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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Is civilization really advanced? * 2
    #23608057 - 09/03/16 01:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Human civilization at this point is a cluster-fuck.  Who cares how advanced it is?  The question is: What is the nature and quality of people's existential lives?  Are people getting happier over time?  Looking around at the global situation, it would seem that quality of life is being negatively impacted for most as the population spirals.

So the question is:  How advanced are we really as a species?  We have these fabulous technologies, but as I mention quality of life has grown poorer per capita, it would certainly seem, for the vast majority.  In fact, most people in the third world do not even have access to most of these technologies, and we're talking billions of people here.  Have we taken one step forward and two steps back?

I think this quote is apropos:

Quote:

"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase.  This is as true of humans in the finite space of a planetary ecosystem as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask.  The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who do survive."  --Frank Herbert




What are your thoughts?


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23608127 - 09/03/16 01:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I think of it as a continuum that offers different advantages and different restraints along the line.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23608245 - 09/03/16 02:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I come into contact with a lot of different people in my job. As a whole, most of the people I've run into are happy, sane, and rational most of the time. There are only a tiny handful that I can list on one hand that I ever thought might be legitimately bad people/irrational/violent/etc.

People in the third world have it worse, no doubt. There is a huge amount of pain and suffering in Africa, South America, the middle east, and parts of Asia. On the other hand, many of these countries have a middle class that is at least struggling to be happy if not actually succeeding.

Then there's the question of what makes people happy. I knew a guy once who loved work more than anyone I have ever seen love work. To him, the perfect life would involve nothing but work. I imagine a guy like him would do extremely well for himself even in a third world country. The dude worked factories and assembly lines and backroom stocking and janitorial work, and he loved every minute of it and was always asking for more. He had multiple jobs not because he needed the money but because he wanted to spend as much of his time working as possible. That kind of guy will be happy anywhere.

The prospects for humanity in the long run are also good. We're getting less violent, lower violent crime rates, having fewer wars, and we've finally got a successful commercial space industry driving down the cost of spaceflight. Prohibition is slowly slowly coming to an end, both legit police abuse and people abusing/lying about the police is coming to light and being addressed now more than ever. More people live in functional democracies today than at any other time. Third world countries are slowly, slowly developing into something not as shitty with larger middle classes and better political systems.

If you look at the trajectory as a whole, I think we're on a damn good path.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23608858 - 09/03/16 06:07 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Human civilization at this point is a cluster-fuck.  Who cares how advanced it is?  The question is: What is the nature and quality of people's existential lives?  Are people getting happier over time?  Looking around at the global situation, it would seem that quality of life is being negatively impacted for most as the population spirals.

So the question is:  How advanced are we really as a species?  We have these fabulous technologies, but as I mention quality of life has grown poorer per capita, it would certainly seem, for the vast majority.  In fact, most people in the third world do not even have access to most of these technologies, and we're talking billions of people here.  Have we taken one step forward and two steps back?

I think this quote is apropos:

Quote:

"Beyond a critical point within a finite space, freedom diminishes as numbers increase.  This is as true of humans in the finite space of a planetary ecosystem as it is of gas molecules in a sealed flask.  The human question is not how many can possibly survive within the system, but what kind of existence is possible for those who do survive."  --Frank Herbert




What are your thoughts?




I cannot rescue you from your conclusions.

never read the book but the title comes to mind:


"I never promised you a rose garden"

I grew up on distopian early science fiction

Brave new world

1984

maybe not Sf

Darkness at noon

The stranger

on the beach ... SF ... maybe

so I am not surprised

of course my dad thought

sf wasn't real "literature"

unfortunately i suspect time will show differently ...


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23609061 - 09/03/16 07:22 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Your first paragraph DQ. That nails it for me.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23609307 - 09/03/16 08:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Your first paragraph DQ. That nails it for me.




:thumbup:


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23609339 - 09/03/16 08:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Consciousness expansion is the answer.


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23609420 - 09/03/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
What are your thoughts?




I think civilization right now is pretty good if you're built for it. Same as it ever was.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
    #23609465 - 09/03/16 09:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
What are your thoughts?




I think civilization right now is pretty good if you're built for it. Same as it ever was.




You don't think a lot of people are left out?  Domestically?  Internationally?


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23609476 - 09/03/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

i think lots of people have always been left out and only a handful can be said to be truly built for a society. because a society will award those who are built for it and leave everyone else picking up what is left.

one could say we are trending towards a global society because of our interconnected commerce
and in that sense the scale changes but not the same basic principle IMO


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
    #23609488 - 09/03/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It's no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society.
--Jiddu Krishnamurti


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23609505 - 09/03/16 09:36 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Show me a healthy society :satansmoking:

Relative health doesn't count IMO because being the least sick doesn't mean you aren't sick :smile:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
    #23609510 - 09/03/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

One of the few indigenous tribes that still exists in the world. I (and DQ is an expert I believe) have researched them extensively, and they look pretty damn healthy to me, as far as the human condition goes.

Ever seen how much they talk, laugh, joke and smile when filmed? I work in the heart of one of the biggest cities in the world and it's the antithesis.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23609531 - 09/03/16 09:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I studied indigenous tribes for a while too and found much to admire. Only saw one that had me convinced they were living it right the Pirahã. That is until they too were wooed by fancy goods. Then I knew it wasn't as good as it sounded. Otherwise they wouldn't be suckered in like the rest of us. They were looking for reprieve too. And last I heard it's going to shit for 'em.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Kickle]
    #23609621 - 09/03/16 10:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I respect your point, Kickle, and you're right -- aboriginal peoples are often seduced by the ways of civilization.  The !Kung are one example of hangers-on, though.  It's amusing to see a bushman out there with his spear and paraphernalia wearing a Michael Jordan Nike tee-shirt.  Some become spoiled and others don't.  But the threat of obliteration of this type of society by a sprawling global society is very real.

All I can say is, in my day-to-day life all I see is malfunction everywhere.  I think our system works pitifully poorly at taking care of people, and the only ones who are really free to do what they wish with impunity are the upper .1%, for whom the system has become uncannily tailored.  I think things are working badly on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

But I appreciate your perspective, and am heartened to know that it seems you've found a niche for yourself.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23609652 - 09/03/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I think our system works pitifully poorly at taking care of people



This is my real gripe. We live in a system where profits are #1, and the mental health of the populous are #163 or something.

Still, I've come to expect little other than paradox from this crazy world, and paradox it most certainly is.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23609670 - 09/03/16 10:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

True.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: nooneman]
    #23610105 - 09/04/16 02:59 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The prospects for humanity in the long run are also good. We're getting less violent, lower violent crime rates, having fewer wars,




and you get this information from where?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: nooneman]
    #23610313 - 09/04/16 06:38 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Human civilization at this point is a cluster-fuck.  Who cares how advanced it is?  The question is: What is the nature and quality of people's existential lives?...




Quote:

nooneman said:
I come into contact with a lot of different people in my job. As a whole, most of the people I've run into are happy, sane, and rational most of the time. There are only a tiny handful that I can list on one hand that I ever thought might be legitimately bad people/irrational/violent/etc.

People in the third world have it worse, no doubt. There is a huge amount of pain and suffering in Africa, South America, the middle east, and parts of Asia. On the other hand, many of these countries have a middle class that is at least struggling to be happy if not actually succeeding.

Then there's the question of what makes people happy. I knew a guy once who loved work more than anyone I have ever seen love work. To him, the perfect life would involve nothing but work. I imagine a guy like him would do extremely well for himself even in a third world country. The dude worked factories and assembly lines and backroom stocking and janitorial work, and he loved every minute of it and was always asking for more. He had multiple jobs not because he needed the money but because he wanted to spend as much of his time working as possible. That kind of guy will be happy anywhere.

The prospects for humanity in the long run are also good. We're getting less violent, lower violent crime rates, having fewer wars, and we've finally got a successful commercial space industry driving down the cost of spaceflight. Prohibition is slowly slowly coming to an end, both legit police abuse and people abusing/lying about the police is coming to light and being addressed now more than ever. More people live in functional democracies today than at any other time. Third world countries are slowly, slowly developing into something not as shitty with larger middle classes and better political systems.

If you look at the trajectory as a whole, I think we're on a damn good path.





I might add that the quality of each person's existential lives is mostly dependent upon their attitude which is not in scope of what society can control.

we have the freedom to express the attitude we want as well as the freedom to allow our attitude to be the messy fermented bag of psychodramatic knee jerk reactions that is the norm. (for instance some poor people are delightful and many rich people are completely depressed and hopeless)

it's one thing to allow societal control into the bedroom (i.e. what sex is OK), but inside our heads every waking moment of our day, not so easy.

Most people have no idea what is in their head, so society has no chance at all in regulating it.

then again,
this is subject to change
after smartphones and self driving flying cars - why not have brainwave detection and automatic adjustment (I shudder to imagine)


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Is civilization really advanced? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23610402 - 09/04/16 07:16 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I respect your point, Kickle, and you're right -- aboriginal peoples are often seduced by the ways of civilization.  The !Kung are one example of hangers-on, though.  It's amusing to see a bushman out there with his spear and paraphernalia wearing a Michael Jordan Nike tee-shirt.  Some become spoiled and others don't.  But the threat of obliteration of this type of society by a sprawling global society is very real.

All I can say is, in my day-to-day life all I see is malfunction everywhere.  I think our system works pitifully poorly at taking care of people, and the only ones who are really free to do what they wish with impunity are the upper .1%, for whom the system has become uncannily tailored.  I think things are working badly on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.

But I appreciate your perspective, and am heartened to know that it seems you've found a niche for yourself.




And I'd have to argue that life has never allowed anyone to really be free to do what they want with impunity. Society is largely a coping mechanism for life IMO, a way to try and maximize the benefits while minimizing the pitfalls. But I also agree that it's effectiveness is skewed in favor of some more than others. That's been the story for many societies over time it seems. So it's a system that historically seems more stable than any other in many regards.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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