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Offlinemegalomando
Musician LaLa La La

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 40
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Beer grain OK for growing medium?
    #2359495 - 02/20/04 03:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hi,

I've read about the different substrates like birdseed, rice & rye to grow on. I wonder if anyone's used the grain you use to brew beer? I've got some red wheat & several kinds of two row barley that's been malted (Same stuff used in commercial breweries to make beer from).

I don't suspect the adjunct grains like high levibond varieties would be as good in that the conversion to non-fermentable dextrins is pretty high with these. No idea how the shrooms would see these.

Any brewers / mycologists out there who've tried these grains?

Thanks


--------------------
From The sacred clan of the Indol Ring enters the
Claviceps Purpurea fungi to enlighten all seekers of truth.



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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: megalomando]
    #2359997 - 02/20/04 05:03 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I've supplemented malted rye and malted wheat (ground up as flour) to PF cakes (replacing a portion of the rice flour). I had explosive mycellium growth, so much that when I left them alone for a day and left the incubation container heated they overheated and died (this never happened with just BRF only - the spores used were Cambodian). I've never tried just malted grains - but I'm actually getting ready to try this in the next couple of weeks.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinemegalomando
Musician LaLa La La

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 40
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: Evolving]
    #2369602 - 02/22/04 10:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It'll be interesting to see how well it does for you. I've got 40 pounds or more of a two row barley I have to throw away because of it getting infested late last year with tiny moths. I filled the container with CO2 & suffocated them then made a brew later with the grain that was just fine. The larvae really didn't do much damage overall but the grain was old so it's time to replace it with new grain.

Let us know how the malted grain works for you. If it works well that would be nice news.


--------------------
From The sacred clan of the Indol Ring enters the
Claviceps Purpurea fungi to enlighten all seekers of truth.



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Offlineamyloid
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Registered: 03/08/03
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Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: Evolving]
    #2369762 - 02/22/04 11:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

>>I had explosive mycellium growth, so much that when I left them alone for a day and left the incubation container heated they overheated and died

are you saying the growth rate, and the reason it died from being overheated are related?


--------------------
"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: amyloid]
    #2370252 - 02/23/04 01:20 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I believe so. I have noticed that when colonization is in full swing that the process does generate some heat. I have never had problems with overheating when I didn't use malted grain.

In case you don't know, grain is malted by moistening it and maintaining an environment where the grains can sprout. During the sprouting process, enzymes are produced which convert complex carbohydrates to more simple carbohydrates and sugars and break down proteins to more simple structures. At the peak of the sprouting (or malting) when most of the carbohydrates and proteins have been converted but before major growth takes place, the sprouts are heated in a low temperature oven or kiln to halt the process and dry the malt. These simpler molecules created in the malting process are more easily utilized by the yeast and that is why malting of grain is used in the brewing process.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinemegalomando
Musician LaLa La La

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 40
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: Evolving]
    #2371372 - 02/23/04 12:11 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Hi Evolving,

You said:
"In case you don't know, grain is malted by moistening it and maintaining an environment where the grains can sprout. During the sprouting process, enzymes are produced which convert complex carbohydrates to more simple carbohydrates and sugars and break down proteins to more simple structures. At the peak of the sprouting (or malting) when most of the carbohydrates and proteins have been converted but before major growth takes place, the sprouts are heated in a low temperature oven or kiln to halt the process and dry the malt. These simpler molecules created in the malting process are more easily utilized by the yeast and that is why malting of grain is used in the brewing process."
------------------------------------

That's quite right & well said. The real imapct of the enzymes comes during the mashing process where sugars are extracted from the grain in water at specific temperatures so the sugars can be fermented). {No conversion to sugar & there's no fermentation because grain can't be fermented)I'm not sure how much sugar is created during the malting process but some is definately. Most of what's created are simple carbohydrates so those enzymes can do their work at lower temps (like between 120 and 155 degrees F). In sterilizing the grain there won't be any conversion done due to the high heat & denaturing the enzymes.

Sounds like you already know all of this Evolving but I'm mentioning it here so other readers can have an idea what we're talking about.


It'll be interesting to see how your results are if you use the grain again. I have some new Munton & Fison British 2-Row as well as some new Red Wheat. The wheat has so many proteins which agglutinate under heat, I wonder if it would make a poor substrate & end up more like a hockey puck? If so it wouldn't allow as much moisture & aeration as grains with husks. I don't know how much of the protein would be an asset to shroom growth. The 2-Row barley I have is quite delicious and almost sweet.

One of the things I wasn't sure about is how well shrooms would do with unfermentable dextrins and there would be some of these present after the grain is malted. Those are not not a normal part of grain & raw grain is starch & protein. OTOH, they love malt agar to grow on with the agar being protein & the malt being sugar. Interesting possibilities.

Perhaps if I were to put some un-crushed 2-Row in with the wheat there would be higher protein value to the substrate and a good source of simple carbohydrates while at the same time reducing the density of those carbohydrates & thus generating less heat?

What volume was your substrate that the temperature got so high? I would think a smaller amount would tend to be cooler. Probably the thickness of the substrate would be of importance too.

It'll be interesting to hear how your second try goes, I'm about to do my first grow in years & would like to use these grains if they're worthy and on hand.


--------------------
From The sacred clan of the Indol Ring enters the
Claviceps Purpurea fungi to enlighten all seekers of truth.



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Invisiblehevvy_psi
groover

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 10,446
Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: megalomando]
    #2371388 - 02/23/04 12:19 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

this is interesting reading...are malted grains readily available to the layman?


--------------------
egocentrism is bangin on the door
self-destructive selflessness
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i'm curled on the floor
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InvisiblePrisoner#1M
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Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: hevvy_psi]
    #2371427 - 02/23/04 12:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

there are alot of micro-breweries, resturant-brewerys and home brewers that will supply you as much as you want...


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Offlinemegalomando
Musician LaLa La La

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 40
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: hevvy_psi]
    #2371446 - 02/23/04 12:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

absolutely,

That's what all beers start from. If you read about beer making & especially homebrewing you'll read about all grain recipes. The majority of the grain in those recipes are this kind of grain.

There's some grains that have been roasted &/or otherwise dealt with before the brewer gets it which adds a burnt flavor or certain color. Those are "adjunct" grains and used for character but not for making sugars from & they do nothing to increase the alcohol.

Look in your local telephone book under homebrew shops or under wine & beer making supplies. or on the web.
Northern Brewer
Beer Beer & more beer

Here's just a couple of places on the web but I like to buy from the local homebrew shops from the phone directory because I like to support smaller guys. Northernbrewer started real small and have been good to their customers. Beer beer & more beer is large but has a huge selection.

If you're getting like 50 pounds expect to pay around $50 US and if you go by the pound & pay for shipping it's kind of high pricing. Go local & save the hassle.


--------------------
From The sacred clan of the Indol Ring enters the
Claviceps Purpurea fungi to enlighten all seekers of truth.



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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: megalomando]
    #2371642 - 02/23/04 01:27 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

megalomando said:
What volume was your substrate that the temperature got so high?



I was using the malted grains ground to a flour in PF style cakes. The cakes were in Glad Ware 3 1/8 cup containers (yes they do stand up to pressure cooking). The sustrate was about 1 1/2 inches deep and the containers are 6 inches square.

I should tell you that I gave a couple of pounds of the malted grain (1 pound of malted wheat and 1 pound of malted rye) to another shroomerite who tried to use them unground like you would wild bird seed. This posed some problems for him, getting the water content right was a bitch and he ended up with bacterial contamination. I think the wheat also posed some problems for him with clumping (this may have been potentiated by problems with the water content). If I were to use the grains whole, I would probably mix in some verm to help balance out the water ratios and to also help keep things from sticking together. I'll pm my friend and see if he can offer some more info on his experiences.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinemegalomando
Musician LaLa La La

Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 40
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: Evolving]
    #2372621 - 02/23/04 05:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Evolving said:
Quote:

I think the wheat also posed some problems for him with clumping (this may have been potentiated by problems with the water content).




I suspect you'll find a big part of the clumping was from the high amount of proteins in the wheat. If you take 15 grains of wheat and chew them & don't swallow, you'll end up with agglutinated proteins about the size & chewy character as a stick of gum.

If you heat the wheat enough to sterilize you'd likely have the same result. I'd think you'd do better with grinding the grain & wheat like you do for brewing (the vermiculite would be good too) and then use that & be sure not to stir or shake while hot.

Just a guess


--------------------
From The sacred clan of the Indol Ring enters the
Claviceps Purpurea fungi to enlighten all seekers of truth.



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Offlineaural
Hola Amigos!
Registered: 05/04/00
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Loc: The Desert In The Spring
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Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: megalomando]
    #2375153 - 02/24/04 10:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The one time I tried it using the same proportions of grain and water that I'd used for other grains,it came out way too gooey.I'd say if you have some it would be worth experimenting,but it's probably not worth going out and buying just for that purpose,since other cheaper grains work so well and are easily available.


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OfflineDrWho
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Registered: 01/08/04
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Re: Beer grain OK for growing medium? [Re: megalomando]
    #2375178 - 02/24/04 10:37 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

i brew all grain as well.

i imagine your spent grains would be more then sutible for growing.
killing 2 birds with one stone...

they dont need all those nutriants...
11 lbs of spent ghrain would make a wonderfull out door bed.


--------------------


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