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OfflineHippocampus
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Registered: 04/01/15
Posts: 753
Last seen: 7 years, 16 days
Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23588936 - 08/29/16 01:20 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:


Quote:

Hippocampus said:
I guess some people are manipulated by narratives of altruism.  I certainly was in 2003.  I supported the Iraq invasion then.  I believed all the hype about WMDs and evil Saddam.




I didn't because I was well informed.  It was known to anyone who care to know that Iraq did not have WMD's, nor would have have used them on anyone if they did.  Saddam had a very complicated relationship with the U.S., but that doesn't change the fact that we betrayed him completely and caused the deaths of millions of Iraqis.  Our actions there are unforgivable.





I can't say I was the most well informed person on the subject back then.  But I thought the Bush folks manipulated the public by falsely claiming they had evidence of WMD when they didn't.  But the truth only came out years after the invasion.  Then there was the time he gassed some Kurds.  It seemed plausible, especially with the government saying they had evidence.  How could anyone be so sure he didn't at the time? 

I do remember there was some Washington Post article warning that an Iraq invasion would be a terrible decision and it could turn into another Vietnam.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,851
Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: Hippocampus]
    #23589262 - 08/29/16 07:58 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Hippocampus said:
I can't say I was the most well informed person on the subject back then.  But I thought the Bush folks manipulated the public by falsely claiming they had evidence of WMD when they didn't.  But the truth only came out years after the invasion.  Then there was the time he gassed some Kurds.  It seemed plausible, especially with the government saying they had evidence.  How could anyone be so sure he didn't at the time? 

I do remember there was some Washington Post article warning that an Iraq invasion would be a terrible decision and it could turn into another Vietnam.




Well, there were some (in international relations circles) who were saying yes, the WMD story was probably fabricated.  Sorry, I don't have any sources on that.  But the Bush administration was hell-bent on getting back into Iraq, both for the oil and to topple Saddam.  To myself and others, the WMD story sounded like pretty weak sauce.

I could write a novel for you about the history between Iraq and the U.S., but Saddam gassing Kurds was irrelevant.  The U.S. was allied (closely) with Iraq from about 1980-1991.  Saddam engaged in all sorts of nefarious atrocities, meanwhile Uncle Sam bankrolled him and sent weapons the whole time.  When it no longer suited our interests to remain allied with Iraq, we turned on them without any warning.  So you see, the notion that we were outraged by some atrocities is complete bullshit.

The relationship historically with Iraq is not a simple one.

And yes, the Iraq invasion has turned into another (smaller) Vietnam.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: quinn]
    #23589266 - 08/29/16 08:00 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry for the confusion, quinn. :peace:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Invisiblequinn
some kinda love
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Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23589279 - 08/29/16 08:06 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

that's ok i thought it was extremely funny for some reason :cookiemonster:


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dripping with fantasy

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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: quinn]
    #23589788 - 08/29/16 11:49 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

And yes, the Iraq invasion has turned into another (smaller) Vietnam.




you're damn right it was.

Korean War, and Vietnam War and Iraq War all seem rather comparable.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23589833 - 08/29/16 12:13 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I agree.  None of those wars was a "life and death" war, like the world wars were.  We had political reasons for fighting them, but there was no immediate threat to our shores.  And as time goes on they seem to get phonier and phonier.

Vietnam was just a fucking tragedy.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23589887 - 08/29/16 12:33 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

i know. that's my shit.

we all know WW1 & 2 so strongly, i feel an attachment already, and i haven't really even studied it much (though i will be reading Naked and the Dead at some point soon) -- and Iraq, well, that happened in the middle of everything, with my growing up i didn't pay too much attention to it all. mostly just mocked it all. (though 9/11, that was fucking terrible, even i, at my age, was like wow, this is fucked, hearing about it on the bus-ride back home from school)

but Vietnam, i am most attached to it. i just finished Bamboo Bed not too long ago. really good novel. really nails the senseless surreal of the Viet. i am picking up Embers Of War soon, that's supposedly a very good read. i want to know more, it seems to me, from what i've seen from documentaries and articles, and the like, that Vietnam was the most flagrant piece of shit war this side of history; to partake in with fighting and to plan.

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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23589909 - 08/29/16 12:37 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:...Vietnam was the most flagrant piece of shit war this side of history; to partake in with fighting and to plan.




That's correct, imo.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23589963 - 08/29/16 12:56 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

and meh, i think you can, indeed (despite what nationalists might presuppose shouldn't be considered nowadays, for whatever reason) extrapolate alot of how the western mind operates, in certain conditions, by looking at the Vietnam war...i'd imagine, it'd even pertain more to the Iraq side of things too, but i am kinda...new on that front. it's all very interesting, as usual. i said just a moment ago...

Quote:

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
it seems outside of school the disruptive kids never get taken out of class, figuratively speaking. hmmm.








in some cases, it seems, these kids get given special programs to operate in, such as war...among other things.

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Offlinetump
ban the undead
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Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 7 years, 20 days
Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: akira_akuma]
    #23592227 - 08/30/16 01:25 AM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Dont see it

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OfflineCrumist
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I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 11/02/13
Posts: 781
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #23595895 - 08/30/16 11:11 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Im disappointed there is so little interest in WWI. A perfect example of the stupidity and futility of
violent conflict. WWII is a children's morality play by comparison.

Fun fact: US congress did an investigation (Nye Committee) and resolved that US involvement in WWI was the
result of bankers and war profiteers hijacking our sons for the benefit of their purses.
Imagine congress formally accusing Exxon-Mobile for Iraq II


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704

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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: Crumist]
    #23595917 - 08/30/16 11:19 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

oh my interest now, is only the beginning. i am direly interested in eventually getting to the history of WW1. i'm definitely not trying to underplay it. :yesnod:

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Offlinesprinkles
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Registered: 10/13/12
Posts: 21,527
Loc: washington state Flag
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23595951 - 08/30/16 11:35 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

fuck the government.  fuck them to death.  stupid ass trade embargo bullshit.  you know they are smoking cuban cigars  :noway2:


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