destroy himself rather than let 'humanity' (talk about an ironic word) get hold of it.

Unfortunately in real life it hasn't worked out that way. We have abused every power, and gift we have been given.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23613747 - 09/05/16 04:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

dark, very dark.
but that is the essence of attitude - right.
you latch onto a view, and wear it.
you take a role, and play it.

in this case the view is that society is a sinking Titanic.
if that is the case and we have only 2 choices, well, then I would play in the band.

but it is a dark dark attitude to put me there.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23614154 - 09/05/16 09:03 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
the idea that injustice is some recent mistake of western capitalism, and that otherwise all would be fine, is simply very wrong as far as I can see.




Oh, I agree completely.  One could make the case that really, since the agricultural revolution the differences between different societies under the umbrella of civilization were cosmetic.  I think there are more than a few parallels between modern society and antiquity.  At least in an anthropological sense, we are very similar in a lot of ways to ancient Rome, for example.

Capitalism is the just the flavor of a couple of centuries.

Quote:

What has happened, that is new, is that capitalism combined with uncontrolled birthrate, and technology,(first the steam & electrical revolutions, then the gasoline: (car, train, truck, plane), then after WWII the chemical revolution, then nuclear, then more plastic, then information -internet, and on into GMOS, cloning, RFID chips, hacking, DNA data base, electronic finance, drone warfare, robo warfare, spy satellites, mono culture of pesticide addicted food crops from monsanto, and so on) has created a planetary wide mess and current ongoing mass extinction that may well mean insects, bacteria, & viruses reemerge as the dominant life forms, for a while.

I have pictures of plow and work horses on a grandfather's farm, just about 100 years ago. After a million years of hominid evolution, and five thousand years of history, the earth was relatively undisturbed, except for the few (easy to hunt)species we exterminated where ever we went. But the last hundred years is all it has taken to create planetary wide havoc.




Yes, as you say we are embroiled in the Sixth extinction event.  And somehow people try to claim everything is just fine.

Quote:

So I think 'civilization' can't be separated from technology. In "20,000 leagues under the sea" by Jules Verne published in 1870, he foresaw a weapon like the A-bomb, and had the protagonist destroy himself rather than let 'humanity' (talk about an ironic word) get hold of it.

Unfortunately in real life it hasn't worked out that way. We have abused every power, and gift we have been given.




I agree, technology has always been a dominant co-evolving force, and never more so than in the twentieth century and today.  And soon enough technology will be dictating how we orchestrate our economy at a basic level -- if it hasn't happened already.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23614326 - 09/05/16 10:25 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
dark, very dark.
but that is the essence of attitude - right.
you latch onto a view, and wear it.
you take a role, and play it.

in this case the view is that society is a sinking Titanic.
if that is the case and we have only 2 choices, well, then I would play in the band.

but it is a dark dark attitude to put me there.




'dark' -  yes

not that 'society' is sinking,
but that both physical systems
and biological systems across species
are way out of wack
in ways that can't be 'put back in the box'
and the consequences are out of control

but is it 'a dark dark attitude'?
we all already know we are dying, already, etc ... the whole Buddist rap.
it is only thru some seriousness, is it not? that
we give some structure to our lives beyond pleasure seeking
and nepotism.

perhaps it depends on whether we play grimly in the band,
being self conscious about being noble,
or actually 'get into it' and have a merry time of it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23614667 - 09/05/16 12:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

merrily play in the band floats my version


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23619790 - 09/06/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Its advanced to the degree of the amount of quality in society that you rate as good vs bad...or right vs wrong.. So if you can be about 70% of yourself around other people..but at home your 100.. than you have come to terms with 70% of society..and we are that advanced therefore!


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23623980 - 09/07/16 10:05 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The fact that we're even able to sit here and discuss this in our air-conditioned apartments and sitting in our lazy boys makes our life experience ten million times better than many of those who lived in the past, and some who live in the present.

We can actually control the temperature of the atmosphere in our residences.  We can travel long distances without riding a horse. 

We take our conveniences for granted and all-in-all, I think that the average life experience of a human in this day and age is far happier or comfortable than at any other point in history.


Might seem off-topic, but I would like to allude to 9/11 conspiracy theories for example.  I don't take sides on whether 9/11 was an "inside job", but the fact that people become obsessed with the thought that their government might have engaged in a false flag operation horrifies them, and makes them think we're living in some dystopian hell. 

In many past regimes not that long ago, you could be hung, drawn and quartered just for speaking out against the king or other authority figure.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23624093 - 09/07/16 10:32 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Or maybe we're just spoiled. :shrug:

Can you demonstrate the average person today is happier than someone living a hundred years ago?  Five hundred?  Ten thousand?  How would you know?  A case can be made either way, neither with empirical evidence.  More conveniences does not necessarily mean happier.


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23624104 - 09/07/16 10:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I agree.  But it's only because humans adapt to where it is harder for them to be happy when they have more external resources at their disposal to make them happy.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23624120 - 09/07/16 10:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I don't equate simplicity or primitiveness with unhappiness, but you may and that's okay.


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23624131 - 09/07/16 10:38 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:


We take our conveniences for granted and all-in-all, I think that the average life experience of a human in this day and age is far happier or comfortable than at any other point in history.

.




Quote:


I agree.  But it's only because humans adapt to where it is harder for them to be happy when they have more external resources at their disposal to make them happy.





I might have contradicted myself with careless wording there.  But I think it's obvious that humans have more tools to seek happiness nowadays than they did in the past. Part of the problem I think is an inner conflict between seeking happiness, and then finding a purpose to live when there's no more happiness to seek.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23624139 - 09/07/16 10:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps.  Interesting point.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23624152 - 09/07/16 10:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe it is to be found that when one stops seeking, one realizes they had everything they needed all along, fundamentally?


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23624197 - 09/07/16 10:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah I mean, one thing I might interject is to define happiness (although you might have already done that earlier in the thread and I'm too lazy to look right now), but I see your point in that having more conveniences does not equate to more happiness, that's clearly not hard to understand.  What I was getting at earlier is that people more tools to achieve happiness now, and they could achieve it if they would simply use those tools.


As our simpler needs/desires are fulfilled though, they become replaced with more complex ones.  I think that to a large extent, our needs for food/shelter have been replaced with needs for things like social status, attention, etc.  In a way it's sort of like an equilibrium.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23624211 - 09/07/16 10:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
Yeah I mean, one thing I might interject is to define happiness (although you might have already done that earlier in the thread and I'm too lazy to look right now), but I see your point in that having more conveniences does not equate to more happiness, that's clearly not hard to understand.  What I was getting at earlier is that people more tools to achieve happiness now, and they could achieve it if they would simply use those tools.


As our simpler needs/desires are fulfilled though, they become replaced with more complex ones.  I think that to a large extent, our needs for food/shelter have been replaced with needs for things like social status, attention, etc.  In a way it's sort of like an equilibrium.




I think those are very good points. :thumbup:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23624728 - 09/08/16 04:39 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

did I ever mention basic unsatisfactoriness?
though our society is more forgiving and provides more options for more fulfillment, our selves are as they always have been.


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